HiAndTight

Why on Earth would you give him away when there are teams like the Yankees and other big market teams that are going to be more than willing to take on a contract like his in the off-season and who will almost certainly give you more than what you're describing? He's a pretty underrated pitcher, pitching as a lefty in that ballpark with that ridiculous left field. He's a GOOD pitcher, and not the type of guy you give away.

Well, the recent edit changes my post. Not sure that the Rox are a great fit for Wandy, but if they can get him cheap, they might as well. They could also have a great rotation in the near future. They got two studs from the Indians who are close and Chacin are few very nice looking arms.

If the Nationals did, it just strengthens how good they could be in the near future. Strausburg Zimmermann Wandy Lannan Marquis And whoever else they bring up or have coming through the farm system, and they have a couple nice arms down there. Detwiller perhaps fulfills his potential. And I was touching on this earlier, but their lineup could be just nasty if they were to add a guy like Prince. Prince, Rendon, Espinoza/Desmond, Zimerman, Harper, Ramos, Werth and one of their many CF options. And then Storen and Clippard at the end of the pen. If I was the Nats I'd jump at this chance. Wandy does strike me as a guy who'll thrive for a few more years.

I believe if we're talking about MILWAUKEE history, you're leaving out the greatest Milwaukee teams ever. I believe the Braves in the late 50's were over 8' games a couple of times. Not positive though. Will look it up later when I have a second. I know this is about the Brewers, but it WAS phrased "Milwaukee history," so....just to be "that guy."

If he wins his next 4, maybe they'll try and get him there, and he is pitching great, but I'd personally like to see a nice little rest for the guys if we maintain our lead and there is no chance to catch Philly(which I don't think there is, and I don't think it's THAT important anyway). With Cappy, getting 20 was a big deal with the .500 season and all that. This year, if Yo ends up with 20 of 18 wins, meh. It'd be nice, but I think he'll have a better chance next year. To my way of thinking, our pitching hasn't pitched great and has been done in by our defense this year. So as good as they've been, I think the future could hold higher win totals, and I think they could look even better with a good defender at short and 3rd(and 1B). We're stuck with Braun and Hart for the time being, but neither are that bad IMO, and in CF we're very good right now and into the future).

I actually disagree a bit here just on the eye test. I think he's pretty damn good at blocking balls in the dirt. We have a couple of pitchers who have just NASTY secondary stuff that's nearly impossible to block. The slider that Greinke threw last night that allowed a run to score bounced before the plate and was moving away. That's something that Molina won't block. It's incredible. So I think a lot of it is Greinke, Yo and Marcum's secondary stuff, Narveson will bounce a lot of curves up there, and while Wolf seems to keep his down and not in the dirt as often, he can bounce a 0-2 curve as well as anyone.

Exactly, just because they're the Red Sox and Yankees doesn't mean they'll automatically get into the bidding. Buying 7 10K Italian suits for a 5 day business trip is one thing, but you don't need to spend 20 for an 8th and a 9th. Neither have any "need," for Prince. Sure, he'd be nice, but with two GG caliber defenders and close to equal offensive players already locked up to long term deals...the question is why? Why would they go after him? The Cubs have quietly suggested they're more into the youth movement than more big FA signings before they're ready. I think it REALLY comes down to; 1-Nationals That's a team that could have a SICK lineup 2-3 years into Prince's time there. Zimermann and Strausburg(if the latter can stay healthy, he's a once in a generation pitcher...which many of us have forgotten because of the aforementioned issue). Throw in Detwiller and then a Lannan, Marquis, or they've got a couple other arms that could develop. An IF of Prince/Rendon/Espinoza/Zimmerman is one of the best you could imagine should Rendon work out. In the OF you've got Harper who could be all time great with the 80 power and 70-80 arm...which is a bit underrated. Werth in RF who I think will settle in as a Corey Hart type player once his contract isn't the focal point, and then they have several CF options. Throw in a Tyler Clippard and Drew Storen SU/CL situation and that's a nasty back of the pen combo...(though I suspect that will look a little differently by this time comes around, just saying if you were to project now, it's difficult to project a rise in a Clippard type pitcher, but I imagine they'll be alright as long as they've got Storen closing out games. Easy to mold a BP around a CL which is one reason I think many on here underrate the closer position). Anyway, enough on them. 2-Baltimore They've got a ton of money also. They, like the Nats have been looking to spend it for years. The Nats may have found their way with Werth, but we'll see if they can pony up for another. But this offense looks potentially incredible as well with Prince. I still believe Weiters can be Mauer with power, Jones is in his early/mid 20's yet, Markakis IS overrated, but still a good player. And they've got other very nice pieces there offensively. And let us not forget the 5 starters under the age of 25 who are all highly touted. And they always seem to have a dynamic pen. Angelos almost seems to need to spend on someone for his ego and I think Prince will be the target this year. 3-Seattle Another bigger market team hidden under the guise of a small market. They'll draw if they're decent, and Jack Z picked Prince. Plus, with a young pitching staff of King Feliz, Pineda, Blevan just to start, I think they have the pieces in place to have a nice rotation. Add in Ackley and the 1B from the Rangers who I just can't recall at this moment, but who was up there with Hosmer in terms of prospect status. (Edit-Smoak is the guy who I couldn't come up with. He's a legit prospect. Guy hits for power and he draws a ton of walks. Could be perfect in front of Prince with his walk rates). I think he'd be a poor fit here, but I think they'll go hard after him. 4-LAA Morales has now missed two full years, and while I just can't fathom taking on Wells and that deal, and that could hamstring them as they have too many OF/DH combos with Trumbo, Trout, Wells, Hunter, and Bourgouis(and correct me if I'm wrong, again, the young CF defensive studs name is partially eluding me at the moment). Prince doesn't fit with what they do, but if they DID get him, throw Trout into CF, Hunter into RF and Trumbo into LF and just eat Wells and maybe deal their young CF defensive stud, that could be nasty. 5-Brewers They've got the new TV deal and I just for the life of me do NOT understand why people continue to throw out the 85 million dollar payroll limit. The new TV deal, while not releasing it's public numbers is rumored to be at the absolute minimum 10 million, and please feel free to dismiss this all you'd like, but I have friends who work for both FSN and the Brewers who speculate it could produce an additional 20 million annually. But aside from that, the Brewers have been more than willing to easily exceed the 90 million dollar mark AS-IS, and they're going to be again coming off a year in which they have a VERY successful season at the turnstiles and in merchandising(there was just an article in the MJS) talking about this. And frankly, Mark A is more of a baseball guy than a fan. Now he IS a baseball guy, but I think the 45 pct baseball guy in him can be convinced by the 55 pct fan in him that 6 years 150-160 million in worth it for Prince, and I think he could stretch that to 7 years 175. Would I do it? Wouldn't even think about it. I think this team could be better without Prince. This teams needs a little bit of a face lift, and I say that as a HUGE homer. As of right now they've got a GREAT pitching staff, a very good BP. They've got a couple arms coming up that are going to REALLY supplement their arms. Lock up Greinke for the 5 years 85 million. I think that's about as good a bet as you can get for a long term deal as a pitcher. Offer Marcum 3 years 36 million. I don't like that one, but whatever. With Peralta, Thornburg, Heckathorn, Fiers, Manzanillo and other young pitchers coming up I think you really supplement the pitching ala the Atlanta Braves(not quite as good as their guys, but we're no slouches here). Throw in Jungman and Bradley and it could be very pretty. Expensive atop the pen and rotation and cheap in the back. And then in the field, turn that money into DEFENSIVE minded players at 3rd and short who can hit McGehee and Betancourt's weight. Now their own, I'm hoping for athletic players, but the key here is to turn this defensive nightmare into as good of a defensive team as you can by improving 1st, 3rd and short while you have a nice CF and an average C. With great pitching and an average lineup, that gives you a great chance to sustain long term success IMO.

I get the sense that most ballplayers don't evaluate their teammates purely on sabermetric output. This line of thinking annoys me with regard to Betancourt as well. I remember during spring training there were some quotes from Greinke that were complimentary of Yuni and some of the reactions around here were to the effect of "oh, he's just pretending to be nice, I'll bet he really hates playing with Yuni." http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif Do you think Braun is sick of watching Mark Kotsay? Probably not, because he's a professional. And because they actually play baseball everyday. There's a substantial disconnect from playing the game, to analyzing to death UZR ratings, and VORP and things of this nature. For all the crap Kotsay gets, they see a guy who makes contact, and has a decent average and is probably pretty likable. Some people are far too wrapped up in being right or wrong about a particular player to kinda step back and appreciate human nature. This is why there are GM's. They may always be able to see the trees from their vantage point, and the "tree," is that Yuni couldn't get to a play "in his zone," or that the grizzled vet they respect might have a hollow .265 batting average. And for the record, I'm all about the Yuni bashing despite the fact that he's played a passable SS as of late, which to my mind would include offense and defense(he's been surprisingly not terrible defensively). That, and the lack of any other real option will make him the SS for the rest of the way. But the Kotsay bashing is a BIT over the top. He's not a good player, but he's not that bad for a bat off the bench. And I do put "bit," in all caps as I think it's only been slightly overplayed. .260/.320 off the bench. If the Brewers could add another power bat in lieu of Wilson, ie, Gamel and go with Hairston, Gamel and Kotsay, or Hairston, Thome and Kotsay, he's not a bad guy to have coming off the bench in the post-season, and he hasn't been THAT bad during the season.

Comments seem to be a bit more harsh here than on scouting reports, and it also seems to me that Texas has a pretty looong line of pitchers from that program and pretty astute pitching coaches. Might there be something to that? Could the truth lie somewhere in the middle between "hoping" for a 4/5(which frankly is ridiculous) and perfect mechanics.

Comments seem to be a bit more harsh here than on scouting reports, and it also seems to me that Texas has a pretty looong line of pitchers from that program and pretty astute pitching coaches. Might there be something to that? Could the truth lie somewhere in the middle between "hoping" for a 4/5(which frankly is ridiculous) and perfect mechanics.

I agree 100%. Every game the Brewers win the better chance they have to resign Fielder. That may or may not be the best move for management to make, but compared to his other suitors Orioles, Cubs, Nats, I would think the Brewers look pretty good at this time. I've said for years I believe our payroll will go over 100 million by '12'/'13 and that we will re-sign Prince. I haven't said I think either is wise, just that Attanasio has given every indication he will do so, or at least work very hard to do so. I genuinely believe 6 years 140-150 will be the Brewers offer. Then dump Wolf, re-sign Greinke, bring up Peralta and look for another big year nextr year.

I don't see how you can say that as a matter of absolute fact. I think RR, for all his many faults, does get major points for being a "players manager." That was the book on him coming in, and the Brewers have strongly reinforced this as the year has gone on.

You DO understand what the word OR means? It generally means one OR the other, not both. As in taking on some of Dunn contract would make it CHEAPER to get Beckham or Ramirez in terms of prospects. See? So when I repeatedly say Ramirez OR Beckham and then talking about taking back a chunk of Dunn's contract could make them easier to acquire, ie CHEAPER, you're really obnoxious mocking in which you totally miss the point about as badly as it can possibly be missed...doesn't really hit it's mark. Try harder, come back with a better insult, and THEN we can play along.

It's as you've missed every single point I made and just went on your own rant to reiterate the points you've already made. First of all, if we want to get a little more specific, not sure how the math comes out that we're 1/2 way through this season. We're closer to a 3rd of the way though it. And AGAIN the biggest benefit to gettting Dunn is to get Ramirez OR Bekcham much cheaper, ie, Dunn is NOT the integral pieces, he's the means to the end(ie, one of the two stud SS who are young and cost controlled). Aside from THAT which you made the main point, there is ALSO the hope that he could return to the player he's always been. And the 56 million also means absolutely nothing at this point as your 2/3rds through one season and the Sox would be taking SOME money back in this scenario, so you're really trying to exaggerate at every turn to make it sound as bad as possible. So...in terms of winning the 2011 world series, putting a player like Alexei Ramirez or Gordon Beckham goes a whole long way to helping.

Lower the price of Beckham/.Ramirez? Has that not been made clear? And after doing that you can at least hope he can become the player he was in the past.

How often do you watch Beckham play? The talent is still absolutely there. I think you tend to look at stat lines and little else. Beckham still has star written all over him. He was rushed to the big leagues, but he has great bat speed, and he has a tenacity to him, ala, Rickie Weeks. Just a hard nosed guy. I love Beckham and believe he can be a .300/.375/.500 type player. And he's still what, 25 years old? I'd take Beckham everyday over Ramirez. Wow. I don't know what you've seen in Beckham that I haven't, but I completely disagree. Ramirez is a plus plus defender (at shortstop no less) and a better hitter. I agree with you on most stuff, but Ramirez is a much more valuable player than Beckham. If all you're going off of are past results, there is very little need for most people in baseball.

Would you trade Gamel for a division title and a good chance at a pennant and possibly more?Can you guarantee that pennant and possibly more? No. And FWIW, it will cost more than Gamel. That sounds like an absolute statement when it's anything but absolutely true. If there were no financial considerations, I could see the Cubs pulling off such a swap.

That seems like a foolish move on his part, but if that's the case, I could get on board. As a rental, there isn't too much risk.At this point I'd do it even if A-Ram wanted the option to vest. He could be Prince's replacement in the lineup and on the payroll for one year. More importantly, he'd fill the gaping hole defensively at 3rd base, the gaping hole in the lineup that is Casey McGehee, and most of all he'd fill the gaping hole that is the 5-spot of the Brewers lineup. I can't think of a more perfect fit available on the market. This would put the Brewers over the top imo. Alright, so do you do Aramis Ramirez+Sean Marshall+Marlon Byrd for Tyler Thornburg+Caleb Gindl? Marshall fills @*#*%% in our pen, albeit one that's not that big with our new found depth, but a nice one either way. Then finish it off with a Jamey Carroll trade. And our lijneup when Rickie gets back would be incredible. Move Weeks back atop the order; Vs RH'ers Weeks-2B Morgan*-CF Braun-LF Prince*-1B Aram-3B Hart-RF Carroll-SS LH'ers Weeks 2B Byrd CF Braun LF Prince* 1B Aram 3B Hart RF Carroll SS Lucroy C B|ench C-Kottaras/Moldanado IF-Green/Betancourt OF-Morgan or Byrd/Schaefer OR Willy Mo Pena,,, Pen CL-Ax SU-Krod 7th-Saito/Hawkins Loogy/MRP-Marshall MRP-Loe Long Man-Wily Peralta Greinke/Marcum/Gallardo/Wolf/Narveson THAT'S a playoff roster that could legitimately win it all. Not @*#*%% as far as I can see. Almost certainly not going to happen however. At the end of the day though, I think I'd be willing to gut the rest of our farm system to pick up both the men named Ramirez, Alexei and Aramis as long as we got back one of the two star lefties from the other team. Thorton or Marshall.

I don't believe that was the reason he was moved whatsoever. He graded out at neutral according to fangraphs, it was his first year at 3rd base, they didn't have a 2nd basemen, and their top prospect was coming up at 3rd. Unless you have some link where they say that's the reason they moved him, I'm inclined to believe it was the most obvious reasons in falling in line with their plans all along.

I would do this deal. Don't know if the White Sox would but it's mandatory that Beckham or Ramirez are in any deal that includes Dunn or Rios and their salary. I don't care either way what the combo is (Beckham/Rios, Beckham/Dunn, Ramirez/Rios, Ramirez/Dunn) but that's the only way I do it.Right, as I could see either player being worth 10 million a year over the life of their contracts(each year). More likely, they'll be burdensome contracts, but with the addition of Beckham or Ramirez, I think it'd make it WELL worth it. Really, Dunn and Beckham are the two I'd target. I'd suck still having to deal with a terrible 1st basemen defensively, but Dunn's still a big time offensive threat, and I truly believe Beckham has star ability.

How often do you watch Beckham play? The talent is still absolutely there. I think you tend to look at stat lines and little else. Beckham still has star written all over him. He was rushed to the big leagues, but he has great bat speed, and he has a tenacity to him, ala, Rickie Weeks. Just a hard nosed guy. I love Beckham and believe he can be a .300/.375/.500 type player. And he's still what, 25 years old? I'd take Beckham everyday over Ramirez.

I know I'm late to the party, but I'd be ALL for this. Dunn+Beckham+Thorton for Gamel+Heckathorn and the White Sox still throwing in 10 million total. I think Dunn goes back to being a .245/.375 type hitter who hits 35 again next year. Beckham WILL be our SS for the next decade(if we re-sign him) and will be a multiple time All Star IMO. Just got called up too early, and a change may be a huge benefit to him. Thorton is a guy who throws 96 and can blow you away. AND he's our 7th inning guy/loogy? Dunn serves as a bench guy/backup corner OF'er this year and our 1st basemen next year.

Over react much? Is he really overreacting? That was a gruesome looking injury. Reminded me of Jason Kendall's injury while with Pittsburgh when he stepped on the side of first base and turned his ankle...only difference is Kendall left the field with his ankle bone poking out the side of his leg. In all seriousness, Weeks is likely out at least a month, possibly longer. And how many times have you seen a Brewers player come back from an injury early or even on time? I'll be very surprised if we see Rickie at second base again this year. Yes, he IS overreacting much. He turned his ankle. Very badly, but it was a turned ankle, and we're declaring him done for the year with over 2 months left? Weeks will be back in August is my guess. Towards the end, but August. Just the kinda guy he is. And how many times have I seen a Brewers player come back "early, or on time?" A lot. We just like to focus on how inept the medical staff is around here. What, with the years we've all put in in Medical school, I've always understood that.

I don't see how you could say Beltran is anything but an upgrade to our corner OF spots.

If the manager doesn't call a bunt, that usually means that the player does not bunt. I've never heard of a manager calling a "no bunt". My impression is that Roenicke thinks Hart should not have bunted there, although he got the runner over so he can't really fault him.And he worded it about as strongly as he could without ripping into Hart in the media. I think some people are still waiting for much-much more from a manager than we're likely to get. Unless you live on the South side of Chicago anyway.