TheCrew07

Not addressing the rotation would be a "terrible" idea for the Brewers... How exactly do the Brewers acquire something without giving it up? Hardy is hands down my favorite Brewer, but if he can get us a top of the rotation starter... send him packing. Is Greinke my guy? Not at all However, trading Hardy always comes down to the same thing for a few people and their dislike of a rising Escobar based on MLEs. Quit being to so freaking inflexible... X is a terrible stat, Y is a terrible trade... or maybe instead of being contradictory, you offer your own ideas and opinions for plugging holes instead crapping all over other's opinions. I've been around a long time and I don't recall you ever putting yourself on the line even once, maybe I missed it, but I do read this site pretty thoroughly. Mostly it's a 1 or 2 line post about why someone else's idea or opinion sucks. I'm not saying write a book like I do, I only do that because I have a hard time getting my thoughts and opinions down on paper, my point is that you have more to offer than simply being a bastion of negativity.

You know it's funny, cheating pushed me from Counter Strike to an MMRPG in Everquest (which I beta'd and played), cheating, ninja looting, loot whoring and general dishonesty surrounding the end game in EQ pushed me to COD, cheating in COD pushed me towards console gaming and the WOW beta (I haven't played the final but I really enjoyed the PVP in all stages of the beta). Cheating in Halo2 had me looking foward to GOW, to COD4, and now to GOW2. The older I get the more I like gaming on Xbox live, get in, have some fun, get out and get some other things done, but there's always another game coming that I'm intrigued by.

as long as there as has been video gaming, there have been people exploiting holes in the code to cheat to win.. Doesn't matter what type of game that's always been the case. I see it mostly FPS... like GOW where people were constantly out of the maps, chainsaw glitch, reload glitch, weapon sliding, etc.. in COD4 people glitch up on buildings where they aren't supposed to be, reload glitch, the same with Halo 2 except add in stand by and modding... It was way worse for the original FPS shooter games on the computer like Half Life (Counter Strike) and the original COD... People using wall hacks (see through walls) and auto aiming (head shots) were pretty rampant. I was an admin at one of the larger servers hosted nationally and these people ruined the games for me as I spent all my time banning people and didn't have time to play. The 360 hasn't been bad, but now people are buying those mod controllers, I come across a couple of mod controllers every day in COD4, I'd rather be good at something, than gimp my way to a level of achievement... like those clowns that hack the servers and modify their stats for games like COD4.

i think that's a realistic guess rluz.

Isn't that what clicking the baseballs is all about?

How exactly was Yo not going to directly to the bag? I've always hated how Fielder turns force outs into tag plays, and since the incident in Chicago I cringe every time he starts chugging towards the bag, it's recipe for disaster. Again, the fundamental play is to flip the ball to pitcher who's momentum is going directly towards the bag, and Yo was doing exactly what he's supposed to do. If he loses the foot race that's fine, there's little chance for a collision with 2 players running mostly parallel. However when you have 3 players converging on 1 spot, and one is a 300 LB monster coming across the path of the other 2 players, good things are not going to happen. I still think Yo had Johnson by a step, maybe half a step at the bag, which isn't much, but who is Fielder going to outrun anywhere? Prince charging the line set in motion the chain of events. Is/was that 1 out worth the risk? I don't believe it was, or ever is, and I especially hate unnecessary tags... take the easy force out and lets go to the dugout. Rluz and Roco, I think we're arguing 2 different sides of the same coin. I probably haven't been clear, I'm not suggesting Sheets doesn't have value, but I think all things being equal I'm taking the pitcher who I think is going to pitch more innings. Basically I'm arguing against the notion that it's reasonable to eat 25% or over pay for 75% of a season (depending on how you look at it) for a pitcher like Sheets who's very good when healthy, but you know is going to hit the DL or miss a couple of starts every couple of months. I've yet to see a contract structured based on 75% of the season for an off season deal. He's still being paid to take the ball every 5th day, so the point I'm trying to make is that I would rather the Brewers not resign Sheets knowing that there's X amount of dollars in dead money before the season even starts. It's not not dead money in the sense that he's not going to earn it, just that the average cost per start escalates past what he's actually worth. Does that make sense? I'm not sure how to articulate exactly what I mean.

I'm sorry, but this is just not right. Yo got hurt by putting himself in harm's way. Seriously, go watch that replay (not that you haven't ) -- the thing that pops into my head every time I see that entire play is, 'What the hell is Gallardo doing?' I shouldn't have brought it up... sorry for taking this more off track but I have to respond. I'll play that game, watch the video again, see where Yo is looking. He's humping his butt to the bag glances at the runner then notices Fielder is coming to make a diving tag (instead of the fundamental play which is a simple toss to the pitcher) he's already to Yo's left hand side so Yo has no where to go but through the runner to his right (who if he touches is interference) so he makes a bad decision and goes over the top. The only way Yo avoids a collision with Fielder or going through/over the runner is a Barry Sanders step back move, which maybe 2 or 3 professional running backs have done in my life time, it's pretty rare to be able to stop on a dime while in a full sprint. Prince hustling (which is commendable) has nothing to do with the series of poor decisions he made on that play. Looking at the angles (it's a football thing, pursuit) as the play develops, where was Yo supposed to go? Fundamentally speaking, Yo did everything you want a pitcher to do by breaking hard for the bag and beating the runner. Fundamentally on that play what did Fielder do correctly? The simple play is to field the ball and under hand toss towards the bag so Yo can catch the ball and get a foot on the bag before the runner, that's basic little league baseball, not like a wheel play or exaggerated shift. Sometimes effort can make up for poor decision making, but this was not one of those cases. Because the pitchers are far, far harder to find. Supply & demand Comparison relative talent? Basically, all that matters is the how many wins above average a player projects to be, compared to an average player at his position. And using 33 starts is not a reasonable baseline I get the supply and demand aspect of it, that's not the point, the point is perception. As to Russ's point, pitching is requires much greater skill and natural talent, so I understand that there's going to be bias towards pitchers, I actively post about building from the pitching staff down... I wouldn't argue that point at all. Pitchers only pitch every 5th day because of the demands of the job, I apply the same standards to a pitcher as I would a hitter, because they are still getting paid to be healthy and perform. I was comparing 162 to 120 for a position player, and 33 to 24 for a pitcher... roughly the maximum number of starts possible to what an effective yet relatively unhealthy player provides in a season. If you're arguing that 75 percent of the starts is a reasonable goal for a SP, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Do I expect them all to get 30 starts? Not at all, pulled muscles are a part of sports and pitching doesn't lend itself to "playing hurt", but I would expect 27 to 28 year in and year out. Again we aren't talking about average pitchers, we're talking about elite players, or are we not considering Sheets to be an elite player anymore? You're going back to comparisons vs league average and I'm talking about paying Sheets vs similar pitchers results wise. If I were going to sign an elite FA pitcher I'd have to count on 28+ starts if I'm the Brewers... if I'm signing a stop gap my expectations on performance and his stay in the rotation will depend greatly on how he performs.

Ennder you're still missing the point, SHEETS IS INJURY PRONE by any definition of injury prone. That's it, and that's all people have been trying to say. People are talking about past performance and you keep going to the future... the "well it's only been minor injuries" card. That may be true, but an avalanche of little injuries later the guy is still injury prone, and he'll still be injury prone in the future, because his past injury history is crappy. You might believe in "luck", I don't, and after 2 years I've grown weary of being told it's "bad luck" when does bad luck actually become a negative trend? After how many years? Maybe it's just me but I grew up believing in the military's saying "Once is an accident, Twice is a coincidence, the Third time it's enemy action". I've taken that same philosophy and applied it to sports, whether it's what my players are doing, aren't doing, or how often they are getting injured. There isn't going to be a third instance of any particular issue without a discussion taking place, the third time something happens it's shame on me. Growing up around sports some guys just aren't made to be healthy and some never do enough to get their bodies in shape enough to handle the rigors, and everyone is different, from Cappy, to Bush, to Sabathia, to David Wells... In my opinion all the evidence points towards the dam bursting for Sheets at some point. Maybe he gets a little bit more serious about fitness (not that he isn't, just making a point), but in general MLB pitchers are not the fittest athletes in the world which in my opinion combined with violent unnatural movements doesn't exactly paint a rosey picture of any pitcher's ability to stay healthy. I never said all MLB starters do go 200 innings, I wouldn't make a claim that outrageous, it wasn't my point at all. My point was if the Brewers are going to spend 15% or more of the payroll on a player, they can't miss, not even by 75% because all pitchers are the DL are equally useless at that point in time. The have to hit the signing out of the park, because there is no way Suppan is worth 1/9 of the payroll to be a 4 or 5 if he's on the DL, and it's an uphill climb to sell me on any one player being worth 25% of the payroll to participate in only 75% of his potential starts. Again, no I don't believe you treat a pitcher in their prime like you do a young arm building up strength in the middle of the injury nexus. There is no way the Brewers could afford Sheets to only pitch 170 innings after having Yo go down as the pen was on the edge of being overworked until Sabathia was acquired, and after that happened there was simply no way they wouldn't try to maximize the return for this season. Even if a pitcher in his prime would miss an entire year the following year you push them as far as they can go, in this case for as long as they can go to reach to playoffs. Once the Brewers made the move, there was no going back, and we can't have it both ways... I was generous taking 15 pitches from every start just for the sake of argument, but it was really more like 20 pitches from 4 or 5 different starts, which is equivalent to one good start. We aren't talking about being run up to 130 pitches for multiple starts in a row either. It's obvious you aren't going to accept that Yost wasn't the only one making decisions about Sheets health, but I know it to be true. I don't have any connections to the Brewers, but I do to other professional franchises/colleges and while the coach/manager may have the ultimate say, his opinions are based largely on what the training staff tells him, and to a much smaller degree what the player tells him. To me this no different than the complaining about Sabathia going deep into the one game when he had an extra days rest... like those 20 pitches were going to cost us the season? PAP is bunk, if you choose to except it, who am I tell to you what to believe, but there is no way you're going to convince me that 100 to 200 pitches max over a course of 80% the season was the straw that broke the camel's back. Again all PAP does is penalize the best players in the game because they are durable and effective... if you spend time on the DL or you suck, you simply aren't going to throw as many pitches in a season, so there's no way you'll be at the top of the PAP list. I think Sheets getting hurt is inevitable, and the injuries are only going to get worse unless something changes. I agree with your point about him pitching after the injury, but we don't have any concrete information either way what Yost was told or wasn't told. Of course pitchers with high PAP are going to get hurt, because eventually most every pitcher will have an extended stay on the DL at one point in time, it's inevitable for most pitchers. Ben got hurt because in addition to pitching very well, he's also made an art form out of coming down with the weirdest injuries known to man. Why not try assigning some of that blame on Sheets? Doesn't he also bear some responsibility? Is he in the same condition he was in 2004? Is he doing enough to keep his body going as he gets older? Was he completely honest with the team doctor and trainer? Did the team doctor correctly diagnose and predict the further injury risk? Etc, etc, etc. We have so little information that your position is pure speculation being passed off as fact in my opinion, we really don't know enough of the truth to comment on Yost's role at all. This isn't the first time this has happened with pitching in the organization, and starting with what's happened with Rogers I've become very skeptical of the Brewer's medical staff, especially when looking back at the past pitching failures. It's not that they don't have good intentions or are bad people, it's just that I'm beginning to lose the faith, in both the Brewers ability to draft good pitching and keep that pitching healthy through their first 10 years or so. What would you say about a position player that only averaged 120 games a year for a 4 year span? Would you consider him a full time and healthy player? Why is it acceptable for a starter to be paid more money than a position player of comparable relative talent to make 24 of 32/33 starts just because he's a pitcher? There's a double standard here that doesn't seem to be acknowledged.

If the pitching prospect was Neftali Feliz, I'd seriously consider it... but honestly if I'm Melvin dealing Fielder I want immediate help. Neimann + Townsend coming back, or a Shields/Santana/Cain/Marcum(pre injury) type coming back.

As far as Yo being injury prone goes... Yo didn't get hurt throwing, he got hurt by Fielder in my opinion, and I firmly believe that. Also, with that torn cartiledge in the knee he still would have made 30 starts. While Sheets hasn't had a major injury, I find the notion that he's not injury prone puzzling at best, he's the very definition of it. In the end why he wasn't on the mound only matters if you're trying to predict future performance, regardless of injury you aren't helping the team on the DL, doesn't matter if it's a broken leg or blister. He's gotten hurt every year since 2004, he's not unlucky anymore, sooner or later all of these minor/nagging injuries are going to lead to something big. It's time to quit arguing about injury severity when the point is really injury frequency... Would he earn his contract if he only pitched an average of 140 innings with good perphirals? Yea probably on the market a solid argument could be made that would be case. However, if the Brewers are signing any FA pitcher they need to be very comfortable in getting 200 innings a year out of the guy. Suppan's value to the Brewers is that he'll take the ball every 5th day, if that doesn't happen in 09 or 10 the Suppan signing will look horrible in a hurry. Burnette? No thanks. Sheets' absence has directly contributed to all 3 major Brewer slides over the last 4 seasons, nor did he pitch this post season, so it's not a stretch for people to say that he's never there when the team needs him. I wouldn't go that far, it's a tad extremist in my opinion, but I also said going into the playoffs I didn't trust him even he's healthy and that I would rather have Sabathia, Yo, Bush than any other combination of pitchers on the roster. I guess never have trusted Ben... he's not someone I feel good about, I'm always waiting for him to leave a start early, or waiting for him to groove that fastball that sets up the Brewers to lose 3-1 because the bottom of the order is even more horrible when he's pitching. He's always been great statistically, and I had the pleasure of being at 2 of his best games in 2004, and even though I've defended him against the "Teddy Sheets" crap for years now with my friends and family, I've just never felt good about the Brewers chances of winning when he's on the mound. As far as the abuse point... that's a stretch. If he pitches an average of 15 less pitches every game does he stay healthy, or does it delay the inevitable until the end of September? The whole "Yost ruined Sheets" notion is a very slippery slope to me, when there's not conclusive evidence about what causes pitching injuries... it's not like he's fine one day, and the next day he's broke... it's more likely the tissue simply wears down over time, in which case we're talking about delaying the inevitable. If a good starting pitcher shouldn't throw 100-115 pitches every time out where does it stop? Baseball hasn't changed so much that a team still doesn't need to get 6+ innings from a starting pitcher, there simply aren't enough roster spots to support enough pitchers for anything less. In the Brewers case, with the uneven perfomance out of the pen, going all in for the playoffs (which I never agreed with), it made sense for them to ride their best players as far as they could take them. The Crew won the wild card by 1 game, which games would any of us go back now and pull Sheets knowing 1 bad inning from a reliever would have put us in a 1 game playoff?

True enough, but I don't see anyone walking away from another 40 or so million garunteed. I'm all about hometown loyalty, but that's an incredible amount of money.

Who's a great pitcher? Shields? Because that's who he's roughly equal to.

kramnoj should be around shortly to restore our faith that everything is right with baseball...

That made my day, the best line in the entire thread.

If Braddock was the pitcher included I'd be down, it would probably also take Lucroy/Salome to make it work looking at their roster and system... Hardy, Hart, Braddock, Salome/Lucory for Peavy and Giles... that would be a tough trade for me personally and 3 of my favorite players in the system would get shipped, but it would improve the rotation and end up around a wash with the position players... better D all the way around, less offense at short and more in RF... edit. It pains me to say it but I'd throw in an A baller in Bowman or similar as well, just leave me Parra and Jeffress.

I think that was a pessimistic OBP/SLG

I've harped on my opinion about a lack of skill development on the minor league side a couple of times, I know I'm not alone in that opinion. All players have issues that need to be ironed out in the minors, it's just that most our top talent has defensive issues, issues which don't seem to make much progress from year to year, at least statistically. Gamel's improved defense this season is the first time I recall a meaningful reduction in errors from one year to the next going back to when I first started following the minors on this site. Salome, Braun, Fielder, Weeks, Hall (he not a good defensive player at any position including SS), Hart played 3 positions in 3 years... not a good track record by any standard. The only 2 good defenders were naturals from the start in Hardy and Escobar.

I keep seeing this notion about Parra being a 2 best case, but more likely a 3 and I have to ask based on what? How many lefties out there can legitimately run the ball up there in the mid 90s? Instead of throwing every breaking ball known to man he'd probably better served narrowing it down to 2 and refining those 2 pitches. However there is no way his physical talent is that of a 3 pitcher... maybe he's soft mentally, but I'm not ready to jump on that bandwagon after 1 year. I've already posted multiple times my opinion of why it's not a good idea to trade pitching from a system that doesn't have much pitching, and I've already posted how trading multiple players including big league talent for Peavy is most likely a net loss win share wise. These are simple concepts and either you haven't read the entire thread or you don't agree but to say you "don't understand"... well then you aren't even considering the alternative point of view or aren't trying very hard. Finally trading the organization's top pitching prospects behind Yo creates a void which vitually ensures the 3-5 spots are pitchers no better than Dave Bush for the next 2 years, maybe 3. Dumping Parra/Jeffress would leave Periard/Braddock and while anyone who follows the minor league side knows I'm personally high on those 2 kids, neither is a sure thing, nor is Jeffress. I'd like options with higher ceilings and miniscule contracts instead of Bush, Suppan, Suppanesque FA in 2010. Acquiring Peavy and another FA pitcher basically means that Peavy, Suppan, FA pitcher would account for roughly $32 million in 2009... Cameron's option would make it $42... meaning half of the payroll would be eaten up by 4 players, 3 of which are roughly league average, which to me isn't a very good way to construct a ball club.

You said the same thing about Volquez last year when the Reds traded Hamilton for him.

or this could be the first step towards a unified TV contract and level playing field, negating the market issue.

I was just coming to post what logan just said. How does trading 2 of our best arms for 1 arm make the Brewers a better team? The one thing the entire system lacks at this moment is top of the rotation pitching talent, so we're going to trade Parra and Jeffress for Peavy? I guess maybe some of our bats will convert and become pitchers? I'm sorry I just think trading pitching from a system that doesn't produce much for pitching is a horrible idea and a totally backwards way to assemble a capable roster. Trading away Parra and Jeffress essentially cements players no better than Bush in the 3 through 5 spots in the rotation for the next 3 years. While Peavy's contract is very reasonable this year and next, it begins to escalate rapidly... emptying the system of the top 2 pitchers behind Yo means there's no adequate replacements in case of injury or poor performance, and virtually ensures wasting more money on FA pitching. I just don't see how giving up 2 MLB players and a top prospect is good value for 30 games a year. I could live with a 3 way trade dumping Fielder for Peavy, but I don't think that's realistic, and I don't see how the Brewers match up with San Diego outside of a 3 way deal. If the the Rays are involved why not try to pull one of their stud pitchers and Neimann directly? Is the drop off from a Yo type pitcher to Peavy worth that much? Rluz takes quite a bit of crap about his 2 game theory when Sabathia was acquired, but historically that was pretty accurate. How many wins would be giving up from 3 players to acquire 2 or 3 more wins dropping from a Peavy to a Shields/Santana/whomever? Giving up 6 wins to acquire 3 wins doesn't seem like good value, it appears to be a net loss to me. I have no idea what the exact numbers would be without knowing the players involved, but I'm fairly confident that 6 wins a year is a pretty conservative estimate. I wasn't for acquiring Sabathia and my opinion on big name pitchers hasn't changed now that Peavy is available, they are way too expensive both in the relative cost to acquire them and the cost of their contracts to be yearly targets of the Brewers. Continually giving up top talent is the surest way to shorten the window, the Brewers simply will not be able to afford to sign all of their young players to long term contracts and will need a yearly influx of cheap talent to remain competitive.

I realize as a site we're on an OBP kick, but who's better today in this moment in time is not necessarily the same as who will be better in 2010 or 2011. I wasn't asking you about Cain vs Gillespie, I was asking you about Braun vs Gross. You have a huge a ceiling guy vs a solid/steady yet unspectacular player. I think the team needs both kind of players, but Gillespie doesn't scream starter to me anymore than Gross did. Gillespie could be a great bench player, in that I have no doubt. Again I'm not going out on a limb on Cain until after next year, but I feel good about him, and I also think that Gillespie will have a nice career as well.

Too bad for Steve, here's hoping for a successful recovery.

I don't see what CS% has to do with raw speed, Gillespie just picks his spots better... Gillespie had similar percentage to Ford in 2006 and blew him away this year... Ford is still one of the fastest guys in all of professional baseball while Gillespie is not. Cain's rawness has been well documented in various feature articles Mass has linked to. Gillespie was polished when drafted, and has been steady yet unspectacular his entire career, what you see is what you get from him. Cain is a true 5 tool prospect who's still learning how to play the game and his upside far beyond Gillespie's. Will Cain ever have the plate discipline of Gillespie? I doubt it... but will Braun ever walk as much as Gabe Gross per PA? Which player would you rather have?

Do have any linkage to support any of that? Gillespie has "VERY good speed? A guy who's stole just about the same number of bases every year in 18,16,17? Darren Ford he is not, and I'd venture a guess that there's no way he's faster than Cain who is one of the only 5 tool prospects in the system... Cain stole his fewest bases this season and easily eclipsed what Gillespie did. Gillespie's arm also will not play in RF, but Braun's will... so if it came down to it Cole could play LF with Braun in RF... that's assuming that Lucroy and Lawrie stay at catcher, Gamel stays in the IF and so on. Unfortunately for Cole he's always going to be the 4th or 5th best OF unless Melvin dumps 2 or 3 guys. He's more of a middle of the order hitter... 5th or 6th, than a lead off hitter in my opinion, if he were to start. Though he draws enough walks I'd consider him for a 2 hitter pending other options on the club at the time. Cain was drafted out of highschool very as a very raw 5 tool prospect, Gillespie as a polished college hitter, comparing their career paths thus far seems like a disservice to the truth. Brady Clark? Clancy you have some very different opinions... but that's out there even for you. Cain way too talented to be compared to Clark... my goodness. While Lo may flame out and never reach the majors, his ceiling is not Clarkesque. I'm not sure that Cain will ever be a great OBP guy, probably mid 300s someplace but he's someone I'm still very excited about.