BrewerFan

Can we PLEEASE stop saying this. Why not trade Made and Pena using this logic? We have SS locked up? 2nd-Luis Lara's 8 year 31M deal does NOT mean that if we develop another Jackson Chourio, but a slightly bigger version and left handed... and already showing massive power in Low A at 18,,,, it doesn't matter if we trade him way in a MASSIVE overpay. And no, the Brewers are NOT "damned if they do, damned if they don't." They're damned... if they do some STOOPID ****. You can trade away good prospects. You PROBABLY should try and trade them when their value is HIGHER(like Ragsdale, so fine with that one)... and not the guys who have freakish ability and are already top 100 prospects at 18. Who do have that fits that description? 1-Chourio 2-Made 3-Pena 4-Frias...er... that's right, the Cards have him... because they took a salary dump in Dustin May this off-season and turned it into two guys with good upside, one guy with MASSIVE upside. This is not a reasonable trade, this is a moronic trade. But hey, lets trade Braylon Payne and Josh Adamczewski next year for rentals because "2 of the 3 OF positions are already locked into long term deals with Chourio and Lara. You guys also do realize we have BACKUPS in the OF and... ya know, FUTURE trades to consider, right?

You don't trade guys like Frias unless they're being valued as BLUE chip prospects. You have enough other guys with a lot of upside... there's absolutely ZERO reason to do this trade. Jordan Walker and O'Brien should be coming back for this joke of a deal.

This trade seems like something the Padres ACTUALLY DID.... except THEY traded James Shields and they got back the young 18-year-old dynamic prospect. I like May. He could play a big role. But... you could have just gotten Soriano if you were going to do this.

No, Baseball America is not in the habit of ranking an 18-year-old in the top 100 because he's the "shiny new toy." Braylon Payne would have been a top 100 prospect if they were looking for the "shiny new toy." They ranked him in the top 100, which is pretty rare for them for an 18-year-old kid... because he's huge tools. And if he has a ways to go to be considered a prospect, why'd the Cards even want him? Why trade for a couple of non-prospects? Also, Frias is hitting .367/.438/.582 in his last 10 games, so... he seems just fine to me. Of course, just keeping your head about water at his age is pretty impressive, but he's done more than that. This is antithetical to what the Brewers do... and I REALLY hope this doesn't come back to bite them in the ass the way the James Shield trade bit the White Sox....

This is the worst trade I've seen the Brewers make since... I mean, I HONESTLY cannot remember. I hated Mitch Hanniger for Parra, but my GOD does that look pale in comparison(I also like Logan Schafer more, but nothing like this).

That does nothing for me though. There's a LOT of prospect the Brewers won't be able to make use of... but you don't give up THIS type of prospect capital for THESE players...

Yeah, he is. He's our 3rd best starting pitcher now. But this upgrade is NOT Frias, Ragsdale type good. What the hell are we doing! The ONE..."rule" I have with these trades, don't EVER give up teenagers who've shown some upside. Frias may end up a bust... OR he may end up Fernando Tatis Jr. I'd honestly rather we gave up Adamczewski. This is jsut sooo much. It feels like it HAS to be one or the other.

Uh... WHAT?!? .... no. That's... absolutely insane. Frias was a top 100 prospect(per BA) and Ragsdale was a 70 speed guy who was hitting .300/.430 with a 1.100+ OPS AND he had 12 HRs and 31 SBs is in AA. That's... a JOKE. This cannot be the whole deal. This is absolutely insane.

WHAT!!!! Oh NO!!!! I'll ONLY be happy with getting a guy with a 3.14 FIP and a very good SU man if the Brewers gave up a TON to get him! Hell, forget Knoth, give them Pena, Payne, Fischer... and then a PTBNL in case they want one of the players we drafted. Hell, throw in BOTH Ebels! That'll mean it's a better trade! No offense, but I don't get how people complain we haven't made a move(before the deadline ends) and then we add a REALLY good starting pitcher... one who's had health issues and is now back throwing upper 90s and has elite stuff. He's a great fit and his BIGGEST addition may be pushing Sproat to the long role out of the pen. Sproat has great stuff, but he's not refined enough yet to be a starter. But this is a good reliever, a igh leverage reliever and a good starter.... And you absolutely seem like a troll.

Crow I would be fine with. Knoth... I would not. Knoth and Letson(and maybe Dubanawicz) are 3 arms I don't want to trade among those who have not premiered.

LOL... ok, I really like it and BEFORE I saw this, I was hoping they'd end up with a Clay Holmes, Dustin May and then I said O'Brien type return... as LONG as they're not asking for like Adamczeweski, but you said Gausman had stunk it up! But you like May? Ya know... doesn't matter! We got a new starter who had... REALLY good stuff and I THINK he can get back to that ~50% GB rate with that nasty sinker and we got another good BP arm to take the stress of Ashby, so I'm happy!

Ask me after the deadline. The Jays basically flipped Gausman for Soriano... But we need a starter, Gausman has a good Fastball and his 3.51 FIP doesn't really seem like he stunk up the joint. At this point... I'd be very happy with Clay Holmes, Dustin May and an arm like Riley O'Brien. AGAIN though, what are teams going to ask for? Do they expect Adamczewski for one of these guys? I'd hate teo see him in LF just raking.

This is the first "spare parts" deal I've seen... though I may be missing something. I would love to see Clay Holmes. He seems like a REALLY good fit. Heavy GB pitcher, that's always good in Milwaukee. He's been hurt, but not his arm, a broken leg from a comebacker and he was throwing the ball well. All those things could help. I'd still want a reliever and a good one, but... this one is kinda baffling. But again, our #13 and #23 prospects are Ragsdale, .292/.429/698 and a 1.127 OPS with 12 HRs and 31 SBs with 70 speed and our #23 is Frank Cairone who is a unique case, but one above, Coleman Crow, a pitcher we know can throw at the MLB level and Jayden Dubanewicz is #24(and I'm not tossing him into a trade given what we've seen in 2 years from him). Do you not understand what he was attempting to articulate to you? Skubal was the player everyone wanted. HE was the valuable piece. Teams weren't going to go and trade for another starter until they knew if they were getting him... which is why @LouisElysaid "nothing was going to happen until Skubal was traded. And I'd almost guarantee the reason it takes him so long is... just because it doesn't. We ROUTINELY make trades BEFORE everyone else. Adames, Priester, Vaughn...

I loved Soriano, but maybe. That kid is so talented and it's so easy to picture him just sliding in for Turang in a couple years(maybe after playing utility for a year) and handling 2B at very high level. I have seen the Pena and Made were just off limits. I said in another thread(which I articulated poorly) that I think the Brewers system is almost going to hurt them. They have so much depth teams are going to want the top guys or the 2nd guy, another top ~20 guy and then a 30-40 guy. Thing is, most guys in our 15-30 range are top 10-12 in every other system. *I've also seen people suggest that Frias could be a "throw in." To some extent, we've become a victim of our own success with our IFAs.

I don't think that graph tells you much of anything to be honest. If you go off the last 7 starts, he was throwing well and his velo was fine. He was throwing his sinker more. He was throwing the 4 seamer 99 last start and he was throwing his sinker just under 99 at 98.9 and his ERA had been trending back in the right direction. I would guess given his profile, the sinker that is good, a splitter, the "splinker" that's been better this year and getting more movement on, very good slider and a knuckle curve all above average to REALLY good pitches, I'm guessing they just simply didn't want to give up Pena for him and the Jays were willing to offer a top 50 Shortstop prospect who is in AA. Or the Angels may have preferred Nimmala... and then Mitchell is like a Jayden Dubanewicz/Bishop Letson.... in that he was a highly touted HS arm who they went and gave 3rd rd money to last And then a 19-year-old arm who kinda sound like a Freddy Peralta type arm(a lottery ticket). Obviously I could be wrong, but there aren't many pitchers in my opinion who fit exactly what the Brewers are looking for better than Soriano. Strikeouts, Groundballs and he's got some warts that they could fit and help him take another step. I guess not I'm looking at Clay Holmes. He seems like a nice alternative and a high leverage reliever.

It doesn't sound like you and @adambr2are really saying anything that much differently. He's saying he'd trade him for a premier, elite... maybe historic closer(and I do think a reliever is a big need for this team) but not for a lower level player. That's not unreasonable. I've seen people(not on here, the... brilliant minds on X who wanted the Brewers to trade for and then "just sign Skubal to a 2 year extension,") who would trade Made for Skubal. And again, the expectations have gotten SO ridiculous, so out of hand with these young guys, part of it they're doing to themselves.

What makes you think WE passed on him? Not giving up Pena? The Jays gave up a VERY talented and hyper athletic young SS. We'd have had to give up Pena to match that. And his FB velo stabilized in July and he's been better as of late than Detmers. So if you think this is why we passed on Soriano(on top of all the other reasons he's a better fit) I'd imagine we'd "pass" on Detmers as well.

Ok. Is that factoring in the value? So basically if you get Mason Miller and Luis Pena is the top piece, you could live with that, but if you get back... just say Zeferjahn, a guy I want and they give up a guy like Fischer who is hitting 30 HRs, getting on base at a 400 clip, that's upset you? Or are you just saying player for player? Because I understand the later, I just don't agree(but feel the same way about Payne) but I totally get the prior. Svuem posted something about Minor Leaguers who struck out at the rate he has and... met a couple criteria and it's made me nervous with Fischer. ON Pena, not to go off on a tangent, but the Brewers FO saying Made and Pena are off-limits and Pena's 60 grade hit, hit 70 grade speed and then his ability at SS, which isn't great, but it's good(suggesting he could be a .300 hitter who walks and steals a lot of bags at 2B)... that's pushing the value of Pena up. But I agree, he's lost some value. How much of that is just us being insanely spoiled though? A 19-year-old isn't crushing it in HiA and dealt with some issue. That's pretty minor(but again, that part I totally get).

What would you have offered? Just hypothetically, lets say they wanted that athletic SS AND lets say they'd have included Zeferjahn. Would you have started with Pena? I feel like Made, Pena(and Payne) are non-starters for me, but, curious what others think.

The only prospect we could have offered that was better was Pena(and Braylon Payne, but that's my opinion and not yet bared out by the industries prospect rankings). Maybe Jett Williams, but Nimalla is a different type of athlete. Well that pisses me off. This isn't information you could have provided like TEN MINUTES AGO ADAM!!! Just let me build my whole argument for Soriano and then RIIIIIGHT as I hit send make sure you slllide in there and say, 'Soriano is traded.' 😁 Doesn't matter, Reid Detmers is a better pitcher (I really hope he ends up being better... and a Brewer... with Zeferjahn).

But he's not. He isn't this year, and he hasn't been over the course of his career. https://www.sports-reference.com/stathead/baseball/versus-finder.fcgi?player_id2=sorian003jos&player_id1=detmer000rei&request=1&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=detmere01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=br The bigger question to me isn't just who's been better. It's which pitcher is more likely to improve in Milwaukee. Soriano is a power right-hander with a 96-99 mph sinker, an upper-90s four-seamer, a knuckle curve, slider and splitter. The four-seamer is easily his weakest pitch, and he throws it too often. That also happens to be exactly the kind of thing the Brewers have shown they'll address. They had Aaron Ashby all but scrap his four-seamer in favor of his sinker. I could easily see them doing something similar with Soriano. As for the idea that his stuff isn't good or is trending down, I don't see the evidence. His velocity has actually ticked up over his last seven starts. His secondary pitches are absolutely filthy. The knuckle curve has held hitters to a .190 average (.200 xBA) with a .243 wOBA (.257 xwOBA), while generating a 46.1% whiff rate, a 43.0% strikeout rate, a +7 Run Value and 1.4 Run Value per 100 pitches. His splitter has been just as dominant: a .189 average allowed (.220 xBA), a microscopic .212 wOBA (.248 xwOBA), a 39.0% whiff rate and a 30.0% strikeout rate. It also produces exactly the kind of contact you want with a 53% ground-ball rate, compared to just a 22% fly-ball rate. Now take that pitcher, move him from one of the worst defensive infields in baseball to arguably one of the best, and ask yourself which direction his results are likely to go. I think the Brewers could reduce the usage of his one bad pitch, lean into his elite sinker and secondaries, and let one of baseball's best defenses convert all those ground balls into outs. Now compare that to Detmers. He's a softer-throwing lefty who, despite having a nice season, has been objectively worse over the course of his career. He was moved to the bullpen last year, and this season he's still a much more fly-ball-oriented pitcher, with a 30.2% fly-ball rate, a 24.9% line-drive rate and only a 36% ground-ball rate. If we're only looking at recent performance, let's use June 20 as the cutoff. Detmers: 4.89 ERA, 4.61 FIP. Soriano: 3.95 ERA, 3.41 FIP. So I'm honestly not sure how Soriano is the one who "looks like he's fading." Yes, Soriano walks more hitters. That's a legitimate concern. But both pitchers have elevated walk rates, and Soriano's numbers were inflated by two starts where he issued seven and eight walks. Those outings count, obviously, but they also skew the overall picture. Detmers is probably having the best season of his career, and I'd still argue Soriano is the better pitcher with the higher ceiling. Give me the guy with elite swing-and-miss secondary pitches whose biggest flaw is overusing one bad fastball—a flaw the Brewers have repeatedly shown they're capable of fixing—over the guy whose breakout season has still been worth roughly one fewer WAR while giving up considerably more fly balls and home runs. To be clear, I like Detmers. I was probably one of the first people on this forum suggesting him as a trade target earlier this season because I thought another left-handed starter made sense. But if I'm choosing between the two, especially for Milwaukee, I'm taking Soriano. I think his arsenal, batted-ball profile and the Brewers' track record of pitch design make him the better bet going forward. The Angels have probably been the 2nd worst run organization in sports... only behind the Rockies and that's because of Ohtani and Trout, BUT, they do have a new GM. John Mozeliak was the GM in St Louis for about a decade and won them a WS. So I wouldn't count on the same old Angels this year. If I'm the Brewers, I'd be fine with a substantial offer, but I'd also want Zeferjahn's involved. Get that guy who can be a Counter balance to Ashby and a bridge to Megill and Uribe. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/ryan-zeferjahn-666171?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb THIS is the type of deal I'd give up an Bishop Letson, Adamczewski, Quero and then... maybe thye want Brock Wilken? I'd settle for Luke Adams.

I haven't seen it much, but BA said it was back. The pop time at least... the problem was his accuracy hasn't come all the way back. I don't know if that's true. A pop time is a pop time though, so it'd make sense. We'd really have to prioritize catcher moving forward and Contreras would almost certainly be back and then extended a QO(not the worst outcome if you're trading for a guy like Soriano anyway). I think that's.... not NEARLY enough. The guy has Ace type stuff, there's zero doubt about that. Now, in fairness, a lot of pitchers do, many don't harnass it. A lot of Jacob Misiorowski's(there's actually not a lot, but take 3-4 MPH off their FB) end up failed relievers. Megill was on his way to being one of them. But Soriano has an ERA in the low 3s as a pitcher who is... I believe in the 90th percentile as a GB pitcher, throwing in front of a poor Angels defense one that's among the worst in the league on the dirtvs the Brewers, an elite defenseive team. Sorriano is a massive upgrade and SHOULD cost more than Skubal given you have him for 2 more seasons after this one. Detmers is nice. I actually suggested him as a trade option probably before anyone on here. Maybe a month into the season when he was moved back into the rotation, he was throwing pretty well and it looked like he was still undervalued. But suggesting Soriano, the guy who'd slot it almost perfectly as our #3 behind Harrison... is worth Quero and Carlos Rodriguez or another player we won't even play on the MLB team, what possible reason woul d the Angles have to make this move?

It's really not magically, they've had plenty of pitchers hurt in the post-season. And Snell couldn't have had the surgery because he didn't know about it. He thought he was just dealing with a dead arm due to pitching a lot down the stretch/post-season and when he tried to ramp up,he had trouble, they did an MRI and found the foreign bodies. That's... a pretty significant thing. I think suggesting they(LAD) timed that so that he wouldn't have to pitch during the year is... kinda silly. They could say he had a grown strain or back soreness or a dead arm if they wanted to just make something up. If you want to talk about the current economic system, we're in total agreement... but that's not this. This is just... common practice during the season.

No, you're not missing anything. This is why we're looking ahead to guys like Luke Adams or Brock Wilken and hose are some of the guys it seems most obvious for the Brewers to trade. It's just roster management. I don't... really know what you'd do differently. You want to make a decision about injuries up to a council or something? And how do you quantify shoulder soreness? What's Woody on the IL for right now technically? "Right Shoulder Inflammation." I don't think they do anything different than us.

But the Brewers do do it. And I assume you meant... when they return, they have to be activated OR be DFAed or they can send a guy down. I think Stone and Miller have options left(though I could be wrong). Lets also keep in mind... the Dodgers sign older players and some of those guys are more injury prone. Snell and Glasnow were healthy at the end of the year, but the Dodgers buy so many arms but they're also willing to take risks on guys who have injury issues.