danzig6767

I missed the first inning. How did slow as hell McGehee manage to get a triple?

I disagree. My point is that with a hitter who poses an offensive threat, especially with home run power- walks are due in large part to the hitter's skill set. They are getting pitched more carefully. Guys like Counsell walk because they lack aggressiveness at the plate. They walk when this passiveness combines with a pitcher's lack of control (and I'll grant the ability to foul a ball or two off once in a while). Even pitchers walk once every 30 or so plate appearances, and they don't have the foul off ability or street cred with the umpires. I wish that I could see a chart with the pitch count of Counsell walks. I bet it's somewhere in the 6 or 7 range.Obviously pitchers are going to be more careful when pitching to proven power hitters than a guy like Counsell, but pitchers are rarely going to ever just pump fastballs right down the middle to any position player simply to avoid a walk, including guys like Counsell with very little power. Thus, they still try hitting the corners with fastballs and throw them various kinds of offspeed pitches. What hitters like Counsell and Carroll though so smartly do is 1. They respect and value the importance of doing all they can to avoid making an out. You only get 27 of those outs each game and high IQ baseball players really understand the game enough to properly the value getting on base vs making an out. 2. They grasp the obvious that it's easier to hit while not being behind in the count. Generally the easiest and worst route to getting behind in the count is by swinging at pitches out of the strike zone early in the count which the pitchers are hoping you'll swing at. 3. They also smartly understand their limitations as hitters. They know that they can't go up to the plate like say Braun and quite often still hit the ball hard on pitches either out of the strike zone or on pitchers pitches that hit the corners of the plate. So they don't go to the plate with the main intention of drawing a walk which you for whatever reason believe, they instead go to the plate with an actual plan, unlike free swinging hackers like Betancourt. Counsell and Carroll types go up there with a plan of trying their best to only swing at pitches they feel they can handle best. Not fastballs painting the corner early in the count. Not sliders which either catch the corner or end up off the corner, which Yuni loves so much in showing his "aggressiveness" at the plate. Those are pitchers pitches and they love seeing hitters swing at them, even if on some occasions the hitter still manages to turn that pitchers pitch into a hit because in most cases, that kind of pitch will result into a hit ball out instead. Lastly, if in this process, four of those pitches were off the plate enough leading to a walk, they'll smartly take those pitches and the free base vs instead swinging at balls which would have increased their odds of making an out. That "aggressiveness" you seem to love so much at the plate is how some players like Yuni become out machines, while on the flip side a guy like Carroll who lacks the natural gifts of a Betancourt to hit a ball hard/far, Carroll can still be a more productive overall offensive player by understanding what should be obvious, that it's smarter to make pitchers throw you strikes than to consistently help those pitchers out by swinging at the pitches they want you to swing at. Regularly swinging at the pitches a pitcher hopes you'll swing at isn't being aggressive at the plate, it's being stupid except for the rare special hitters who can pretty consistently hit tough pitches hard.

No kidding, it's hard for me to wrap my brain around what RockCoCougers is trying to argue, basically trying to imply that it's better for a hitter to swing at more pitches out of the strike zone than to take them because it shows a lack of aggressiveness. What?

You can't be serious here. Josh Wilson in his major league career has shown very little power and an aversion to taking walks fairly close to Betancourt's impatience. The reason though that Counsell has managed to always walk at a much higher rate than Wilson, even though both have had little to no power is obvious and it's not the pitcher, Counsell almost always has only swung at strikes, while Wilson will swing at way more pitches out of the strike zone than Counsell will. It should be obvious to you when watching Counsell at the plate since he's been here, he has an incredible eye at the plate. Even if a pitch is just barely out of the strike zone, he smartly won't swing at it, but free swingers like Wilson and Betancourt will. It's precisely why they make so many outs. Counsell doesn't go up to the plate trying to take a walk. He goes up to the plate and with an agenda to only swing at strikes he feels he can handle. Huge difference. If though a pitcher doesn't throw him strikes he feels are good pitches to swing at, he smartly then will take the walk. It's the difference between being a smart hitter who forces pitchers to throw them good pitches to hit and impatient hitters who allow pitchers to get them out by doing a favor to those pitchers, by swinging at stuff off the plate which increase the odds that the hitter won't square up on the pitch, if he even makes contact. It's the same with power hitters. It's not coincidence that say Vlad rarely took walks, while Prince walks a ton. Every batter who steps in that box has the option to force pitchers to throw them quality strikes on a consistent basis or to consistently swing at pitches out of the strike zone. This isn't complicated. The sad thing about a guy like Betancourt is he does have a pretty balanced swing, he has some power for a SS, and he's good at making contact. If he had an approach at the plate even close to what Counsell brings up there all the time, Yuni likely could have had a career being a very above average hitting shortstop. Instead though he's a moron up at the plate. He constantly allows pitchers to not throw him quality pitches to hit because he'll swing at their garbage first, which is why he so often hits those shallow fly balls.

I'd prefer my 7th and 8th hitters to limit the amounts of outs they make so my better hitters can get more ABs. It is also nice when your worst hitters are still able to work the count so that starting pitchers have to waste pitches on them and the team can more often face relievers. Am I suddenly back in the 80's? I'm with Bombers on the fact that OBP is overrated toward the bottom of the lineup. Especially in the NL. An 8 spot hitter in the N.L. should have a high OBP. There will be situations where they are pitched around, if not intentionally walked for the pitcher. There will also be situations where they get good pitches to hit simply because there are two outs and it's nice to have the pitcher leading off an inning. I'd rather have some guys with pop toward the bottom of the lineup than someone who will take the walk to let the pitcher kill the rally. So basically you prefer guys at the bottom of the order who make a ton more outs, so long as every once in awhile they get an extra base hit? Well, we've clearly seen loud and clear just all the good it's done for the Brewers offense this season by having so many out making machines at the bottom of the order, that being not enough runs scoring. Plus, at least if guys walk at the bottom of the order instead of making an out and it leads to the pitcher ending the inning, at least the pitcher isn't leading off the next inning with an out.

No way would have he got Sandoval, much less easily.

Yea, that is a problem. Then again, Casey has a .941 fielding percentage this year and that doesn't take into account that he has all the range of a tree stump. Either way, we should probably stop wasting our time with this Green stuff given they've moved him to 2nd and are instead playing Gamel at 3rd in Nashville. I honestly think that Green could go on an epic tear at the plate to where he got his average up to about .370 and above OPS above 1.000, and Melvin/Roenicke wouldn't give any serious thought to bring Taylor up to at least platoon with Casey. The fact that McGehee has been this abysmal both offensive/defensively for such a long length of time, and Green has been hitting well in AAA for pretty much the whole time Casey has been brutal, without hearing even the slightest sniff of a rumor about the team just considering bringing up Green, it's hard for me to envision any scenario where he gets called up before roster expansion in September.

Yeah but McGehee is terrible at 3rd as well. So unless he is McGehee bad at 3rd, doesn't it go back to a decent upgrade?We still would have lost tonight anyways, but Casey in the 8th inning tonight failed yet again to convert a very makeable play into an out. By Parra getting on instead, it allowed for Johnson to get a plate appearance which resulted in a two run homer. That's the thing about both Betancourt and McGehee that is so beyond frustrating. It's one thing for a hitter to be really poor as a hitter or fielder, but for them to be so bad at each aspect of the game is just driving me crazy while watching the games. Hell, besides the brutal defense and offense, McGehee in rare instances he gets on, he runs like one of the Molina brothers and Yuni isn't exactly a blazer on the bases either. So painful to watch these two stink up the joint on a near daily basis.

Yeah, I am really unsure what else Green has to do at this point to merit a call to Milwaukee. Come on, the Melvin/Roenicke hope and pray "plan" for McGehee has to pay off eventually right? After all, it's only been about 75 games now of Casey playing so bad offensively and defensively, that he's been one of the worst everyday players in all of baseball. No need to be so impatient to give Green a try because don't forget McGehee did get a couple off singles the other day off a guy splitting home plate with 88 mph fastballs. Let's be fair here and give Casey at least another 50 games or so to turn things around before taking such a huge risk of calling up a kid with no big league experience, don't forget Gamel struggled in 7 games after being called up. Yea, McGehee helped lead to two more runs scoring tonight by yet again not making a play at third and looking bad at the plate as usual, but hey, he's just scuffling a bit. We all know though that Casey is a battler, so he'll keep battling and battling and battling and battling until he gets things figured out by hopefully at least sometime in mid-September.

He has been struggling some, but Johnson never comes up if McGehee doesn't let that ball get through and that home run doesn't leave any other ballparks besides maybe the tiny LF porch in Houston.

A competent thirdbaseman on the Brewers and Parra never reaches

His at bats tonight were the worst i can ever remember from him in a long time

Yea, besides his incredible defense and speed on the bases, Gomez also just seems to be a great teammate. I know that he's frustrated many Brewers fans since we traded for him, but one thing that never can be said is that he doesn't always play as hard as possible, and he really seems to care a lot about being able to help the team in any way possible. Carlos frustrated me quite a bit early in the year when Roenicke was misusing Gomez in the two hole and with his brainfarts at times on the bases, but as the season has gone along, i found myself developing a real fondness for him as a player on the field, how hard he always plays, and how great he seems to interact with his teammates. Assuming he doesn't get to big of a raise next season, i'd be perfectly fine rolling with a Plush/Gomez platoon against next year. Before this year started, i never thought CF could be the strength it's been, especially since Morgan got off the DL.

Great to hear As soon as it was obvious that Gomez would be out a long time, i really wondered who would be brought up given Boggs struggles. With as poorly as Morgan hits vs lefties, i didn't want him playing everyday. I saw that Carroll was putting up solid numbers in AAA, especially vs righthanders, but i didn't know what his defense was like. If he can play good defense and just be half way decent at the plate vs righthanders, i'd be plenty fine with that. A real bummer though about Gomez. This platoon in CF has been working out fabulously, Gomez with an .821 OPS vs lefthanders and people can say i'm over-exaggerating, but it's hard for me to envision many CF's in baseball for awhile now who could/can cover ground out there faster than Gomez can. When Carlos gets a head of steam going tracking a ball, the guy looks almost Deion Sanders like in how incredibly fast he is. What an athlete. Gomez has been a very frustrating and at times a maddening player to watch since we traded for him with his undisciplined approach at the plate and the many baserunning brainfarts, but in his current platoon/bench player role, he's finally been a real asset to the team via his absolutely stellar defense when he starts, solid hitting vs lefthanders, and then as a late inning defensive sub or pinch runner. I never thought the day would come that i'd be this bummed to see him get hurt.

So his decision then seems to be that because Green would be a rookie and he doesn't trust rookies to produce since Gamel didn't in a very small sample, he'll just keep sticking with his plan for McGehee. Keep playing Casey nearly everyday regardless of the fact that over roughly the last 70 games, McGehee has been one of if not the worst everyday players in all of baseball. It may as well be called the Melvin/Roenicke hope and pray plan because there is no actual logic behind it besides just hoping and praying that at some point before the season ends, Casey will stop performing like one of the worst everyday players in baseball. All the damage done by McGehee during this "plan" of theirs be damned since at least he's not a rookie, thus Casey deserves a near infinite amount of time to turn things around.

I agree given it looks like gave up nothing of value to get Betemit.

It was good to see, but that Enright dude was just dreadful. He kept splitting the plate with high 80's belt high fastballs, a hitters wet dream pitch.

Why are so many here wanting the Pirates to not make mistakes which might hurt their rebuilding of the franchise? I certainly understand feeling good for Pirates fans who have suffered forever because of terrible team management given we Brewers fans also suffered a very long time watching mostly just bad baseball teams. That said, the Pirates are in the Brewers division, not the NL West or AL Central. So while i agree with others here that if the Brewers don't win the NL Central this year, i'd hope it was the Pirates even though it's unlikely. I don't want them though building a franchise that becomes consistently good over the next five years or so given that the Brewers will have to compete in the same division as Pittsburgh over those years. I'd liken it a bit to Kansas City. They've also struggled a long time along with Royals fans, but by all accounts they now have a loaded farm system on top of high end prospects recently called up to the majors this year. I'm happy to hear that for KC fans and i hope it leads to a nice run of success. If though the Brewers were in the AL Central instead, i'd be significantly less pleased to see what the Royals could potentially building.

I agree 100 percent. I didn't even click on this thread until just now because i thought it had to be a sarcastic joke. This team certainly has flaws, but they easily have as good a chance to win the division as anyone else. If they do, as others have said, baseball history is littered with teams who made the World Series even though they weren't the best team in the AL or NL. Plus, let's not act like anything besides winning the World Series would make the season a failure. I've seen some threads started on here over the years that were extremely baffling, but this one has to rank right near the top. Just Greinke having a great second half of the year and finding an upgrade to at least one of McGehee/Betancourt, the Brewers then could easily have a hot stretch in the playoffs as quite a few other teams have in baseball history. If that happened, it would go down as the most memorable October in Brewers history, even if they came short of winning a title. On the flip side, selling now would not only be very stupid from just a baseball sense, it would be the ultimate stab in the back of Brewers fans who fill Miller Park at a market size ratio better than anyone else in the league. I have had quite a few things i disagree with Melvin about over the years, but thankfully he's the GM and Attanasio is the owner, not paul because they'd never even consider selling in a season like this.

I know you are talking in more general terms overall, but Lawrie at 3B would have been a longshot to stick - I'll admit I don't follow MiLB nearly as much as others, but from what I had read he wasn't exactly impressing at 2B. Melvin also traded for Marcum a few months before Rickie was locked up, the two moves didn't have anything to do with each other. Lawrie was expendable because he is projecting (again from what I've read) as a corner OF'er - for a guy who was drafted as a catcher with a power bat......... he loses a lot of value when he suddenly is an OF'er. Plus, the Brewers are set in the corners for years. Not to mention, I imagine the front office had a bit of concern when the kid they gave a check to, with six zeroes on it mind you, is duct taping 40oz bottles of malt liquor to his hand..............That stuff may have played some factor, but i think the by far biggest reason the Marcum/Lawrie trade was made is far more simple. Both Melvin and Attanasio were pretty desperate to win more games in the present than the future, and starting pitching was clearly the biggest weakness on the big league roster, so Doug made the move once Attanasio gave the ok.

That .587 OPS includes his month of April with a .752 OPS. If you went and combined his numbers since May 1st through about 70 games, he has an OPS only slightly over the .500 mark. Mix in his statue like defensive range and 12 errors, Casey a hasn't just been terrible over the last 70 games, he's been epically bad over that stretch. Even Will Nieves likely could have posted better hitting numbers over those same 70 games, and we also have McGehee's playing like he's in mud defense. It's not easy for a major league hitter to hit as poorly as Casey has hit the last 70ish games, we aren't talking about a slump here. This is nearly half a season of utter futility which has been inflicted on the Brewers team. Obviously it's quite possible that Green could come up and not tear the cover off the ball. Fans aren't expecting that. It literally would be hard by simple odds though for Green to come up and be worse at the plate than McGehee has been over the last 70 games, much less i don't think it's physically possible for Green to have less range than Casey at third. If McGehee had been in some fairly common 15-20 game slump, of course it would make no sense for a GM to rush to grab a replacement in AAA. We aren't talking about just a slump here and not talking about 15-20 games. We are talking about 70 games of barely above .500 OPS production and terrible defense. Green would almost have to be forced to play with a patch on one eyes to do worse.

Yea, Nyger isn't some complete free swinging hacker like say Betancourt is, but while he'll take pitches, he doesn't end up taking as many walks as it seems like he should be taking. Not sure why, but it would really increase his value, especially while hitting right in front of Braun/Fielder. That said, picking up Morgan certainly was a huge pickup by Doug because a lineup all season involving Betancourt, McGehee, and Gomez nearly every night would have just piled on to the Brewers getting on base better woes outside of a few guys.

I don't know if Hart isn't hustling 100 percent on every play, but either way this year more than at any time i see a noticeable decline in his speed both on the bases and in the outfield. As for most disliked player, i hate copying everyone else, but i haven't disliked watching a player more than Yuni Betancourt since Johnny Estrada was catching for us. He could hit a bit for a catcher, but man there was nothing about that guy to like. Out of shape. Often lack of hustle. Undisciplined hacker like Yuni. Didn't seem very likable personally. There was a game i believe in Arizona with Estrada playing for the Brewers. He hit a ball a little bit to the right of the shortstop who didn't field the ball cleanly, yet he still threw out Estrada by quite a bit because his lazy butt was basically jogging to first base. Then he had to nerve to laugh about it.

Why would you want a game that ends because one of the teams gets tired and makes a mistake? That's taking skill completely out of the game. At least penalty kicks are a skill that require talented players. Penalty kicks aren't gimmes - the USA missed three in the final and Argentina missed four in the Copa America final.Fatigue potentially leading to mistakes is common in a lot of sports except maybe baseball. Rewarding those that are more fit is something that should be applauded. In hockey playoff games that go multiple overtimes, they don't just say screw it, let's go to a shootout instead because a lot of the players are gassed and some to a lot are cramping up. An NBA Finals games in say double or triple OT isn't stopped and instead decided by a three point contest because many of the players are flat out exhausted. If an NFL game in a hot climate goes to OT and many players are both tired and beat up, they don't decide a tie game by a FG contest with just kickers on the field or a quarterback and one wide receiver being matched with a single cornerback, throwing 5 times each in the end zone for the most touchdowns while the rest of the players just watch. In physically taxing sporting events where a game needs to go extra time to decide it, that's where the athletes who put in the harder workout regiments, who eat right, and who have the tougher will to push through extreme fatigue can capitalize on those who are more susceptible to fatigue affecting their performance more. It's at the heart of what sports are all about, who can still perform as fatigue and adversity hit. Lastly, if a game needs to go beyond the 120 minutes, allow both teams say an extra 2-3 subs for players most dragging from fatigue. Give a short break every 15 minutes. That would be easy to address. I can understand using penalty kicks for qualifying matches to the Olympics/World Cup, but IMO once it gets to the semi-finals or at least the final game, have a real soccer goal and play decide who wins the World Cup. Nobody is going to collapse and die on the field. Fans aren't going to get up and leave when the next goal decides the World Cup. Decide the sport's premier event playing actual soccer, not a kicking contest while the rest of the players do nothing except sit and watch. BTW, i never thought the day would coming where i'm debating anyone over soccer, but i enjoyed watching the men's World Cup really enjoyed this women's version, except for how the Finals game was decided, regardless if the US has won or lost. Hell, i even watch parts of games where the US wasn't playing. That's shocking for me.

Nearly everyone here has been calling for over a month to have Melvin bring up Green, you aren't on to something all by yourself, but it seems pretty clear by now that Melvin is stubborn as all hell and instead would prefer seeing McGehee and occasionally Counsell produce absolutely nothing at thirdbase. Hardricourt has mentioned that Doug just doesn't want to use an unproven rookie in a playoff race. Yea, it's a ridiculous excuse given how miserable McGehee has been for about 75 games now, both on offense and defense. If that is the case though, it is what it is, regardless of how much we can disagree with Melvin on bringing up Green. So if Doug foolishly will continue being stubborn with Green/McGehee, i'd certainly rather have Betemit than simply just sticking with Casey, so long as we don't have to give up a top 5-7 prospect, which i doubt it would cost.