KeithStone53151

I thought about this recently as well...what are everyone's thoughts on resigning him? He's had a down year, but what would his potential free agent contract look like? He's been a solid left handed bat for his career, has some pop, can play all over the infield. He is going to turn 32 in September, which is slightly scary I guess. Thoughts? If we did sign him, that pushes Villar into a backup role (but probably still starting 2-3 times a week as Walker can move around). We have Villar currently and a few good 2b options coming through the system. I would roll into next year with Villar on the inside track for a starting job and a veteran or 2 on minor league contracts as depth in ST. If Villar fails, Dubon or veteran or Perez would fill that gap next year. By 2019, I would like to think Hiura or Diaz will have moved up in the system and start getting considered for the MLB 2b role. Signing Walker to a 2 year deal could work if you had a ton of faith in him and none in Villar. If he had a good year, that contract could be tradeable after the first year if Hiura or Diaz are pounding on the door. I personally would rather role with Villar and our prospects and use that payroll on pitching.

Boras would absolutely lose his mind if Davies was sent to the bullpen with Garza given a rotation spot over him. I would have some interesting and hilarious tweets rolling through my feed to say the least. We certainly do have a problem of too many back end rotation/fringe MLB starting options. I agree it would be nice to see some traded for value if possible.

Good point. That or they could send up someone on short rest for one start(I doubt they do this). Also possible we try and use Hader and Jeffress to eat 5-6 innings in a bullpen game on Tuesday considering we will have an off day coming up. I can't see them rushing Anderson who is coming off injury. Most likely we bring up someone for a spot start. It will be an interesting decision for sure. I wonder how prepared Woodruff will be to face major league hitters in Colorado after pitching there most of the year.

Perhaps that's why he's having so much success out of the pen. I think if we still opt to try him out as a starter, and even though i dont think he'll ultimately end up a starter I do think we should at least try him until he proves he can't be a starter, then it needs to be in AAA. The rebuild is much further along than expected and this offseason can be used to address our current weaknesses (bullpen, second base, CF). I doubt we can expect Anderson and Nelson to put up as good a year next year as they are having this year but if they do this team can definitely compete again. And if you're going to compete you don't want to use up a rotation spot on a guy still trying to figure things out. Consistent 4-6 inning starts will be bullpen killers. You don't think throwing him back into Colorado Springs would be bad for his development? With a guy as talented as Hader, you have to give him a real chance to sink or swim at this level. The only way I think Hader doesn't get a shot at the rotation is if we make a big splash signing and head into ST with FA, Nelson, Anderson, Davies with only one spot for him or Woodruff. Someone like Garza should not get a spot over Hader. And on a side, CF is the biggest strength in our system and we'll head into ST with Broxton, Brinson, and Phillips vying for the starting role. Your desire to address CF in the offseason(which implies via trade of FA) shows that you have literally zero willingness to give any prospect a chance at the MLB level. Looking at what Brinson and Phillips are doing at AAA, how in the world can you not even consider them for a starting gig at the MLB level next season?

That means almost literally nothing regarding what he said about his command. It's absolutely a fact that unless Hader makes significant improvements with regard to both his command and control within the zone he won't be a starter. I'll take that a step further and say that he can't maintain this type of walk rate and be a successful reliever in the big leagues. Sale also had a better FIP that year and walked about 3 fewer batters per 9 IP. I can't think of a pitcher who walks nearly 7 guys per 9 IP who's had success at the big league level. You see Hader and you see he can be a really good pitcher. His stuff is exceptional, he's deceptive, etc..etc..etc..and I believe he will be. But you can't use pitches thrown and ERA, ESPECIALLY in such a tiny sample size to make any viable comparison or statement about how he can maintain future success without improving. Again, I think he will so I'm not bashing him. But there is no doubt that a starting pitcher cannot get away with that many walks and having to use that many pitches to get outs. It's just not sustainable. Comps with young players are almost always ridiculous like this. Remember when Nelson was drafted and people used Suppan as a comp and most people were then disgusted with the pick? Suppan had a career WAR of 20.4. Nelson had 4 career WAR entering this year. So that's probably why people are overly ambitious with their comps. Realistic ones aren't nearly as fun! I guess the best optimistic comp would be Andrew Miller though. There just aren't that many lanky lefties with that similar delivery who've had success. I think Hader's career has a better chance to be similar to Miller's than anyone else that comes to mind while still falling short, but I'm still holding out hope he can carve out a stop atop our rotation for the next 4-5 or so years. Oh boy, where to begin. Pitchers tend to pitch differently out of the pen than out of the rotation. Using extra pitches isn't as big a deal as they aren't trying to eat up a ton of innings. Also Hader has a very good track record in multiple minor league seasons, so it's not like I'm basing my opinion on him solely on the 25 MLB innings he's pitched in a different role than he's used to, nor should anyone else. Chris Sale is the dream outcome for Hader, and it isn't unrealistic as they are very similar. The numbers are reasonably close, and more to the point is that Sale clearly wasn't a finished product upon starting in his bullpen role at the MLB level. He developed and improved at this level and is now an absolute star. I don't think anybody is trying to say that Hader is good as is and doesn't need to improve. The crux of the discussion is whether he should enter the MLB rotation to start 2018 or serve another role(AAA starter, AA starter, MLB bullpen). My standpoint is, give him the inside track in ST to open in the 2018 mlb rotation. He'll have command issues and some short outings, but we are in a rebuild and he'll learn and develop much more at this level than any of the alternative options. He'll also likely have some very good outings to offset some bad ones and I would think will have a floor of a #5 SP statistically cumulatively next season. And regarding Nelson, you conveniently leave out that Nelson currently has 4 WAR this season already and is only 28. Suppan never had a season of 3 WAR. And using WAR to prove your point that those 2 pitchers were a good comp for each other is...wow. Have you actually seen both pitchers pitch? The only way they are similar pitchers is that they both throw right handed, and apparently their WAR...or something. But that's apparently a thing...find one advanced metric that sorta/kinda proves your point and your standpoint is the bible. Nelson drastically improved his stuff since being drafted and is a power pitcher, which at that point the comp is gone and baseless since that's not what Suppan ever was.

Only way they come cheaper is if you've developed them or traded for them while they are in the minors... Which kinda describes Davies, Suter, Woodruff... y'know, three-fifths of the current Brewers rotation. As well as Nelson. He still playing on a pre arby contract this year. And we have a nice group who could follow these guys starting with Burnes, Ortiz and Peralta potentially as soon as next year and then guys like Bickford, Supak, Diplan and others right behind them(I know I left a whole lot of guys out). Yet there's always a need for pitching prospects. And a guy like Garza is basically like a lottery ticket. You trade him to a team that has some question marks in their pen and to a team that expects to contend and you target a couple 18 year old kids and hope that like Peralta blossomed from that Line trade, they do the same. If they don't, it's not like it cost you anything(just talking about the team option next year, not his contract as a whole). $5 million for a back of the rotation starter isn't that expensive, but it's not like it's this steal of a deal. We can likely get similar production with much more upside from Woodruff/Hader/Suter next year, while also having much more upside and offering growth for the future by letting these guys pitch at the mlb level. Generally speaking, our goal should be not to have any back of the rotation type starters in our rotation. Hence why we need to give the prospects a chance as they have more upside than back of the rotation. The types of teams that sign back of the rotation guys are teams like the 2008-2012 brewers that had next to no farm and no prospects to call up and give a shot to. I can't imagine a scenario in which Garza is on this team next year.

I doubt this trade is completed before the rule 5 draft. They have until mid February, I believe rule 5 draft will be before that. I don't think anyone should worry about a substantial return for the Mets.

Why would they DFA him? Who plays 2b next year? It's not like we won't have the payroll flexibility for his first arby year, even as depth of he doesn't return to form.

Isn't counsel being considered for manager of the Year?

You are right.... they are making a needed move that I have been calling for, and that should be mentioned. Good move. Yet, why the wait? I guess the big thing with me is that they have played so poorly, hit so poorly, and everyone has their fake smile on about how we are right in it. Just get Villar away (trade him for something if he has this load of future star talent) and beat bad teams at home. Not a lot to ask.... the people predicting flop after the break didn't even think they would be this bad. So frustrating and people are venting. This isn't a video game. This stuff doesn't happen instantly. It takes time for guys to clear waivers and teams to negotiate and do physicals and all that jazz. Maybe the Mets gm wasn't in a huge hurry or wanted to test the market a bit before completing a trade. I'm glad we made the move, contingent on the cost of course. Neil walker will help down the stretch. Might not be enough but I'm glad to see these little moves to try improve.

I tend to agree. You can even add to that he hasn't played a single inning in the field. Hard to know anything about his eta until then.

Good God you people sure can whine. Some of you simply can't be positive about anything... it's quite something. Facts do not equal whining. Sorry you feel otherwise. Your ops was a fact, the rest was clearly whining.

Good God you people sure can whine. Some of you simply can't be positive about anything... it's quite something.

Gotta love the fight we showed today. Would have been really easy to go through the motions, especially with how we've been playing. I was happy to see some scoring and the bullpen did ok, especially considering we used our worse relievers. I habe to wonder if counsel should have pulled the plug on nelson sooner. Clearly he didn't have it today

Chris Sale in 2010 out of the bullpen threw 392 pitches in 23.1 innings. Josh Hader this year has thrown 402 pitches in 22.1 innings. Josh Hader has a .81 ERA versus Sale having a 1.93 ERA in 2010.

I like that CC went back to the original order. I don't think his tinkering helped anything. Villar had better at bats yesterday, even aside from his 2 hits. If the Brewers did claim Kinsler, he would likely hit leadoff so nothing would change except Villar getting glued to the bench.

A few questions: I'm not a huge fan of Phillips in his current state but surely would take him to finish the season for the heck of it. A. Does the "free" thing really transfer? Is it possible that his contract gets dealt to the Brewers but the portion paid by the Reds stays with the Braves? B. Now that he's cleared waivers, is it possible that teams that passed on the last round of waivers will be bidding for him, allowing the Braves to drive up the asking price to being a prospect or two? I'm just scratching my head on how a solid player that would cost basically nothing completely clears waivers and would be given away for nothing after clearing waivers. I'm not a fan of him but I feel like at least 4 or 5 teams would take him for free. That means no team thinks he's worth paying the amount remaining on his contract. There might be bidding by teams, but the end result will certainly be viewed as less value than the $ remaining on his contract. Contending teams for the most part have been fairly set at position players. Hence why solid guys like JD Martinez, Jay Bruce, to some extent Alex Avila, etc have been traded for next to nothing.

I highly suspect that Stearns has explored the idea of adding Phillips, and the cost to do so. I expect the brewers to make exactly 1 offensive move, replacing Sogard with someone external. Might be CF, might be 2b. It's nice that we have many options and not many other teams looking to add offense. It's a buyers market for the positions we seek and that's a good thing. Aside from talent, I think Phillips would be a fantastic fit in the clubhouse.

Hahahaha I liked this. It's absolutely possible that his primary goal here is to boost his stock by adding the "positive clubhouse influence" accolade to his resume. If the Brewers get hot starting this weekend, how much credit might go to Garza? I personally don't think that's the case. I think the year he got punted from the rotation and refused a bullpen assignment that his attitude was at an all time low, but he came back to spring training refreshed and has been very positive and a good influence in general ever since. I've noticed him paying attention to the games he's not pitching and calling things out to players on the field, whereas it would sure be easy to sit in the back of the dugout and relax with other SP's. Regardless of his intentions. If the pep talk helps, that's fantastic pretty much all around. First and foremost, the brewers playing better helps now. If Garza gets tabbed as a leader/good clubhouse presence, that certainly would help us get value in a trade and expand the number of teams that might be interested. Maybe a team in a total rebuild like the padres would benefit from a bit of stability/veteran leadership in a SP role for a year.

I think the answer at 2b is going to be a very low cost outside acquisition rental type. It's possible DeJesus is on a Sogard like tear and could stay hot for an extended amount of time down the stretch. I think the coaches would have a better feel for it and switch him and Sogard if that was the case. Sogard and DeJesus were both performing well when they picked Sogard to come up and help out, clearly that was done for a reason. I think many are duped by Sogard's hot stretch. Phillips and Brinson are both way way more talented than either player and neither came up from great AAA numbers and had the immediate success Sogard had. Sogard's time at the mlb level is done. His hot stretch is over, he's back to being an AA caliber talent and doesn't warrant a 25 man spot. If we look outside at a kinsler or lowrie(or even an outfielder to let Perez take 2b full time), you can bet that Sogard is the one that goes.

I apologize I forgot the few starts he had when had first came here. So in his two plus years here he's gone at least 7 innings in two of his 44 starts. Ill add that in 2015 those were the only two starts in which he went 7 innings all year (he had 10 more starts prior to coming here) so in the past 3 seasons he's had starts of at least 7 innings in 2 of 54 starts. My beliefs are based entirely on the numbers. If anything is not based on factual evidence its yours, using pitches per inning averages to tell me exactly how many pitches he would have had if he had been allowed to pitch another inning. Because that's how it works right? If you average 17 pitches for the first 6 innings then obviously you'll have 17 pitches in the 7th inning? And that pattern repeats itself for every single start? You bring up the fact that last year he had 10 starts out of 25 in which he lasted 6 innings (as if that somehow helps your case). What about the 8 that he last fewer than 5 innings? 4 innings pitched and pitch counts of 84, 83, 87, 96 (that's 168 pitches for 7 innings using your logic by the way), and 73. 3 innings with pitch counts of 71 and 72. 3 2/3 innings with 85 pitches. Or what about his 5 inning starts? Pitch counts of 87, 86, 102 and 88. Maybe this year is doing better? His last three starts prior to coming up: 2 innings, 2 innings, and 3 innings. 43 pitches, 39 pitches and 74 pitches. The start before that 4.1 innings 92 pitches. Before that 5 innings 84 pitches. Could he have gone another inning in any or all of these starts? Maybe. Maybe not. Why is he being taken out after only 73 pitches? Is it always to keep his pitch count low or could it be because he just isn't pitching that well, in which case his pitch count is irrelevant. But really what difference does it make? He's simply throwing too many pitches and not lasting long enough consistently to be a good major league starter. Maybe he isn't "consistently" only going 5 innings. But he's going 5 and less a hell of a lot more often than he's going 6 and more. You'll have to define "typically" but I think I've shown that this is just plain wrong. He would not "typically" last 6 or 7 innings if he were allowed to go 100+ pitches. Maybe in a few of them. But again, why is he not going more pitches in some of these starts? Your implication that its all about pitch count is not accurate Even so, 100-110 pitches is still a lot of pitches to be throwing in that in 6 innings And what of the fact that major leaguers are less likely to swing at stuff out of the zone than minor leaguers? So it's entirely possible that his pitch count would actually go up once he starts here is it not? He's doing great out of the bullpen but would he have the same success when guys see him for a second or third time? Again, I have yet to see any scouting reports saying that he is for sure a starting pitcher. Almost every report I've seen (and admittedly I havent gone out of my way to look for them) has serious questions about his ability to stay a starter because of his command and quality third pitch. You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But I am welcome to mine as well. And mine is that until he developes an at least average third pitch and his command improves and/or he learns to pitch to contact better and can CONSISTENTLY go 6 or 7 innings then he is not a major league starter. Comparing Nelson to Hader isn't apples to apples as Nelson was a college draftee and older and there wasn't as much concern with his innings. He threw plenty in college and 142 innings his first full season. Note how Ponce and Burnes were allowed into the 100 pitch area and reaching 7 innings often. Only recently did the Brewers start limiting Burnes to 70-80 pitches and 5-6 innings. I think the brewers were intentionally trying to limit Hader's innings at AA so he wouldn't blow by his innings limit in July. Hence him getting pulled after 5 innings and 80 pitches pretty consistently. It should be blatantly obvious that if allowed to throw into the 100 pitch range, he would last longer than 5 innings in a majority of his starts. I'm sure you can find a few where he was mid-upper 90s after 5 innings, but the majority of the time he was in the low 80s and absolutely prepared to go deeper into the game. Grabbing his last 3 starts prior to MLB promotion of low innings is meaningless as he was being groomed for a 2017 bullpen role and that was planned. I think monty hit the main point that we all agree Hader isn't a final product. I'm in the camp that come 2018, him and Woodruff should have the inside track on the final 2 rotation spots heading into spring training. The alternatives are to send him back to the launching pad where it's impossible to work on consistency, send him to the MLB bullpen full time, or send him to AA. Far and away, the best option is to let him take his lumps at the MLB level next season. I think he'll have enough success to help the team, and improve at a much faster rate than he would at any of the other alternative options. Just because we are having unexpected success this year doesn't mean we stray from the plan. Draft/acquire/develop young talent.

Scooter plays PT, benefits from playing at Great American, and is hitting .551 OPS vs LHP. I said at the time I thought it was a bad idea to let him go. At the same time I understood the logic, and still do. Scooter is a platoon 2B, and that's really hard to justify on a 25 man roster. Sure they wish they had him now, that happens. Kinda like how the red sox greatly regret the shaw trade...the end result of this decision pales in comparison to that massive blunder.

I agree. He's not going to get the innings he should, and if he is indeed not throwing his secondary pitches, they are not going to develop. The current usage is one that could turn a potential top-of-the-rotation starter into a situational reliever. He could definitely use more time in the minors, but the ineptitude of the bullpen was enough that the Brewers brought him up in a pennant race. That decision could help this year's team, but it could really hurt his future. Like you, I really hope there is a plan in place that I'm just not seeing. This is one of the primary reasons why I think he gets put into the rotation next year, this along with his stuff/ceiling/milb results. He will surely struggle at times with command and take his lumps, but the alternative is either more time in AAA or full time relief duty. And we've seen 3+ innings stints this year of sheer dominance, I'm sure he'll have some similarly dominant outings as a starter to go with the outings in which he struggles. Most guys aren't going to come up to the MLB level and have nothing but tremendous success immediately. Hader having some struggles in 2018 will be completely worth it if he learns from it and further develops at the mlb level.

I think the market will be limited for Garza. It's going to have to be an at least decent team with a bad GM and no decent in house options. The Orioles and Angels come to mind immediately, a couple others may fit that mold. I assume Stearns will do his research and ideally would have a trade lined up before even exercising the option. Just remember how long it took for Fister to find work this season...and his peak was better than Garza's peak AND his prior 2 years weren't nearly as bad as Garza's prior 2.

The difference between feliz and Garza is feliz had legit upside. He was a gamble that failed. Garzas ceiling is a fringe successful #5. Woodruff has built his innings up to the point that I think he would be allowed to go over 180 innings if he succeeds. I understand that would only be 4 spots. It is possible we look at a free agent. With the team performance this year, I think it's more likely we look for a high quality rotation option rather than a back end guy. I think suter can give us roughly what we'd pay Garza 5 million for, but I think we'll aim to have 5 starters better than both with suter being a spot starter or swing man in the pen at league minimum.