TooLiveBrew

I agree, Pogo, I was merely debating his perceived value.

True, but we could get more than that, I guarantee you. He's a low-priced SP in the current economic climate. Almost any team would jump at the chance to add him (as we did) even though he's not without some blemishes. Look at what Melvin's gotten in the recent trades. If he couldn't get an everyday OFer for Vargas alone, I'd be shocked

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, as I'm too lazy to check, http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif , but I just bought Pete Yorn's new CD, and it's fantastic. I'm admittedly a big Yorn fan, as I knew of him and was thrilled prior to his official musicforthemorningafter release (an acquaintance of mine was a campus music rep/distributor for Sony, and had dozens of copies to pass out to local businesses to 'generate buzz' or whatever). Sorry, I don't wanna sound like "that guy" But I've been a fan of both his prior, and felt he improved upon a very good debut with 2003's Day I Forgot. He did so again with Nightcrawler, another impressive entry by the now consistent, no-longer-newcomer. Same day I picked up Mos Def's newest, True Magic. I don't know what was in the air that day, but honest to goodness, IMO, this is as good (if not better) than any hip-hop album I've ever heard. Ever - not exagerrating. Usually it takes a listen or five for me to feel comfortable thinking or stating something like that, but True Magic had me at "Hello" These are two must-haves, you can trust me on that!

Good point, Robert, and one I hadn't really considered. Our inability to acquire either Jon Lieber or Rodrigo Lopez using only one of Menchkins underscores to me (granted, that's my opinion - and I'm willing to admit the Lopez situation was equal parts lack of interest from us) that we would have to include prospects to get more than a reliever. I don't, as I stated, feel comfortable with shipping off the two young SPs mentioned to try for more. Futher, I don't see a need we could fill via a deal where Mench or Jenks is central. That's why I like Marte, but I honestly think he may be a little more pricey bc he's a lefty.

Not really, unless you're calling Baldelli our #3 slot hitter, which I can't tell for certain (and I hope not). The only other area where I may disagree is the idea of packaging both CV & ZJ. IMO it's unwise to deplete our youthful reserve of SPing so much. If Eveland were still around, I'd have less concern. Even if all CV & ZJ do is tread water for us until YoGa is both physically (he's so young -- I don't want to Priorwood him) and mentally ready for the show, they have great value.

Robert -- While I can respect your opinion on wanting more (or perhaps simply someone else) for Jenks, Damaso Marte is hardly a LOOGY. He threw 58.1 IP in 2006, with a 3.95 FIP, a K/BB ratio of 2.03, and an ERA+ of 121. Those are all very strong, and when you also consider his splits over the past 3 years: v. LH -- .209/.309/.300/.609 v. RH -- .257/.358/.429/.787 IMO it's pretty clear that Marte is better than just a one-out guy, and additionally, he'd be that final piece that I believe our BP needs. (and another hard-thrower)

Amen, future, amen.

hmmm..... I wonder if twobrewers roots for a small market team.... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm with you there, deuce-brew. There's really no other choice for our franchise, since we don't have the deep coffers to turn to if 'Red 36' doesn't catch that little silver ball...

Victor Santos, and Victor Santos only Really, I'd love either Salomon Torres or Damaso Marte, whose value is enhanced since he's a LHRP. So if that made him too 'pricey', I'd take Torres, and gladly pay up to half of Jenks's $7 mil.

But Pogo, I concur 100% with you that Hall is suffering from BF.net's backlash. He's a fine, fine player. If Overbay (great for him on that 4-yr. extension, it's hard to find a better guy in the Major Leagues than Lyle http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif ) can land us the trio he did, imagine what Hall can yield if we do eventually have to part ways with him.... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

First off, I'm glad to be the first to point out that this thread title is freakin'sweet! (I don't know the font color for Peter Griffin) I agree with most that this is a trade for the sake of shuffling some big names around, not really helping the Crew that much. That said, I like the creativity involved. I am a big believer in Ensberg, as I drool over guys with big power and top-notch plate discipline (101 BBs in an injury-shortened 2006 for Morgan). One last thought... Pogo, while you're clearly right about Baldelli, I disagree. Primarily because of your wording -- as I don't think Hall "easily" has more power. In fact, I'm not even sure he does have more pop than Ensberg. Could this comment have been influenced by Ensberg's injury woes in 2006? The guy can flat-out mash. I know he hasn't had a terribly impressive career. However, he's the definition (IMO) of a guy that would never get HOF consideration, yet make you go "Oh, yea! Ensberg was pretty dangerous when he was in his prime..." when we're watching those 2008ish highlights on YouTube in 25 years.

Good post, goat sucker (I can't believe that's not an outright insult...) Your support for Jenks is strong, and one thing no one has mentioned in this thread is Geoff's stellar D & arm in the OF. Granted, BF.net almost always ignores Defense when 'evaluating' players, but in this one-to-one comparison, that can be a solid tiebreaker, but then again so can the fact that Mench has historically feasted on LHP. Here's the reason Jenks's time is likely up: Hall, Hart, & Gross are a formidable starting OF, both offensively and defensively. Jenkins is not that pricey, but let's be honest, with the young talent in place, and a legitimate starting OF already in existence, the money can be better spent elsewhere, especially if trading Jenks can yield BP help, especially the LH kind.

I just hired an agent, had him contact 12 MLB teams, and let them know I'm interested in a one-year, $275,000 contract to play any position on the roster. My arm has limited mileage, and I have actually never struck out once at any level of pro ball. Even if my chances are slim, obviously this is the offseason where my opportunity is greatest. I'm glad the Brewers don't have one of these clinically insane GMs. *insert jokes at melvin's expense after.... here*

I would love a Madison BF.net team! I've lived in Madtown for years now, and am both a MSCR (Madison School & Community Recreation) player and umpire. MSCR is the league in Madison. I think it'd be cool to start up both a men's and co-ed team in Madison, but I can understand if we can only get one together. Please don't hesitate to contact me. The season is far off, but the sooner I can get started, the better. ALSO, let me know if we should start a thread devoted to just Madison-related softball. Thanks!

Robfuhr----- GREAT post, that's definitely a slant we don't take into consideration too often of BF.net. Even with the concession (pardon the pun) that he may not pitch a full season, although I think 25-30 starts is a reasonable projection, he generates a lot of money at the gates. Again, great outside-the-box thinking, and great post!

What, precisely, is the point of adding another corner OFer for a bullpen arm? Especially since Pena Ks so much! To me, this is the definition of a trade for trading's sake. "Lateral move" is relevant as well, and in depleting the pen, you can argue it's a backward step. Let's cool off on trading Mench/Jenks for just anyone. Melvin is hard at work right now, I guarantee you that. The FA market is finally getting all picked over, and we will see Menchkins's value rise in the month of January. I've said it before, and will say it again: Menchkins will be used to land us another LOOGY/LHRP. Bundling one or both with a Pen arm makes little to no sense, unless the return is fabulous (obviously). I understand TBow's contract ain't lookin' so good at this point, but it's really not that pricey, and having another guy able to consistently throw mid-to-upper 90s can't hurt. If Maddux can't help him regain at least his fastball control, move him early 2007. I definitely doubt that TBow won't be able to help the team, though. We don't even need him to be the set 8th inning option, as Cappellan can help there, too. By the way, who else (I know BF.net's got this one) remembers that horrific showdown between Pena and the Miller Park CF wall in 2006? That was, simply stated, the most violent collision I have ever seen live -- player-to-wall. Pena was as prone as a player could be, and that wall simply wasn't gonna give. I honestly thought his neck was snapped as he lay on the warning track, limp as a dishrag. I've never felt more compassion for an injured Brewers opponent in my entire life. It was sincerely good to see him rebound with the BoSux

I want to do that to the Twins. Very badly.

From the list of LHRP, I still would like a look at Kent Mercker. He's 39, but TJ surgery is notorious for successful comebacks (although I'll admit I don't know if being "older" affects that). Per Rotoworld: I'd certainly take a stab at Mercker for a minor-league deal with a ST invite. And, to be honest, if it'd take a one-year MLB deal (@ appx. $700k), I'd do it. Over the last 3 seasons, his WHIP is 1.34, his ERA+ is 138, and FIP = 4.79. None of those are all-star or world-beating, but I'll take the chance to give us another LHRP

end, that's a good point, and I think he is brought up, but much less frequently. The main reason I think Jenks & Mench get named first is that Clark has never voiced the mindset that "I''m a starter!!" *insert chest-thumping here* Plus, as you mention, his salary being the lowest of the three also makes him a natural 3d choice on that list. If we can't move Jenks and/or Mench, I do agree that moving Clark is better than not moving anything at all. (I just have faith that at least one of Menchkins will be gone, and optimistically - perhaps naiively - I think of a LHRP in return....)

I think the Crew will see so many better offers for Sheets than this original one, it'll make BF.net's collective head spin. And, Big Reed, I loved your top-of-page post, with the exception of the first & last lines - I, obviously, don't like the offer (Reed's first line), and Cano's success is not entirely a byproduct of that lineup, although I do admit it helps. Cano is a fine, fine talent, and is a strong 2B. What he does show us, though, in addition to Reed's good points on Rickie's improved defense, is that what the Brewers have in Weeks is a special talent at 2B. Even Cano, an AL all-star, does not provide anywhere near the power of Weeks, while Weeks brings the speed and athleticism of Cano. Lastly, I do want to point out that there's a heavy anti-Yankees bias on this site, to immediately discount a prospect as highly-regarded (across the league, not just in NYY-land) as Hughes. I understand the small market fans feeling that the way the Yanks are able to spend money is unfair. What's even more unfair, though, and counterproductive to objective discussion on this forum, is the notion that Hughes is a pedestrian pitcher who's merely a product of some conspiracy-riddled NYY media. Come on guys, Hughes is their Gallardo. Let's be more fair

Guys, I don't want to be the poop in the punchbowl, and I know the article is well-done, and so is the individualized research here. But I, for one, just don't care about numbering SPs, just as I don't care about ranking players against others at their positions. I understand the arguments in doing so, but I just don't buy into them. At the end of the game, all that matters is that the production was created, not from which position it came. Likewise, labeling a guy 1-5 does nothing but make us feel better about our uses of stats. Defining a guy's performance gives one a good idea of where he ranks, relative to other SPs (just like all other statistics). So, if the goal is a more simplified form of categorization and regognition, fine, sounds good. But if the point is to craft your rotation around these numbers, you're wasting your time, IMO. Just like the notion that a "leadoff" hitter is super important (he is only guaranteed to 'lead off' once more than any other batter), the numerical ranking of a team's SPing is irrelevant once you get into the grind of the MLB season. Guys get hurt, managers use off-days to restructure based on pitching matchups, and general scheduling leads to the notion of #s 1-5 being moot by the time you hit June or July (if not earlier). It's not that I don't think that 1-5 rankings, like any other stat, aren't useful (obviously the ranks are merely new/different statistical interpretations of other, already existing, effective, pitching stats). It's just that the idea that you can then use these numbers to fixedly structure your pitching rotation is asinine. SP #'s aren't any more or less useful than, say ERA+, FIP, or WHIP

I think we need to stop kidding ourselves that either Mench or Jenkins can land a pitching prospect with any real value. Don't think BF.netters are the only ones aware of each guy's woes against same-handed pitching. GMs, especially, are on top of that. IMO, the ideal situation is getting another LHRP for either one, and moving both, simply to clear $$ room and roster spaces. You're right that the Crew is beginning to embark on a special run, and that both those guys don't figure to fit in anymore. Teams, however, simply do not give up pitching prospects for anybody, just because said 'anybodys' are MLers

Invader3K, they're talking about Mench. He has a notoriously huge head, and was the guy that got the dubious news coverage of going on a hitting streak after changing his cleat size in 2006

NeedMoreFans, I'm with you, literally & figuratively, on the Madison Mark (2d floor!) I've also talked to the new manager about getting the FSN situation remedied. I'm worried that there's been another mixup (surprise, surprise) by DirecTV, bc since I mentioned the problem, the Fox Soccer Channel has gone to black, while our lovely Minnesota FSN channel remains. I guess it's a 'wait and see' kind of situation, but it certainly couldn't hurt to have someone else living in the building stop down and voice a complaint on not being able to get Brewer games

Although I have and will defend Melky Cabrera - to a point - your comments are totally fair, pogo. I wouldn't even hesitate to say that Hart is clearly the superior player. Melky's fine, and his defense trumps Hart's (most MLB OFs, probably), but he just doesn't hit for the power that Hart does. Melky's career minor league OPS = .769 (4 seasons, 1,432 ABs) Melky's career MLB OPS = .739 ("2" seasons, 479 ABs) He's only turning 23 next year, but, unlike Hart, does not give reason to hope for dramatic gains in his OPS & power numbers