KeithStone53151

Exactly. There's a lot of season left, hopefully we can get hot again.

I like how you are all about positivity but yet when it comes to Arcia, he is just the worst. This game isn't over yet. Get these outs and back to the plate...

For starters, I agree with MrTPlush's post above. You shouldn't be counting on unproven minor leaguers as your franchises core unless maybe they are a Top 20 prospect in all of baseball, and even then I'd pause. I do agree that Arica could be considered a core player because he's finally doing it at MLB level and is controlled for quite a while. I also think that Lewis Brinson has a more than 50% chance to become a core player also. However, the way I see it: SS Orlando Arcia Best Case comp: Francisco Lindor Likely comp: Alcides Escobar Worst Case comp: Jose Iglesias 2B Keston Huira Best Case comp: Ian Kinsler Likely comp: Kolten Wong Worst Case comp: Doesn't make it in the majors/Scooter Gennett LHP Josh Hader Best Case comp: Chris Sale Likely comp: Drew Symly Worst Case comp: Doesn't make it in the majors as a starter/bullpen LHP RHP Corbin Burnes Best Case comp: Michael Wacha Likely comp: Jered Eickhoff Worst Case comp: Doesn't make it in the majors/Jed Bradley RHP Brandon Woodruff Best Case comp: Dan Straily Likely comp: Collin McHugh Worst Case comp: Doesn't make it in the majors/Cody Scarpetta We all have high hopes for these minor leaguers and I hope at least one reaches their talent ceiling (best case comp) at the Major League level as a Brewer. However, I simply would not consider Alcides Escobar, Kolten Wong, Drew Symly, Jered Eickhoff, and Colin McHugh as core players on their teams, I guess. Valuable league average regulars and mid-rotation starters, yes. Core players? not yet, at least. I appreciate the response and effort you put in but I asked for your reasoning. Not player comps. Everybody is capable of throwing out player comps, which shields them from articulating what they see/know/think about a player's skill set on both sides of the ball as well as other variables (work ethic, attitude, cultural fit, etc) For example, I'll use your likely comparison of Arcia vs Escobar but mainly focus on Arcia since he's on our team.... Arcia is head and shoulders better than Escobar. Their defense is equal enough where it'll be splitting hairs once Arcia gains experience. Offensively, in 6 of Escobar's 8 full seasons he's had a BA above 261 TWICE, an OBP above 293 TWICE, an OPS above 642 TWICE, more than 4HR in a season TWICE and his SB total has dropped off hard since 2014. Like Arcia, he's a guy who puts the ball in play so doesn't BB or K much. Arcia is 8yrs younger and already putting up what would be the best season in Escobar's career. His approach at the plate is far better than Escobar. His ability to consistently hit middle/oppo is insanely polished, especially given his age, and that is a tremendous asset for him moving toward becoming a consistent all-around hitter as he continues to physically and mentally mature. As a rookie, he's already made mechanical adjustments with his timing mechanism that allowed him to stay back more consistently and keep his bat in the zone longer barreling up the ball. He's no slouch at stealing bases and will swipe 20+ but he most likely won't be as good as Escobar in that area, however, he will hit 4x as many HR as Escobar typically hits. Nothing but positives regarding his work ethic, being a great teammate and enjoying playing the game. Arcia was a blue chip prospect at the ultimate premium defensive position and thus far in his first full season he's showing everyone why and how good he can grow to become. This is what a core player looks like (and not sure how you can say Escobar hasn't been a core player when he's been KC's starting SS for 8yrs straight including back to back WS appearances and a ring). Once Arcia taps into consistency on the offensive side he'll be a multi-time AS. Regarding the highlighted comment, none of those guys are on our team and no 2 players are exactly the same. It doesn't matter if you consider them core players on their respective teams. Put them on another team and they might be - every team is built differently. They're not the subject matter, our players are and you were asked to explain why and you couldn't so you resorted to player comps. Also, your original post stated you said Arcia/Hiura were average middle infielders and Hader/Woodruff/Burnes were back-end starters....now you're saying they're mid-rotation? Which is it.... It should be highlighted further their minor league histories in comparing Arcia to Escobar. Arcia was 1-2 years younger than Escobar at every level. Escobar was hitting 2-3 hr most years in the minors while Arcia has been between 4 and 8 with a 19-21 year old wiry/undeveloped body. It was impossible to envision Escobar being a consistent double digit hr guy coming up, while Arcia has a good chance to crack 20 a few times in his career. It would be reasonable to expect similar defense, similar avg/obp(i think arcia will be slightly better), arcia being slightly worse on the bases but having significantly more power than escobar. And that's not even talking about the upside of Arcia adding some good weight and turning into a consistent 20 hr guy. He's on pace to hit 15-17 this season at age 22/23. And it won't just be hr, he'll hit many more xbh than escobar.

I like the idea, but that cost is a bit high. I would look at the Gio Gonzalez trade a few years back as a way to gauge what Manaea might be worth. I think Gonzalez has more value than Manaea as he was more established at the time and still had plenty of control. Manaea hasn't had a ton of success yet. I think we are talking about Ortiz, Peralta, Jungmann and Phillips or Ray in a trade for Manaea. Jungmann doesn't have much value, the other guys are key. In the trade for Gonzalez the A's got 2 pitchers, a position player, and a guy in Milone that wasn't expected to be much. Jungmann would be the milone in this case. That might be too much to give up for Manaea, but it's an interesting idea for sure.

I feel like it happens a decent amount for position players, but never for starters. I remember seeing Pence get pulled off the field and emotional in the Astros clubhouse before anything was officially announced of his trade to the Giants. I'd have to think all the media types would be all over that kind of thing.

Tongue in cheek comments coming from the guy advocating letting Oakland have an open house at our prospect store for a mid-rotation starter with a ton of red flags and only 2 years of team control. We should see if they'd also want Arcia and Nelson in your prospect giveaway.

No Gray's value is already set one game is not going to move his value one way or the other. Then why do teams even send scouts to games if that was the case??? That's correct - the answer is in the middle somewhere. Gray does not have static value, it will fluctuate over even short periods of time. That said, even a "blow up" start where he seems to be healthy may not have a significant impact on his asking price. It may make a few teams more hesitant, but it may well also may make a few teams more emboldened to pounce due to thinking they can capitalize on that competing party hesitance. I tend to agree. They likely send scouts to get a fresh look at a guy to compare to their current scouting reports before making a trade. If Gray goes out tomorrow and fires 3 mph lower than his scouting report indicates, or his breaking pitch isn't sharp, or he's missing his spots, or maybe he just doesn't appear healthy...that would all certainly be good to know and consider before making any decision on the guy.

I'm talking specifically the caliber pitcher. You can't compare the trades really as like you said it's in season but also prospects are much more highly valued now than 5+ years ago. Also I'm pretty sure Melvin overpaid for Marcum.

Sonny Gray isn't a front line starter currently any more than Chase Anderson or Jimmy Nelson currently is one or Corbin Burnes, Brandon Woodruff, Josh Hader or Luis Ortiz could or couldn't be one. I'm not against getting Gray but if we expect to be acquiring a TOR starter we will be disappointed . This...EXACTLY. Trading for Gray would be more like dealing for Marcum than for either Greinke or Sabathia from a caliber of pitcher standpoint. I'd also be hesitant to not consider woodruff in the "frontline starter" conversation. His body of work and scouting reports over the last year and a half indicate he might be a stud.

I have to third this, wow wow wow what an overpay. I wouldn't give woodruff on his own for gray. I could be talked into Philips and dubon and that's it, maximum. Anything over that is an overpay. Gray is not a frontline starter. Lord have mercy! That would be a tremendous overpay by the Brewers!!!! I could see a deal like that for Stroman, but Gray? Wow You do understand that in 2016/2017 combined Gray has a 4.86 ERA (with a pitchers park as a home field) with a 1.354 WHIP and an 84 ERA+ Agreed. In no way does Stearns make a deal like this without vastly overpaying. For Stroman this would be a fair deal. For Gray this is a disaster. And stearns owes the organization his best, not this year's current team in my humble opinion. Those aren't necessarily the same thing.

Or not doing anything is showing he believes that this team as is can make a run at the division...

I'm not sure relying on a pitcher whose never pitched a major league inning or two guys who are back from fairly significant injuries is the best decision either. By the time you know what you have in Woodruff and you see if Anderson is the same Anderson as he was before he got hurt you're opportunity to get a quality player will be gone. We have an amazing amount of depth in the outfield. Unfortunately we can't have six guys playing the outfield a the same time so unless you think it's a good idea to keep guys like Brinson and Phillips either in the minors or on the bench then you best trade someone to help alleviate the logjam (and yes it is a logjam at this point). Trading from a huge area of depth to acquire a solid MLB player with multiple years of control on a very reasonable contact is not as big a risk as some are making it out to be. Not to mention the other is a career sub .250 hitter with zero power that had been enjoying a hot stretch. The right trade is one thing. Panicking over losing 3 out of 5 and overpaying is another. I'm not opposed to a trade that has ray or Philips as the center piece and doesn't touch our top 10 prospects aside from 1 of those 2. Keep in mind gray is an undersized, injury prone, rh pitcher without elite velocity. He also posted an era in the 5s last year. He'd also be moving from a pitcher friendly to hitter friendly park. Lots of red flags and things to consider.

Exactly this! Not sure what DS is waiting for?? They need a shot in the arm! If Gray is the target, why in the world would you let him pitch for Oakland tomorrow night. Quit sitting on your hands DS, the division lead is dwindling! I'd rather the shot in the arm be woodruff/sogard coming back in a week or two... or Anderson next month. Panicking over a 5 game stretch for a "shot in the arm" is absolutely not the right decision here.

The return is incredibly light, but not many contenders needed outfield help... so very few bidders to drive up the price. Detroit saved their owners a few bucks and solidified their upper minors middle infield depth. There's value in that, especially for the owner. Heck, maybe they get lucky and one of these prospects sees some time on an mlb bench as a utility man.

When I watch Jungmann pitch I don't see an MLB pitcher. Depends on when you looked. Jungmann was solid for 15 or so starts just 2 years ago, and he's been very good at AAA this year. He's no prime prospect but he fits very well as a 3rd piece in a Gray trade as he could step into their rotation right now. Having a guy like that in the offer might help swing a deal in their direction or allow you too not give up quite as much with the top pieces. As far as his Brewer future, only if they fall too far behind and want to look at 2018 candidates in September. When Jungmann's mechanics are working and he's hitting 94-95 with his fastball, he's an MLB caliber pitcher. That's what we saw 2 years ago. When he's sitting very low 90s and can't spot his pitches, he can't even have success in AA. That's what we saw last year. I agree with Briggs and like the idea of dealing Jungmann whether we can get good value for him or not as I'm not willing to deal with his stretches of mechanics being out of sync.

I sure hope we don't actually give all that up for Gray. It's amazing to me how much people on the board are willing to give up for Gray. He's an undersized rh starting pitcher with significant injury history that doesn't have elite velocity and is coming off a 5.5+ ERA season. He's also moving to a much more hitter friendly environment if we trade for him. And he'll have to start hitting for himself and running the bases with that injury history. Red flag after red flag after red flag. I wouldn't even consider giving up a top 6 or 7 prospect for him. Woodruff, Hader, Brinson, Burnes, Diaz, and Erceg are completely off the table for me. That alone probably means someone else beats us in the bidding, which is just fine and what I'm hoping for. I think trading for Gray would be a bad move, I don't think he will continue to be as effective going forward as he was during his first couple years in the majors. I get that Gray isn't really a 5 ERA pitcher. I also get that the market is light on starting pitching this deadline. That doesn't mean there's some sort of requirement to overpay. IF we do make a move for Gray, I hope it's centered around either Clark or Ray. I'd be willing to include Diplan or Peralta...an undersized RH pitcher...and an upside flier or an upper level depth type like Cordell. That's the best I'd do, that's the most I think he's worth in prospects.

Shaw's first shot was last year and injury/slump/Boston needs to win now took AB's away from him so this is really the first time he's been given regular AB's. This is Jimmy's 3rd full season and his numbers progressively got worse until this year. Shaw's playing maybe a little over his head but I think what's he been so far is pretty close to what he really his. I have no idea what to think of Jimmy. We thought Peralta had figured it at one point and now he's pretty much toast. Wily was lazy. Dude was so out of shape this season. I've read and seen a much better work ethic from nelson. Peralta never committed to developing new pitches like nelson did, and surely never worked at it like nelson. I'm much more apt to believe in a guy with that kind of talent with an incredible work ethic than a talented lazy dude.

Nelson has shown flashes of dominance every year he's been up. Sustaining it sometimes takes maturity. Shaw was a 9th round pick. He wasn't handed a job in the majors. He posted an .813 OPS as a 25 year old rookie in 2015 in 65 games. Now he's putting up numbers we haven't seen from a LH hitting 3rd baseman in Milwaukee since the heyday of the great Eddie Mathews. I'd say he's part of the core. This is probably a career year for Shaw, I highly doubt he ever has another year like this. I'm a bit nervous that Stearns will overpay on an extension for him this off season. Nelson has a phenomenal work ethic and it shows. The main things I've noticed this season are improved command and sequencing of his pitches. The high and away fastball and curve for a strike are a devastating combo for him right now. With his work ethic, I think he'll continue to get better. Santana I think is a very good hitter but not a star to the point that his production can't be replaced by our stock of outfielders. He also is a liability in the field, so the bat has to carry him. I'm less concerned with a "core" which I think lead to a window situation rather than sustained success. Find a way to keep the stars and cycle out above average players to keep talent coming in. Nelson I would for sure try to extend, Shaw I'd explore but I'm more hesitant, Santana I almost certainly would keep through arbitration and try and trade with 1-2 years of team control left... assuming he keeps producing of course.

I don't think you can say it doesn't effect them, but I think it's minimal. While not a crapshoot nor an absolute certainty, the Cubs Head to Head lines up 3,4,5 against the Brewers at end of July, 2,3,4 in early September and 3,4,5,1 in late September. So 3 starts? And only see Arrietta and Lester once a piece. I'm not wringing my hands over this. The Brewers have the 3rd easiest schedule, statistically speaking in MLB the 2nd half. Just beat who you should beat, go .500 against the Cubs and Cardinals and make the Cubs play .620 ball over the final 70 games. Quintana doesn't change much with what the Brewers have to do. Head to head matchups between the Brewers and Cubs are almost meaningless during the regular season considering its 6 of 70 remaining games. Quintana makes the Cubs rotation better right now and will help them win more games during the regular season. That's how this move affects the Brewers right now.

Judging from the crickets, guessing this is not a viable option? That's not proper accounting, and you'd surely get in big trouble if the IRS found out as you'd basically be severely understating your income by kicking his whole contract to expense without good reason. And there's no logical reason to do that anyways. What's more realistic is to earmark a chunk of profit during these low payroll years through strategic planning and spend more as needed when we compete. I would be very surprised if they haven't done that the last few years.

16-9

Focus right now isn't on rebuilding, it's on winning a very winnable division (have you looked at the lineups the Cubs are throwing out there now?) The young talent acquisition phase of the rebuild is on hold while the division there to be won this year. Besides, their entire roster other than Sogard is controllable beyond this year. They are trying to increase the chances this year without surrendering young core and future core talent. This type of move makes sense. Fangraphs currently has us at 5.8% to win the division. We can debate all day on the accuracy of that but I think most would agree the odds are long. A 1 game division lead in June is meaningless. Heck, a 1 game division lead on Labor Day is pretty meaningless. Not really sure what you mean about the Cubs' lineups, 1-6 they're about as talented as any out there, they're just not playing well right now . I also don't agree that the young talent acquisition phase is on hold. That's a continuous process. They are trying to build a lasting long-term foundation, not cobble together enough talent to go for it when they have a small positive deviation from their expected record for half a season. Now that doesn't mean they aren't trying to win this year, and in that regard I do agree with you -- this makes sense, and moves like this make sense, I just think people will be disappointed if they expect bigger buys. But I would agree they are trying to increase chances with moves like these - the 2016 Brewers would have had no interest in Vogt. Which 1-6 for the cubs are as talented as any out there? You have Rizzo and Bryant as talented as any 2, that's fair. Beyond that Russell/Baez and their fringe 700 career ops's with decent but not great numbers this year. Contreras came back to earth after playing way over his head his rookie year. Zobrist having a down year, and he's 36 so he might be done being an incredibly productive major leaguer. Happ is hitting well, but his power numbers are substantially higher than his minor league numbers. Hard to say it's for real yet. Point being, let's not kid ourselves on this cubs team. They have 2 studs, a rookie who's on fire, and a very pedestrian rest of the lineup...at least offensively.

The 2007 Rockies jump out at me. That September/October run was incredible.

Technically Garza(or any starter) could be traded as well.

Yea, I also get why people don't think the changes are happening fast enough. But it does bug me when they say noting is being done. There's been plenty of changes, and that will continue. Torres and Barnes have definitely been over-used. So now that Hader is up we will see him take some of that load off. Drake has had some great outings, I think it's just a case of not giving up on him too soon. Peralta has had plenty of success, as recently as late last season. So I get why they want to give him plenty of leash to figure it out. I would guess one/both will be gone by the AS break if they continue to be inconsistent/horrible. I tend to agree, you can't give up on a guy as soon as he gives up a run or has a couple bad outings. All you'd have left is knebel. I feel like the front office has made moves at relatively the appropriate time. The only guy I'm ready to give up on is Peralta(which if for wang gives us probably enough flexibility to rotate fresh arms in). The guy hasn't had a scoreless outing in nearly a month(and it's not like he was doing well before that), and plenty of rest between outings that he shouldn't be fatigued. And his walks are out of control. I can't imagine him even making it to the all star break.