Thurston Fluff

That's a basic scenario. You just need to improve the pitching more than you take a hit on the loss of Gomez. Yes those type of deals are out there day in and day out. Just dial 1-800-ripoff and you get five great pitchers for one Carlos Gomez. Teams just love giving up more than they receive. It makes their jobs so much easier. After all unemployment is no work at all. Teams are not lining up to lose more than they get. It's just wishful thinking to believe you can just decide to trade someone and there are five offers all of which give you more than you offer. You guys are not being at all realistic in what these players are likely going to get us. If the situation arises like the Dodgers buying all of Boston's crap comes along nobody is saying no. It's just those type of things don't happen very often. You don't rebuild your franchise by waiting for stupid people to give you everything they have of value. Things get more complicated when you add more players and deal with prospects, but what I am saying, what TheCrew is saying and others are saying is that you need to continue to improve the OVERALL talent on the team and organization to get to a point where you can compete routinely. You don't really think I didn't understand that do you? What you don't seem to understand is I think you are wrong on how to get there. Winning is as simple as scoring more runs than you give up. A 1-0 win counts the same as an 11-10 win. Problem is you guys don't seem to think 11-10 wins count as much as 1-0 does. Giving up runs scored to stop runs from getting scored seems to be the very definition of spinning your wheels.

I may be overvaluing what 4 years of a productive yet unspectacular OF (I think he could play CF) might be worth but at least I'm willing to go a different direction and attempt to fix the organization's main problem. Furthermore I never limited my trade options to Aoki, that's a creation of those who can't seem to fathom selling on high Gomez for that type of pitching when we have Schafer to replace him, coupled with the fact that we aren't winning with Gomez/Ramirez/Aoki and won't win with them unless we get better pitching. You are making unrealistic assumptions of what these players will get you. That isn't going in a different direction that is living in fantasy land. Aoki isn't going to land us that type of player and Schafer is nowhere near the player Gomez is. Five tool players do not grow on trees. So by trading him we go back to creating a hole to fill another. I know you don't think you are saying that but look at it realistically. We have very mediocre outfield depth. As I have pointed out already. Gregmag pointed out correctly that Aoki could be expected to be reasonably replaced by the likes of Schafer or one of our other sub .831 OPSing AAA players. If you think any of them are going to come close to Gomez's current production you are certainly not looking at their actual production. Thus you are creating a hole without sufficiently filling it. You can't have 2/3rds of an outfield putting up sub .800 OPS's and expect the offense to just click along. You are basing your arguments on what you want them to do not what they are actually doing.

The question is not if Yuni should be getting those at bats rather are those at bats more valuable to the team/prospect than more regular playing time in the minors. I think some people are overvaluing useful a few AB's in the majors is for prospect development. I think it can be useful at times. But I think those times are more for guys who have shown they are capable of handling it. I just don't see guys who are barely competent at AAA as being at that level yet.

The answer regarding how would we get a top of the rotation starter for Aoki would be simple, you take the best talent available. Once you start placing limits on the talent you want back such as MLB ready or AA you arbitrarily limit your options. 30 something corner outfielders with marginal power just aren't valuable enough to give up a player of the caliber you spoke of. Regardless of age or stage of development. I think you are simply overrating Aoki's value.

Ok, I'll play. Yes, he is. He can't be any worse, and if he is better, it's a win! Yes he can be worse. In fact if you compare their AAA numbers he is worse. The last time Francisco was in AAA he put up a .902 OPS. Halton currently has an .825 OPS. If he's likely to not be any worse and possibly better than Francisco then why does he have worse AAA numbers than Francisco had? The grass isn't always greener and sometimes there is no readily available answer. Just shuffling them around isn't always the best way to find an answer. Sometimes the answer is stick with the guy who is struggling but has the best chance of doing something.

Is he likely to be a better option than Francisco? Not really. Is he likely to be better as a bench player than Gindl? Not really. Is he likely to be a better replacement for Braun than Schafer? Not Really. Where does he really fit?

Very reasonable assessment gregmag. It certainly gives me pause on how much of a hole it would cause in the lineup. That said how does a .780 OPS outfielder land you, as TheCrew07 put it, "impact pitching to match-up with post season rivals?" Aoki might be a good trade candidate to get us a young adequate 3rd base prospect who is in AA or something but he isn't going to land you even one season of an ace. If he does Doug deserves a raise. I think it does mean Aoki can be traded for a position we have less viable options at. Of all the players he is probably the most tradable without leaving a huge hole on the roster. But I think those type of trades net the most in the off season when team are building their teams.

Melvin is that you? Once again that's not really what I said, I'm talking about making the MLB team as a whole better. We have plenty of OF depth, it's not creating hole anymore than trading Hart would have created a hole. A "hole" is our pitching staff, not a place where we have depth. You said and I quote It seems to me that is saying trade one of our outfielders for impact pitching. The outfield depth you speak of is Gindl, Schafer, Davis, Prince and Halton. None of which posted an OPS in AAA above .831. Three of them have (or had in the case of Schafer) one under 800 in AAA. That seems more like a bench player than a starting caliber outfielder on a competitive major league roster. To me that is a text book definition of creating a hole to fill another. That all assumes of course that Aoki or Gomez would land you an impact pitcher to match-up with post season rivals. Something I highly doubt. So to reasonably get that type of player you have to trade even more than one outfielder. Which only creates more holes. Peralta started pitching for the Brewers in 2006 when he was 17. It's not like he switched to pitching only say 2-3 years ago. In all of those years pitching, command has been a consistent problem for him. This isn't a new issue to pop up by being in the majors. He's been a pitcher for seven years. Not as a professional mind you. Seven years from when he started to pitch. That isn't exactly an eternity. I never said it was an issue that just popped up. I said the exact opposite. With the rather short time he has been pitching as an example of why that might be. Also why there is hope his control issues will get better with time.

Besides the fact that Peralta throws hard, what else is there to say he has a high ceiling? It has been said by many people inside and outside the organization that he has great pure stuff not just that he throws hard. His main issue is throwing strikes. Only 45 K's in 80 innings. A brutal 45/32 K/BB ratio. A brutal 1.663 WHIP. He wasn't exactly dominant in the minors either with a career 1.410 WHIP, including a 1.582 last year in AAA. I think he has to learn to use all his pitches. Right now according to fangraphs he uses his fastball and slider around 92% of the time. That in turn seems to me more about trusting his stuff or not having enough control to use all his pitches right now. I think that also is a major reason for his high WHIP. Something you might want to look at throughout his career is he gets better as the season goes on. That happened at pretty much every level he was at. That would be another signal to me that his issues are control, not stuff, related. Control is the one thing a player can learn. Stuff not so much. Given his age and the fact that Peralta was converted from a position player it shouldn't come as a surprise that his control is lagging. That does not change how high his ceiling is.

Overall I think the philosophy of step by step progression is better than rushing them for overall long term production. But your point is well made that each player has to be measured on his own unique scale. When it comes to Morris right now I think Melvin saying he wasn't ready combined with fairly pedestrian numbers in AAA probably makes the case better than just saying players need a full season to be ready.

The problem is this, if you won't trade a productive hitter like Gomez or Aoki, then I would like someone to explain how exactly we will ever get the impact pitching to match-up with post season rivals? We have to give value to value, the Brewers aren't able to afford impact pitching in Free Agency, and we haven't been developing pitchers... Filling one hole by creating another is not a good answer. The only time trading good players make sense is if you are trading from a position you have covered after the trade. Or if they are about to become free agents but that is more by necessity than choice. We have pitchers. Peralta and Hellweg actually have pretty high ceilings if they are given some time to develop. Peralta is going through his rookie learning now. Hellweg isn't far behind. WE also have several others who can be at least major league average in a year or two. These are not guys who need another three to five years to be serviceable major league players. While they might not be that ace everyone seems to be looking for we have to be realistic. We are not getting a young ace by trading anyone on our roster not named Braun. That does not mean we can't compete if we have the other pieces in place.

Aoki is a guy I see that has value now, and that could be replaced reasonably well internally. He's also not a guy you would look ahead 3-4 years and figure he's going to be here. So that's the guy I'd shop. I agree with you on him. But I think he might get you more of a return in winter when teams are building for the whole season.

I think that they should trade Gallardo, Lohse, Aoki, K-Rod, Axford, Ramirez and restock their farm system with multiple great prospects. You are not going to get multiple great prospects for those guys. YoGa might get you Segura but not Segura, Helwig and Pena. He isn't Greinke so he wouldn't get you the same haul. Lohse if nobody wanted to give up a first round draft pick why would they give up a great prospect? Relievers rarely get you great prospects. K-Rod was essentially free for the taking and nobody took him. He's not going to net you a great prospect after a few innings of work this season. Aoki and Ramirez are decent enough players but not world beaters. Especially with Ramirez nursing a sore leg that isn't going to get fully healed until the off season. Thay are not going to be the difference between a playoff run and not. They are more likely to get average type prospects which we already have a enough of. I think you can get a better return on those guys in the winter. If we keep most of them minus maybe K-Rod or something I think we do have enough to make a run next season. Thinking our current pitchers aren't going to improve seems to miss they are capable of improving from where they are. We would be hard pressed to have as bad a luck on the injury front as we do this season and there will be very few holes to fill outside of the pitching staff.

Segura is more the exception than the rule. That is like expecting every rookie to be as good as Braun was. Even if you want to compare them Segura's lowest OBP in the minors was .341. A mark Morris only ever surpassed once. Juan Francisco seems a better comparison. Both had a low OBP in the minors with some power. While Morris had a little higher OBP in the minors Francisco had a higher OBP and OPS in AAA than Morris does. Which would lead me to believe he was more prepared for the majors than Morris is now. Yet look at how he is struggling. I think Morris is going to end up being the better player but I think it gives us as good a picture of what we can expect out of Morris right now.

On the radio during the game they were talking about how pitcher's deliveries today don't leave pitchers in a good position to field. Seems that would also mean they aren't in a position to defend themselves too. That might be why more pitchers are getting hit these days. If there is some reason their deliveries need to be that way then it seems precautions should go up accordingly. I think this is an area where the league should take the lead. Players tend to have a mentality that leads them to take risks. This is the type of thing they would be very reluctant to endorse if they even imagined a performance inhibitor.

but I think your Yuni-Morris comparison is very strange. Yuni is now an old player in decline. Morris is still at an age where substantial improvement is possible. Moreover, Yuni has been absolutely horrible for a month and a half. It seems highly unlikely to me that Morris wouldn't bring appreciably more production than Yuni right now. Kind of a minor point but I don't think Yuni is in any sort of decline. He's doing what he always did. Not likely to give you anything more might be better for now. To the main arguments. I have two. The first is potential has nothing to do with production now. Morris is at an age where substantial improvement is possible. But that is contingent on how he is brought along to some extent. Whatever the potential is doesn't have anything to do with how he will perform now. To risk slowing his development for minimal or no improvement seems counterproductive. Possibly the more important factor is I don't think it is between Yuni and Morris. With Ramirez at third the regular AB's for Francisco is at first. Which happens to be the only place Morris would play. So the three alternatives are: See what Francisco can do while letting Morris get all the AB's at AAA, let Morris get half the AB's with Francisco or have Morris take most of the AB's and not even see what we have in Francisco? Given I don't think Morris has shown he is ready I'd take the first option. For the good of both now and our future.

One decent year for Morris? One historically good year (relative to Southern League history) is a more accurate way to describe it. And you seem to be dismissing nearly a 100-point difference in OPS (Morris is in his age-24 season, fwiw, not 25) as not too big a deal... not to mention that Yuni played with the Tacoma Rainiers & played more of his games in the hitter's paradise that is the group of west-coast PCL parks. Hunter Morris is a significantly more talented hitter at this point than Betancourt, who is routinely one of the worst offensive players in MLB. Yes he did have a monster year in AA. He is following it up with a very pedestrian one in AAA. He is starting to get his grove and may very well end up having a good year there. That is my hope. But that should show you the value of step by step development. AS far as the difference in OPS you are correct. But I think you would agree his OPS in AAA doesn't scream ready for the majors. I probably shouldn't have posted the OPS. I was trying to be fair but really I think the OBP is the biggest warning sign. Seeing someone struggle to get on base in AAA is a very bad sign for what they can do in the majors IMHO. I posted Yuni's minor league numbers to show how bad someone who can't get on base can be. Gomez is probably also someone we can point to who was hurt by coming up to early in his career. I don't see the value of bringing up someone who isn't ready. Either for their development or for the good of the team for that season. If you set their development back a year or two while also starting their arby clock you end up with very few cheap years of useful production. I just don't see how that is beneficial in any way. Strange how it takes a PHD-like argument to convince some (and still not our management) what was the most obvious, common sense baseball organizational decision of 2013. What a waste of a year. And even when management could have derived a positive, benefit from 1st base, they go down the lose-lose path. How sad. I think you are giving your position too much credit while discounting the value of the other side. There is little to no value to bringing someone up you feel can't handle that level. All it does is take away a year of more productive play, possibly hamper his development while retuning little or nothing of value now. It is far from a no brainer to think there is a benefit to having players play at a level they cannot handle. Players might be very good for their stage of development but that is not the same as being developed and ready to go. Setting Morris' development back even half a season is not worth the possible extra HR and 10 points of OBP. So perhaps the choice wasn't to waste this season and hamper development. It might be waste this season or hamper his development. At this point I would rather see what Francisco can do than bring up Morris if he isn't ready.

I don't think the options years matter. This is why you have them. I think they don't believe Morris is ready. One thing we sometimes lose in debates about drafting and amateur scouting is the minor league scouting. That is where the Brewers seem to do alright. They knew Segura was a legit shortstop when others felt he wasn't. They found the likes of Narveson, Axford and Estrada. They probably know when someone is ready as well as any. The way I see it options or service time aren't the issue. Dude just isn't ready yet.

I think learning at the level you are capable of dealing with is far better than getting totally dominated every day. Gradually increasing levels of difficulty helps develop someone better than sink of swim IMHO. No sooner do I post this I read this. http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/the-seasoning-process-b9933799z1-211706001.html One can debate if it is right or not but it is part of a reasoned out strategy on player development. It's hard to say he is clueless.

I just looked up Yuni's minor league numbers from his final (almost) full season in the minors. He was 23 at the time and had an OBP of .311 and an OPS of .735. Morris by comparison has a .325 OBP and a .815 OPS this season at age 25. Given Morris in only 210 ab's into his first AAA season I am not so sure he would represent an upgrade to Yuni at this point. Yuni isn't good but to assume someone who's history of success in the minors is about one year of decent play and fairly mediocre beyond that I don't see the argument that he is likely to do better. I do see however the argument to be made that rushing Morris along too quickly could hamper his overall development. So why bring him up for what is likely to be little if any upgrade while also possibly harming his development. As it is his minor league numbers look very pedestrian this season why not let him upgrade one level at a time to get the very most out of him when the time comes?

Hart is not gone for the year so how is your argument that they completely abandoned first base for the year even remotely true? They didn't even know it would be half a season without Hart. They thought he would be gone until May. The injury is taking longer to heal than they thought. That happens. What that has to do with Lohse is beyond me. He was signed for three years. He is not a short term rental. Even if he was were they supposed to give up on the season before it started because Hart might be gone longer than expected? If you can't find a reasonable replacement at one spot why not strengthen another spot to compensate? It's not any different than having Greinke pitching compensating for having Yuni at short.

I posted a response Sveumrules but I really don't want to disrupt a thread on defense. Rest assured this debate will come up again in a more appropriate spot then we will have at it.

Problem is people keep feeding it to me like it is a reasonable alternative. If you want to eat mud and think it is good enough until something else better comes along go ahead. Just don't tell me it is best you can do so I should accept it until you find some chocolate. I'm not going to hijack this thread so I'll just let it rest at that.

Currently WAR incorporates the best metrics available in each of those respective areas to try and come up with one number, a jumping off point if you will, representative of that player's overall worth and contribution. Mud is the closest looking thing to chocolate. Does that mean we should accept mud as a reasonable substitute for chocolate until something better comes along?

I'm kind of surprised a public entity didn't try to do this already. At least on a small scale. All it should take is three cameras and some math to figure out.