paul253

Ohh I'm certain Melvin and Mark A have a plan, but I don't think winning as many games as possible each season is much of a long-term plan. If the goal is to win as many games this season, why not just trade Jungmann and Peralta for some quality bullpen arms? That would have won us some more games. Then next season when we lose Greinke we can trade Bradley and Thornburg for a quality starting pitcher. That would probably help us win some more games next season. Then we can overspend to re-sign Corey Hart after that. That may help us win 3 or 4 extra games in 2014. But eventually you run out of pieces to trade and money to sign free agents. This year shows what happens when that occurs. You lose a player to injury and all of a sudden Cesar Izturis is your starting shortstop. Then another player gets hurt and Travis Ishikawa is your starting first basemen. Then your season is shot. I know that was meant as sarcasm but it reminds me of that poster who was complaining that we trade Greinke because we won't win as many games this season. Obviously you missed my point. When you delicately piece together a team with no room for error, like they did this year, things can go south awfully quickly. They had zero depth outside of Aoki. And outside of Estrada there were no depth in the rotation. We're lucky Fiers turned out as well as he did because the season could be much worse then it is. So instead of delicately piecing together teams one year at a time how about strengthening the teams from within? Taylor Green isn't going to get any better sitting on the bench. Logan Schafer isn't going to get any better in Nashville. At some point you have to invest in your own guys. And at some point you need to move on from the older expensive players and see what you have in the younger, cheaper ones. As good as the Brewers have been recently, they've only made the playoffs twice in five seasons. And honestly in those other three seasons, including this one, they haven't even been close. While that's certainly better than we're used to it's not exactly the sustained long term success I'd like to see. I can't exactly complain all that much about this year's team because I actually thought they'd be a lot better than this. But if anything it shows what can happen when everything doesn't go exactly as planned.

This oft-repeated suggestion by many that Melvin & Co. don't have a plan is absurd. Folks may disagree with the FO's choice of approach, but that's entirely different than lacking a plan. What is his long term plan then? Every year he pieces together a roster that he thinks can compete and every year it seems to be at the expense of one or two young players. We were supposed to compete this season because all we did was replace Fielder and Yuni with Aramis and Gamel. But it's been an absolute disaster. Meanwhile, Taylor Green still hasn't really gotten a chance. Neither has Logan Schafer. So I guess when I say "make a plan" I really mean "make a plan that includes more than one year at a time". And I still think people are overestimating how close we are to competing next season. The rotation probably won't be as good. Greinke is gone and will probably be replaced by either Peralta or Rogers. Marcum may be back but as of now they've shown no interest in re-signing him. He'll also have to be replaced. As will Wolf. So what are they going to do? Sign another average starting pitcher to a multi-year $20 million contract? That goes back to my question whether they have a long term plan or just continue to throw together a team they think can make the playoffs. And then there is the bullpen. The ENTIRE bullpen needs to be revamped. That's a lot easier said than done. And the lineup is far from set. We can't just plug Segura, someone who's had all of 3 at bat above AA, into SS and assume he'll be a .280 hitter. We also have to do something about the depth. Cesar Isturez as your utility man isn't going to cut it. Just to put a respectable team out there you're going to have to a) spend a ton of money on the bullpen and bench and b) hope that your extremely young rotation holds up all season long and 3) hope you don't have the same injury plagued year as you did this year. I still just think 2013 is the perfect year to start incorporating your young guys into the lineup. Schafer can play the role of Morgan. Rogers Peralta and Thornburg can spend all year or most of the year in the rotation gaining experience. Khris Davis can get some at bats, maybe even spend some time at first base if Gamel isn't cutting it? Taylor Green can get some at bats. It just makes too much sense to me. And if that is the plan, if also makes sense to move Corey Hart. He may love Milwaukee but if he gets to free agency teams are going to throw a TON of money at him. And he knows that, so why would he settle for $10 million a year again? By 2014, they'll have close to $50 million tied up 4 players (Weeks, Gallardo, Braun, Ramirez). Even if Hart signs for measly $13 million that's almost 2/3 of your payroll tied up in 5 players. I think we need to move on. And since we move on, why not trade him and get a high ceiling prospect for him?

Instead of trading any more players (barring a huge overpay by somebody) they need to sign an above-average 1B/RF, SP, and maybe some cheaper bullpen pieces. Together that would be a very good 2013 team. IMO, NL Central favorites. Easier said than done. Any above average SP is going to cost big $$$. And even then, we'll still have 3 rotation spots to fill. I like Fiers but he'll be very hard pressed to repeat this year's performance. The final two spots will probably be filled by Estrada, who is a borderline starter, and a rookie (either Rogers or Peralta). Milwaukee needs to make a plan. An actual plan. Not a "let's try to piece together a contender" strategy like they did this year. Let 2013 be the year our young pitching prospects (Peralta, Rogers, maybe Thornburg) and positional prospects (Schafer, maybe Gindl, Green and Davis) get some experience and we see what they can do. Let it be the year we shed some salary and get our payroll back in whack. Then in 2014 the rotation should be much less of a question mark then it is now and we should have some money available for positions of need (bullpen and depth). I just think we are further away from contending than people think. Our entire bullpen needs to be revamped. Even Axford is now a huge question mark. Then 2013 rotation is anybody's guess. As of right now I think the only two guarantees are Gallardo and Fiers. We aren't 2001 bad but we need to stop overspending on veteran free agents and see what our own cheap guys can do. 2013 seems like the ideal year to do that considering how close so many of them (Rogers, Thornburg, Peralta, Burgos, Schafer, Gennett, Davis, Morris, Gindl) are. And we could hopefully finally see what we have in Green and Gamel.

It's amazing to me how many people just want to just ship Hart out. The guy came up through the system. He has repeatdly stated how much he loves Milwaukee and the Brewers and would like to finish his career here. He puts up good numbers consistently and is now almost a gold glove caliber player at a position of need for us. So what? It's a business. I appreciate the fact that he came up with us as much as the next guy but the fact is he'll be 32 when his new contract starts. He'll probably be looking for one more big contract and it'll probably end up being somewhere in the 4 year $70 million range. This year is a perfect example of what happens when Milwaukee puts too much money into too few players. The depth is embarrassing and one or two serious injuries leaves you with black holes at multiple positions. And while first base may be a position of need right now, the fact is 1) Gamel will be back next season 2) First base is probably the easiest position outside of maybe left field to field and 3) Trading Hart and/or Ramirez could easily bring back a replacement. Morris will be in AAA. Khris Davis will be in AAA. Taylor Green played some first this year. There are plenty of options. I've said before that guys like Hart and Weeks are exactly the types of guys we need to move away from. We had them for the primes of their careers and now that they are starting to get older we should seriously consider moving them while they still have value. I don't see why we should spend $15-$17 million a year on a 32 year old first basemen and hold onto him until his mid-late 30s. I am tired of watching guys being traded away for garbage because we held onto them too long and they have no more value. If we aren't going to contend in 2013, which we may not considering how young the rotation is going to be, we should move Hart and bring back more young, cheap, controllable talent.

I'd be all for trading Hart Ramirez and Weeks if you can get anything for them. I think Hart has a decent amount of value and you could probably get a decent outfielder or third basemen in return. It'd be nice to get out from under Ramirez and Weeks contracts and use that money to rebuild the bullpen. I'd even trade Gallardo if you can get a package like the A's got for Gonzalez. I think 2013 will be a transition year for the team. Peralta, Rogers, and Thornburg should get a decent number of starts and experience while Hellweg, Pena, Jungmann, Bradley, Burgos, Nelson and Gagnon all continue to make their way through the upper levels of the system. I wouldn't expect too much out of them but I think they have a chance to anchor the rotation for a long time.....starting in 2014. Lineup wise I'm excited to see what Logan Schafer and Khris Davis can do in the outfield. And I'm interested to see if Gennett and Morris can keep up their success in Nashville. I'm also excited about Segura obviously. Overall, like I said I think 2013 will be a year of transition. I don't expect much in terms of winning and because of that I'd like to see them move some of the expensive vets. Ideally Ramirez would be the first to go and if you can get decent value for Weeks and Hart I'd move them too.

I wonder how many players will be offered this deal. Free agents to be who were traded, like Greinke, don't receive draft pick compensation because they haven't been with the team all year so offering them a QO doesn't gain them anything. This should seriously reduce the number of picks between the first and second rounds. So gone are the days of getting a comp pick for the Brian Shouses of the world? Okay. And hopefully gone are the days when "Round 2" starts with a pick in the 60s.

Burgos has better numbers at AA than Hellweg/Pena, yet nobody rates him higher- or in some cases not at all. Also believe Gennett over Morris is puzzling. If Burgos and Morris can continue their success next season I'd be more willing to jump on the bandwagon. Morris was just average his first few years in the system (.251/.306/.436 in 2010 and .271/.299/.461 in 2011). I hope this is his breakout season but I'm hesitant to rank someone so highly based on one year. Same with Burgos. Outside of a brief stretch in Helena in 2010 he hasn't been very good. Guys like Gennett and Khris Davis have been successful year in and year out so I tend to think more highly of them.

Jim Callis of BA recently gave us his new Brewers top 10. And just as a side note, he still considers the system as a whole to be in the lower third of the league. I imagine this is because of the lack of elite prospects. They should be able to get at least one in next June's draft as they should have a pick somewhere in the 9-13 range. Melvin needs to be really aggressive with that pick. Anyway, here it is: Jean Segura, ss Should provide plus offense, average defense for shortstop. Tyler Thornburg, rhp Big league struggles aside, has upside as potential No. 3 starter. Wily Peralta, rhp Hasn't been able to harness his explosive stuff this summer. Jimmy Nelson, rhp Has promising sinker/slider combo but hit speed bump in Double-A. Ariel Pena, rhp Better chance to start than Hellweg because he has superior command. Johnny Hellweg, rhp Though he's huge and throws hard, still has a lot to learn on the mound. Scooter Gennett, 2b Solid bat with some gap power, average speed and defense, good instincts. Taylor Jungmann, rhp The 12th overall pick in 2011 has shown average stuff and command in pro debut. Jed Bradley, lhp Taken three choices after Jungmann, has battled mechanics and struggled even worse. Clint Coulter, c The No. 28 overall selection in June has power, needs work behind the plate.

In the off season, everyone sits at the table. You may find a big market team who just missed the playoffs who is thin at third base perceiving themselves as missing a 'big bat'. A team like this may give some value for Ramirez. Right now, you have a handful of teams looking for that quick fix, and they are picking up multiple pieces while flipping middling prospects. I have never really like this argument because I don't think it's true. First of all, I don't think everyone is in play in the offseason like that thinking suggests. For instance, I'm pretty sure the Cubs and the Astros wouldn't be in play during the offseason. I doubt the Royals or the Rays would be either. The argument is that only certain teams are interested in him during the season because they are still in playoff contention but the fact is only certain is will be interested in him during the offseason as well. Another reason I don't like it is because of this. Let's say a team wants a third basemen. In the offseason they may look to the Brewers to acquire Ramirez but if they don't like what Milwaukee is asking for there is another option. Free agency. There is no free agency (at least nobody worth while) during the season. If a team wants an upgrade it HAS to be via trade. Finally, there may be teams in play during the season that are not in play during the offseason. Teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore, for instance. Now I don't know if they would want him or not, but they are both performing much better than expected and may be more willing or more desperate to deal during the season than they would be in the offseason when they feel as though their own option is good enough. Obviously you are not going to get major league talent during the season because no team would give up a contributor during the playoff run, but if Milwaukee is trading ARam they are basically saying we don't think we can compete in 2013 and a prospect will be a good enough return. If we are looking to move Ramirez I'm not sure you are going to get significantly more during the offseason than you will now.

I'd spend the big bucks on the bullpen and then sign an innings eater type to a one year deal. If Marcum is out for most of the rest of the year maybe bring him back on a one year deal for $6-$7 million. But I think Gallado and Fiers are locks and Estrada is close. That leaves two spots for 4 people: Thornburg, Peralta, Rogers, and Narveson. Bullpen wise I'd like to see at least two high profile signings. I like Mike Adams. Maybe Jonathan Broxton. And then also a lefty.

Buckel and Grimm seem like solid players but quite honestly I'm glad Melvin didn't bite. If you refuse to offer even one of your three best prospects you probably shouldn't be bidding for the best available pitcher on the trade market. That said, had the third player been Rougned Odor I probably would have preferred the Rangers deal. But a no-hit 153lb SS doesn't really appeal much to me. Segura is a great pickup but to me Hellweg is the key here. If he can reach his potential as a #2 we'll really be looking good. BA listed Hellweg as having both the best fastball and the best curveball in the Angel's organization. The key for him seems to be the same that it is for Mark Rogers and Wily Peralta. If they can limit the walks, look out.

Yes it is....RRR said they want to get him starting again.....said he will be back later in the year. Haven't they screwed with him enough this year? Let the guy start and keep him starting. I don't even want him called up later in the year unless he is going to start. And personally I'd rather see Rogers continue to start and if we need another starter I'd rather see Peralta called up. I hate this idea that our top prospects have to be thrown into the bullpen "to get their feet wet". The team is going nowhere this year. If we are that desperate for them to get experience why not have them take Wolf's spot in the rotation for a game or two? I like Thornburg a lot and I have been very outspoken about moving him up faster than they have been. That being said, I'd rather let him pitch in AAA the rest of the year and give him a shot to make the rotation out of spring training. There seem to be other guys ahead of him (Rogers and Peralta most notably) and having him pitch in Nashville the rest of the season isn't the end of the world. But to keep switching him from the rotation to the bullpen seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

We finally have a good catcher after years of crap and people want to move him? You mean you consider Gregg Zaun, Jason Kendal, Mike Rivera, Wil Nieves, Carlos Corporan, Vinny Rottino, Johnny Estrada, Damian Miller, Chad Moeller, Gary Bennett, Eddie Perez, Keith Osik, Robert Machado, Paul Bako, Jorge Fabregas and Raul Casanova crap?

Hopefully this start is the first of many. It's too bad this pathetic excuse for a bullpen took his win away.

Anyone think KRod is regretting passing up a multi-year deal to accept arbitration? He may have gotten paid this year but I can't imagine teams are going to be all that excited to sign him after this season.

It's about winning games. Period. I mean seriously, what difference does it make if you go 80-82 or 76-86? Are you really willing to pass on upgrading your farm system, and with it your future, so you can finish 11 games out of first place as opposed to 15 games? Everyone wants to win, but at some point it becomes apparent that this team aint making the playoffs. So rather than forge ahead why not utilize your trade assets to improve the future and hopefully win more later? I really hope that in two or three years when Pena, Hellweg and Segura are all contributors on this team that I remember to send you a message reminding you that you didn't even want these guys because you preferred to have Zack Greinke start 10 more games and then leave (and yes I know you want to re-sign him but if it isn't clear as day to you that he wasn't going to re-sign then there's no point in even debating with you).

Considering Rogers has gotten hurt in just about every one of his professional seasons, I don't see how the "china doll" comment is so ridiculous. Whether the injuries are his fault or not is irrelevant, Mark gets hurt a lot. The main thing is that his shoulder and elbow have been fine for three years now. I understand the skepticism but his injury in 2011 was more of a fluke than anything. I mean, who gets carpal tunnel in both wrists? I am not worried as much about him hurting his shoulder again as I am him not being able to throw enough strikes. It seems like his two huge problems this year have been walks and home runs. But either way, the Brewers don't really have anything to lose with this. It's not like they are gunning for a wild card. If he can come up and have two or three successful starts in place of Marcum it'll be a huge plus for the organization.

Who are all the people "proclaiming him major league ready," but more than that, if you're dominant in AA, how far away are you from being major league ready? There was talk by another poster of bringing him up to the majors when he was still in BC. But more specifically, it seems like YOU are proclaiming him major league ready. but I also don't see why it'd be so outlandish to talk about him in terms of our future rotation if he continues to dominate? Of course it's not outlandish, but there's pretty significant difference between "now" and "if he continues to dominate". I'm not saying he isn't a good prospect or he isn't having a good season, I'm just tempering my expectations on him until he has more than one season of success. Short of a 6 game stretch in Helena in 2010 he's been a very average pitcher up until now.

I can't imagine Melvin is going to make roster moves based on what he thinks Greinke would feel about it. Unless he is 100% Greinke will resign with us you can't base decisions on that. Hart has value. Not only will he help a team this year but next year as well. And the team that gets him could theoretically get a draft pick if he leaves. And his salary isn't that bad. I think a team like Pittsburgh, maybe SF, would make sense. Atlanta may still be interested. But you don't just give him away. From Pitt I'd need Marte plus and from Atlanta I'd want Teheran and Pastornicky. I just hope Melvin has a plan. I do give him credit for the Greinke deal but again, unless Greinke resigns I don't see this team contending next season. I'd still like to see him make a few more trades to help get the payroll back in order and to set up a yearly run beginning in 2014. That means Ramirez and/or Hart.

After the recent draft and obviously trade of Greinke, what does the Brewers new top 10 prospects list look like? I have to imagine Segura is the new top positional player but is he the top overall? I'd rank it something like this: 1) Thornburg 2) Segura 3) Peralta 4) Hellweg 5) Gennett 6) Jungmann 7) Bradley 8) Schafer 9) Coulter 10) Pena Having left out guys like Roache, Nelson, Burgos, McFarland, Khris Davis, Morris and Tyrone Taylor this system certainly looks a lot better now than it did a year ago. Still no real elite prospects but certainly much deeper. Hopefully in next years draft they'll have a top ten pick and can get that elite prospect.

The Brewers have lost enough as a franchise the last 20 years, after a few years of success, now we have to go back to losing for at least a couple of years again?? And they were losing again this year. And they were going to continue losing with or without Greinke. I think you are the only person who doesn't understand the need to trade Greinke. He was offered a contract and didn't bite. Hopefully the Brewers make another run at him once the season ends but you know as well as the rest of us do that Milwaukee can't afford a $150 million contract. They did exactly what they need to do to remain relevant as a franchise.

Now get Segura up to the bigs, and end the embarassment at SS. Segura is going to Huntsville per Melvin on the broadcast. I think it's a good decision. No reason to rush the kid, it's not like he's going to make any sort of difference at the big leagues this year.

Looks like he'll be to start Sunday. Good for him. Hopefully he keeps the walks and home runs down and has a good game.

With the return for Greinke it doesn't look like any of the guys are going to help us out much next season. Don't get me wrong, I love getting Segura back but counting on him to not only be the everyday SS next season but to put up good numbers right away may be wishful thinking. So my question is, since next year may be a bit of a down year anyway wouldn't it make sense to trade Hart now? His value is much higher than it will be at this time next season and he should be able to bring back at least one high ceiling prospect, probably two. Cleveland has already reportedly inquired about him. I have to imagine Pittsburgh would be interested. Texas is said to be looking for an outfielder. I floated the idea in another thread about maybe Hart to Pitt for Marte and Heredia. Wouldn't that trade make even more sense now? Short of actually bringing Greinke back as a FA I just don't see this team competing next season. So why not take another step towards improving the future of the team now as opposed to hanging to guys who may not even be here in 2014? Trading Hart just makes too much sense to me.

I'm really surprised Melvin took in AA pitchers. Not disappointed, just surprised. I'm glad they got Segura back.