paul253

This should be a no brainer, too often on this board some us only look at dollars (I would love to go see the Ramirez bashers and the posts stating Taylor Green can play 3b posts) [smile] Why should it be a no brainer? Even if he signs a 2 year extension, that would take him through the 2015 season. What do you do with Hunter Morris for the next 3 years? Let him rot away in Nashville for three years like Gamel? Bring him up and sit him on the bench like you did Taylor Green? Treating young players like that is a disaster and it's been something Milwaukee has been doing too often over the last few years because of their over reliance on expensive veterans. It's easy to sit here and look at Taylor Green's stats with his one start every 3 or 4 days at a position he's never played before and say "see I told you so". But you have no idea how he would have fared playing his natural position and getting consistent at bats. I'm not suggesting he'd have been an all star or anything, or even succeeded enough to keep the position, but to sit here and act like he would have hit .125 and isn't good enough to be a major league regular is unfair. Davis, Gindl, Morris are unproven and how many rookies have flamed out, I hate to point this out, but at one time Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Lucroy, and Hart were all "unproven" too. All prospects are. How exactly do you prove yourself without actually getting a chance? Should we go out an sign two free agent pitchers this offseason because Tyler Thornburg and Wily Peralta are "unproven"? As I recall Mike Fiers was pretty unproven coming into this season. And Jean Segura certainly was. we gave Gamel a chance and he couldn't make it through a season. Give me a break. The guy tore his ACL hustling to try to catch a foul ball. You are actually going to use that against him and suggest it has something to do with his ability? He was doing fine before that. He had a little 3 game mini slump the injury which made his overall numbers look worse than they were. On April 23, he was hitting .281 with a .333 OBP and .404 slugging. That was through 17 games. Over the next 3 games he only hit 1-12 which dropped his average to .246. Then he got hurt. I have no doubt had he not been injured he could have maintained an average around .270 and OBP around .330. Corey Hart is hitting .276 with an OBP of .333. Yes he is slugging better and probably plays better defense, but he'd also be making about $12 million a year more than Gamel. What I'd like to see done is this. If they don't trade Hart in the offseason, let him play out the 2013 season. If it looks like Morris has continued his improvement, or if Hart's numbers drop off, then let Hart walk away the season. If Morris struggles in AAA and Gamel and Davis struggle too, then offer Hart a one or two year extension. If Hart really wants to stay as badly as he suggests, then no need to rush a contract extension.

Segura was MLB ready too. So was Thornburg I may argue that both Thornburg and Segura were NOT ready. I'd have preferred to see Segura play out the year in Nashville. Thornburg, while good in Hunstville as well, could also have used some time in Nashville and now that he's getting it I think it makes him much more ready. Morris, unlike the other two, is likely to get at least an entire year in Nashville before he'd even be considered for a major league role. As I've said many times before, this is my problem with extending Corey Hart: Mat Gamel, Nori Aoki, Khris Davis, Caleb Gindl, Hunter Morris. That's 5 guys at AA or higher who can play the two positions that Corey Hart can play, all at a fraction of cost. I really think Corey Hart could bring back a #2 or #3 ceiling pitcher if traded this offseason. I think the Brewers should consider that.

Does anyone know if he has ever played at 1B, or are we talking about a pipe dream here? He has not played first base. I am one of the posters who has mentioned it. The thinking is that we are loaded with outfielders but Davis' bat is too good to sit. There aren't a whole lot of positions easier than first base to switch to. If for some reason Gamel and Morris don't cut it I was just thinking he'd be an option.

We're NOT small market, we had a $100 million dollar payroll this year. CRIPES you guys!!!! A payroll that Mark A. more or less said was stretched about as far as it can be. Beside, you can't just equate team payroll and market size. At the beginning of the year we had a higher payroll than the Cubs, Mets and Dodgers. That doesn't mean we are in a larger market than they are. By almost all accounts we are one of the smallest markets in baseball. Continuing to sign expensive free agents and extend your veterans with multimillion dollar deals is not a sustainable course of action for teams like the Brewers.

Thank goodness your not our GM, Hart for a prospect. I don't think so. The Brewers should immediately offer him a contract similar to Ramirez. This team isn't far away from contending rebuild the bullpen and get a RF and we're right back in it next year. A small market team trading away an aging veteran for a cheap, high ceiling player you control for 6 years? My lord how could anyone even suggest such a thing? Let's say the Brewers sign Hart to an extension and give him $12 million a year. In 2014 the Brewers would have over $60 million committed to just 5 players (Hart, Weeks, Braun, Gallardo, Ramirez). That doesn't leave them with a whole lot of wiggle room for the rest of the team.

If the Brewers didn't have so many legit corner outfield/first base guys I'd be all for signing Hart. I just think he'll get more money than people think ($13-$15 million a year for at least 3 years). With Braun manning one of the corner outfield spots and presumably Gomez and Schafer in centerfield, that leaves a whole bunch of guys for RF/1B. Hart. You have Gamel. You have Khris Davis (may involve moving Braun to RF). You have Morris. You have Caleb Gindl. If Victor Roache is healthy he may advance quickly. I just hate to invest so much money in a guy when you have so many other options and could really use that money to shore up other areas, mainly infield depth and the bullpen.

If I am trading Corey Hart I am looking for a team's 3rd-5th ranked prospect, depending on who the team is. I don't like Belt because we already have a guy who can play first and has good minor league numbers (Gamel). I want a Segura type prospect, preferably either a pitcher or third basemen. If we trade Hart in the offseason the trading team would be able to receive compensation should he leave. That should increase his value a bit. But as much I've been on board with trading Hart it is only if we receive a fairly regarded prospect or two in return.

Teams will only lose their 1st rd pick if they sign a player who declined a QO from their 2012 team. The Angels can offer him a QO, but no team, regardless of who signs him at the end of the season, will be losing a draft pick because he was not on the opening day roster. So am I misinterpreting the new CBA? If a player turns down a QO from a team but has not been on said team for the entire year, the team that signs him does not lose a pick? But if the same player turns down a QO from a team he HAS been on all year the team that signs him DOES lose a pick? In other words if the Brewers didn't trade Greinke and instead offered him a QO which he promptly turned down and then signed with the Yankees, the Yankees would lose their first round pick? But if the Angels offer him a QO and he promptly turns it down and signs with the Yankees, the Yankees would not lose their first round pick? How does that make sense? I was under the impression that it did not matter if the player who turns down the QO was on the opening day roster with that team. I was under the impression that as long as a player, any player, turns down a QO and signs with another team, the team that signs him loses a pick.

Can some explain something to me regarding qualifying offers and this new CBA. Let's look at the Zach Greinke situation. The Angels traded for him but since he will not have played for them the entire year they are not eligible for draft pick compensation for him. Here's my question. Obviously if the Angels offer him a QO he'll turn it down. So if the Angels just say screw the QO because he is not going to accept it, does the team that does sign him still have to forfeit their first round pick when they sign him? Would/Should the Angels make a QO just so the signing team has to give up their first round pick? If not, isn't this a crappy aspect of the new CBA as teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, and whoever else can sign the top free agents without being penalized at all with the loss of a draft pick because teams don't bother making the player on offer they know he won't accept?

I don't think Hart being gone in 2014 is a forgone conclusion by any means, unless I've missed something (which happens more often than not). Neither do I and that worries me a bit. Maybe they move Weeks or Ramirez but if not and they sign Hart to say a $13 million a year contract, by 2014 you're looking at $61 million tied up in 5 players (Braun, Weeks, Ramirez, Hart and Gallardo). That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for error or investments in other guys. I'd throw Hart's name out there this offseason and see if you can't maybe get a decent third base prospect for him.

I am going to be very upset if Rogers gets bumped from the rotation once Marcum comes back. The way he is pitching, he's earned a longer shot. He may be a key to success next season and he needs to get the work now. Randy Wolf should be bumped to the pen. Heck I'd even be ok with a 6 man rotation. But Rogers needs to keep starting.

The expectations for Davis on here are insane - "replacing Corey Hart's offense" and "hitting 20-30 HRs annually". Those are the offensive numbers that would make him a top 50 or top 25 prospect given how close he is the majors. Hell, those are the power potential numbers that I've seen on Wil Myers (2nd or 3rd on prospect lists overall). Not to be a jerk, but get real. You really can't envision this guy hitting 20 home runs in a season? Like it's not even possible? I guess.....I guess I'd like to know what about him, offensively, you are so hesitant about. The guy is a hitter, pure and simple. Just because I project him to hit 20 home runs certainly does not mean he has to be a top 25 or 50 prospect. That's ridiculous. But if you look at the career offensive numbers of Davis or Wil Myers they are actually very comparable: Davis: .293/.400/.513 Myers: .300/.395/.524 Myers just happens to be much younger and presumably is better defensively which can explain why he is so highly ranked and Davis is not. But given his offensive potential and his minor league numbers I guess I don't see why it is so hard to envision 20 home runs from the guy.

It's not hard to envision a scenario where Hart re-ups and moves back to RF, with some combination of Gamel / Morris at 1B, making Davis an attractive trade chip, particularly if he continues to hit. Trading Davis so you can move Hart back to RF is the kind of move that eventually comes back to bite Milwaukee. Hart's defense in RF already started taking a nose dive last season. I hate to imagine how bad it would be when he is 34-35 years old. From all I've read Davis is not a bad defender. He just has a below average arm. I think offensively he has 20-30 HR potential and can at the very least match what Corey Hart has done. So essentially you'd be paying and older, slower Hart $13 million or so more a year for a RF with a better arm. Definitely not worth it. I say either put Davis in RF and use a defensive replacement late in games or put him in LF and move Braun to RF.

Since 2000, there have been 153 1B with 250+ PA. So far Gamel ranks 138th offensively That is an unfair comparison. As I said, he didn't come up as a first basemen and has played all of 26 games as a major league first basemen. You are mostly using his stats as a part time third basemen and DH to compare with other first basemen. I wouldn't compare Taylor Green's stats to other first basemen and I don't think it's fair to compare Gamel's yet either, not until he has played a meaningful number of games at the position. And you bring up Justin Smoak's name. Smoak had 489 plate appearances last season and has 344 so far this year. That means by the end up this season he'll have probably over 900 plate appearances in two seasons. The most plate appearances Gamel had over a 2 year period was 165. If Gamel is given the same opportunity as Smoak and fails so be it. But considering how vastly different their major league opportunities have been it's like comparing night and day.

but should be right in the prime of your hitting ability It's not his fault that the Brewers had in rot in Nashville for what, 4 years? His "prime" has been pushed back for that reason. I think "prime" has as much to do with major league experience as it does age, unless of course you think Mike Fiers is in his prime right now. you are a 1B and can't play anywhere else. He can play somewhere else though. I'm sure he can play corner outfield (who can't?) and in an emergency he could probably hold down third base for a week or two. The only reason he was moved to first to begin with was because that was where the opening was. If Casey McGehee had the same year in 2010 as he did in 2011 Mat Gamel would have probably been our third basemen last season. does anyone honestly expect that he's going to come back from almost missing an entire season and suddenly be good in 2013? Nobody expects him to come into 2013 and be Albert Pujols. The idea is that he can learn how to hit major league pitching after seeing it over an extended period of time and then get progressively better. I was all on board with the theory coming into 2012 that he just hadn't been given regular playing time and that's why his hitting had been so bad... So you were all for giving him a chance this year but those 69 at bats this season where he hit .249 completely changed your mind and now you're convinced he'll never be a good player so we should just trade him for a bullpen arm? Kind of a rush to judgment isn't it? ....but then he had the starting job and was looking terrible when he was handed his sink-or-swim moment. He certainly did not look terrible. Though it was only 21 games, he struck out at a much lower rate than both Weeks and Hart do. He also had multiple hits in 6 of his first 15 games. He was in a mini slump the 6 games before he got hurt and that really hurt his overall numbers. On April 20 he was hitting .298 with a .353 OBP. By April 30 he was down to .246 and .293 and then he got hurt. So minus that little six game slide before he got hurt he was hitting very well. Certainly not terrible.

I think it's well past time to give up on the Gamel dream-that-was-never-that-much-of-a-dream. Dude can't hit MLB pitching and has never been a passable defender (at least, not outside of 1B). I would be happy if they got a usable bullpen piece for him. Talk about the epitome of selling low. Even if he hits .260 next year as a part time player he'd probably fetch more than he would now. I also don't see anyway he is kept as a bench player. Why not? I'd rather have him coming off the bench than Jeff Bianchi or Cesar Isturis.

Where could you better spend the money? Good free agents don't come cheap, and as we've seen, the Brewers are going to get second tier guys at best, and likely overpay for them. The bullpen? Depth? International free agents? I really don't think Hart is that bad at all in RF I actually thought Hart was pretty good defensively in RF.....until 2011. In 2011 I thought to myself, holy crap what happened to Corey Hart? He took a very noticeable step backward in both speed and judging flyballs. I remember a few games where his defense actually lost the game. I'd feel more comfortable with Gamel in RF than Hart. If we re-sign him it has to be as a first basemen. But when you do that, you essentially tell Hunter Morris that he has no future in Milwaukee. Just like by signing Aramis Ramirez you told Taylor Green he has no future in Milwaukee. To me, trading Corey Hart makes the most sense. We are loaded with guys who can play first base and corner outfield. You have Gamel, Davis, Aoki, Braun, Gindl, and Morris. That's 6 guys for three positions. Why pay Corey Hart $15 million a year, which essentially leaves 5 guys for one spot because obviously Braun and Hart both play every day. Starting in 2014, you then have 3 mid to high ceiling prospects in Davis, Gindl, Morris (plus Aoki if you choose to extend him AND Mat Gamel) competing for one spot. And you have $15 million less to spend on other areas of need. All this to give a 32 year old career .276 hitter $13-$15 million a year? I think given time and ample opportunity all three of Morris, Davis and Gamel can hit .275 with 20 HRs. And at 1/20th the cost.

Every year, from here on out has to be "The Year" and with Braun and the other veteran position players in our lineup, it can be. I could not disagree more. You don't make moves because fans want you to. You make moves to help build a successful franchise year in year out. 2012 was built as a another "the year" and look how it turned out. No offense to people like your friend, the "when does football start" crowd, but I find them very obnoxious. They obviously aren't true Brewers fans and they apparently have no idea how baseball works. It's not like football. You can "win now" a lot quicker in football than you can in baseball. And the economics are night and day. The only way a franchise like Milwaukee can compete year in year out in not to sign big time free agents and trade all of your prospects for established players, but to build from within and make wise financial decisions. The Brewers have a golden opportunity right now to obtain those young stars and start a run of successful years. They have a ton of pitching coming up, have a few stars (Braun, Lucroy) and some solid role players on their way (Kh Davis, Gennett, Schafer). I hate to say this but Corey Hart is not the difference between playoffs and no playoffs next season. So why not finally maximize someone's value and trade him while you can? By 2014, you'll still have Braun, Weeks, Lucroy and Ramirez. Davis will probably be ready. As will Schafer and Segura. Gennett will be close. Morris will be close. Gindl will be close, if not ready. Pitching wise, choose between Peralta, Thornburg, Jungmann, Burgos, Nelson, Hellweg, Pena, Fiers, Rogers, and Gallardo. Add whoever you can get for Hart (ideally a third basemen or another pitcher) and whoever you draft next season with your top 10 pick, plus a key free agent signing or two and this is the making of a very successful franchise. You don't have to overspend or trade away the farm just so the "when does football start" crowd pays attention. Win a few years in a row and you'll get their attention.

I think if the Brewers can get one or two of those elite prospects the system will look a lot better. They have done a really good job building up depth over the past few years but they still seem to prefer to lower ceiling, higher floor guys. It may have been a financial decision but picking Mitch Haniger over Joey Gallo is exactly what I am talking about. They look like they'll have a top 10 pick in next season's draft so hopefully they get that all star caliber position player or #1 caliber pitcher in the draft. Overall though if Jed Bradley can figure things out and Taylor Jungmann, Hiram Burgos, Jimmy Nelson, and Drew Gagnon can continue to progress, and if Victor Roache can come back healthy and hit for power I think Milwaukee's system continues to trend upward next season.

To be certain you could match that, you're looking at a Brett Lawrie type trade candidate. Among the top 10ish prospects out there, you'd probably have to get a Olt/Castellanos/Rendon type haul for your trade to really be certain you can get that type of production and be truly confident the prospect will pan out to what you need You don't need to acquire a third basemen for Ramirez. It'd be nice, but not necessary. You can never have too much pitching so I'd be happy to take a pitcher back. And even with Segura we still have a pretty gaping hole at shortstop. In summary: Don't underestimate what you have in Hart, and moreso, Aramis. That is a STRENGTH right now and I'd hate to turn it into a weakness. I understand, but let's not overestimate them either. And by that, let's think very carefully before handing Hart a 3-4 year deal for $60 million. Finally, and I only mention this because it's the second time in the last week or so it's happened, but please be careful when you are quoting someone that you actually quote the right person. That quote you attached my name to was actually from clancyfile, not me.

There's not really any team that's as consistently fully "homegrown" as what it sounds like you'd be hoping for from the Brewers. The '11 was mostly homegrown in the field & largely not on the mound. Without those major moves to improve the rotation, we weren't going to sniff anything close to playoff contention. I can't fault Melvin at all for making the moves he did. I think there are a couple. Atlanta and TB come to mind. I don't necessarily consider "home grown" to be entirely guys you draft or sign, but also prospect you trade for. Oakland seems to fit that mold a bit as well, though they haven't been nearly as consistent. And actually Washington looks like they may fit that mold soon too, though admittedly they lucked out and got the chance to draft two of the highest regarded draft prospects in history. And obviously no team is fully "home grown". Every team has a FA contributor or two. And don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with what Melvin did when he traded for Greinke and Marcum. That was a very wise move as it was apparent we were an all offense no pitching team. But we aren't in the same boat anymore. We finally have pitching, and a lot of it, coming up. I think 2013 is too soon to rely on them, but by 2014 we are probably going to be fielding teams with 5 of our own pitchers for quite a while. That's why I think 2014 is really the year you try to set up your franchise to be one of those consistent winners. But if you have zero financial flexibility to fix the issues that arise (injuries, under-performers, lack of depth, etc) because all of your money is tied up in 6 players then you're just asking for a 2012 all over again.

To me the 2011 would have been much more special had we been able to do it with our home grown players. Sure we had Weeks, Braun, Fielder, Hart, etc, but the you need to look only at 2010 and 2009 to see that without Greinke and Marcum we are not a playoff team. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed with the result. But I'm a little frustrated that we can't build a team like that every year. What the "chicken littles" like myself would like to see is a World Series contender like the 2011 team that can survive more than a year or two before falling back to a sub .500 team. You don't do that by trading 5 of your best prospects for two seasons of veteran pitchers every year (eventually you run out of prospects like they did this past offseason). And you don't do that by using up 2/3 of your payroll on 6 guys, some of who are already (or will be when their new contract is signed) in their mid 30s. Let's face it, as much as we like Corey Hart the guy is a career .276 hitter with a career .333 OBP. He can't steal bases any more and his defense in RF took a major nose dive over the past two years. If he stays at first that's not an issue I guess but he'll be 32 years old if/when we sign him to a new contract. Is this the kind of player Milwaukee should be investing $15 million a year in? We could almost build an entire bullpen with that and still have Mat Gamel, Hunter Morris, Khris Davis, or whoever playing first base. Or ARam playing first and Taylor Green playing third base. I just don't see how re-signing him when his contract is up is a good idea. And because he only has one year left, I don't see how holding on to him now is a good idea. At least we can offer him a QO and hopefully get a pick for him when he leaves, but I'd be willing to guess trading him would bring back a much better player.

Taylor Green has a .739 OPS this year in AAA and .645 in MLB. So I disagree with the suggestion that his not being given a starting role (or at least major role) with the 2012 Brewers was a misstep by Doug Melvin Even calling Green's playing time sporadic this year would a stretch. I don't see how you can fairly use his major league stats against him this year given how few at bats he got. It's the same debate we've had with Mat Gamel. He has little if anything to prove in the minors but he's never been given an extended period of at bats in Milwaukee. That being said, I don't think he'll ever have a successful career in Milwaukee. His two primary positions are both filled for the next two seasons and I doubt Melvin moves either Ramirez or Weeks. I think the best we can hope for him is a utility player. Too bad. You'd think a two time organizational player of the year could do better.

Mo's Irish Pub and the Rock Bottom Brewery are both about half a block away.

I seriously don't understand why an argument for a youth movement is not taking into consideration that quite a few of those youth movement pieces aren't even proving their worth against lesser competition. Last season Taylor Green hit .336 with 22 home runs. Logan Schafer hit .302 with a .368 OBP and plus defense. How were they rewarded? Schafer was shipped back to the minors. Green, whom we had a golden opportunity to give playing time to, was instead used as the 25th man on the roster and saw time only when Gamel got hurt (and even then it was only a few days a week). And not to mention he was told to play a position he never played before. I think it's unfair to suggest they haven't performed well enough to be given a legitimate shot on the major league roster. In my opinion, neither has anything left to prove in the minors. I don't see how platooning Schafer next season instead of Morgan is really going to be that big of a dropoff.