Game 1: Packers @ Da Bears - Sunday, September 10th 3:25 PM

[CheezWizHed]

1 hour ago, mrn1ceguy said:

While not dominate, Clark did have an amazing play sniffing out that screen pass early in the 3rd quarter.  That heads up play right after Wyatt got that monster sack killed any chance by the bears to get some early 2nd half momentum.  Honestly, that Wyatt sack and Clark breaking up the screen where some of the best heads up plays I've seen our DL do in a long time.

That is true.  He made a nice play there.  I was also thinking of the play where they ran in for a TD and Clark looked like he was on skates going backwards. 

He wasn't horrible overall...just a stark comparison to everyone else on the DL/OLB that seemed to dominate the Bears OL and he was just "meh". 

To be honest, I've wondered how much of his reputation has really be earned or just inherited the last couple years.  He'll have a game here and there, but mostly just "meh".  But announcers will talk him up as if he is a regular pro-bowler. 

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

That is true.  He made a nice play there.  I was also thinking of the play where they ran in for a TD and Clark looked like he was on skates going backwards. 

He wasn't horrible overall...just a stark comparison to everyone else on the DL/OLB that seemed to dominate the Bears OL and he was just "meh". 

To be honest, I've wondered how much of his reputation has really be earned or just inherited the last couple years.  He'll have a game here and there, but mostly just "meh".  But announcers will talk him up as if he is a regular pro-bowler. 

I'll just reiterate what I said in the other thread. I think he's playing out of place. He's better playing NT. Playing DE is negating the physical advantages he has over Centers. I think if you just flipped him and Slaton, he would play much better. As it stands, he's only occupying blockers at DE. At NT, he was abusing Centers with his first step and getting into the backfield.

I think the reputation was well earned, he's just not living up to it in the role he currently plays. 

On the TD run where it looked like he was on skates, that was a clear false start on Wright. He had a clear half of a step before the ball was snapped. I don't think there's any chance that Wright is going to get inside of Clark without that. I went back and replayed it a few times(I can't find the clip, but it's so clear). 

 

But I agree, he's pretty much just "meh," at this point. He's eating up blockers and he's not generally getting moved(Darnell Wright does look like a HR pick for the Bears) at the moment, but he's not the player he once was.

[BrewerFan]

6 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I love how Alexander and Douglas play from snap to whistle... not so much after though. They need to cool off on the post-play crap. 

Walker would make a great RB...just don't give him the ball at the goal line. Not sure why he dance down the line instead of plunging in.  Would've been safer just pushing through the guy instead of dancing away from him.

Jordan is Loving him some Jayden Reed; and me too.  Wow is he giving me Cobb 2.0 vibes (with upgraded the speed).  So comfortable catching punts; looks like he is going to be a major contributor this year (potential top WR??). just looks comfortable out there from day 1.  So very Cobb like. 

Could someone please remind Kenny Clark that he is one of our better DL out there? Was pretty invisible against the Bears.  Maybe the OL was uber focused on him and that led to everyone else getting the pressures, but he didn't look game ready.

Musgrave looks awkward catching deep balls.  Not just against the Bears, but in preseason too.  Hopefully he can fix that soon. 

Love looked pretty jittery in the first half, but settled down nicely in the second.  Looked like a whole new QB in the second. Also looked massively better than Fields.  

After thinking about Fields' performance (and previous ones), I think I've changed my opinion on him (a bit).  I thought accuracy was his main issue, but he was pretty accurate yesterday (~65%).  I think he is just slow to read and react to tight defenses.  When players are wide open (like at Ohio St), they are easy reads.  I can't think of any throw Fields threw (not made, but threw) that was contested.  Even the interception, the WR had a nice gap, Walker just came from the other direction.  On the positive side for the Packers, I don't see how he is going to overcome that.  You can get better at reading defenses as you see more of them.  But the reaction part of that isn't really going to get better...some QBs have it, some don't. 

Coaching - Really nice adjustments at halftime on both offense and defense.  

Agree on pretty much everything. I think Musgraves will be fine, but he did not look good tracking the ball. I think it's just a little rust. If we remember he played just 2 games last year. 

Reed looks awesome. I love the way he goes and attacks the ball, how comfortable he looks.

With Fields...I really don't know if he's the problem as he's just never been able to sit back there and go through his reads. We saw even Rodgers struggle, dropping his eyes and bailing out a bit earlier than he needed to when his OL was struggling. 

Love and Fields are in just polar opposite situations and yesterday made that contrast so stark. That's as generous as I can be with Fields. That I think he's capable, he's just in a terrible situation. If anyone remembers his performance vs the Bears as a rookie, or more accurately the Bears playcalling and OL struggles. Fields was just abused that game. 

That's part of the risk of playing a young QB behind an OL that's poorly constructed and running plays that take time to develop. I think it hurts their growth and creates bad habits. I don't see Fields outgrowing those the way the Bears are currently constructed. Now it looks like they're going to have 2 very high picks in an outstanding draft. 

 

I think the contrast makes the Packers look that much smarter for drafting and developing a QB and then making damn sure they've got an OL around him. The Packers were even playing with 6 OL yesterday with Walker getting snaps. They were that determined to make sure Love had time to throw the ball.

 

Also, so awesome to see Bakh jumping over the pile and getting up to the 2nd level on run plays or there was one where he was beaten early and the thing that's made him great is his ability and balance to recover and he was blocking while kinda bending backward and he provided Love just that extra maybe .3 seconds to get the ball out without being hit. 

 

There's certainly some schadenfreude directed towards the Bears fans over Fields performance, but I honestly still can't tell after 2 years and a game if it's Fields or if it's just the talent around him. And that is about the biggest indictment on the Bears you could give. They STILL haven't been able to build around him. Roschon Johnson, Moore, Kmet, Mooney and Wright are great places to start and I was a huge fan of Johnson coming out and hated the Bears got him, but the rest of that OL is absolute trash. 

[yourout]

For your replay enjoyment.

https://fb.watch/m-o7FI8eTk/?mibextid=CDWPTG

 

[CheezWizHed]

22 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I'll just reiterate what I said in the other thread. I think he's playing out of place. He's better playing NT. Playing DE is negating the physical advantages he has over Centers. I think if you just flipped him and Slaton, he would play much better. As it stands, he's only occupying blockers at DE. At NT, he was abusing Centers with his first step and getting into the backfield.

I think the reputation was well earned, he's just not living up to it in the role he currently plays. 

On the TD run where it looked like he was on skates, that was a clear false start on Wright. He had a clear half of a step before the ball was snapped. I don't think there's any chance that Wright is going to get inside of Clark without that. I went back and replayed it a few times(I can't find the clip, but it's so clear). 

 

But I agree, he's pretty much just "meh," at this point. He's eating up blockers and he's not generally getting moved(Darnell Wright does look like a HR pick for the Bears) at the moment, but he's not the player he once was.

I agree that his reputation was well earned and that his best position is NT... but he hasn't been really good at NT for a couple years.  We sort of thought it was the DL around him... now it looks more like he might have just peaked. 

Right now, I think TJ plays NT better (warning: single game sample size) than Clark did last year.  Hopefully, Clark picks it up, because I don't see him getting the NT position back.  If he plays solid on the run and occasional pressures, I'll take it.  The DL is going to rotate heavily anyway.

I saw the Bears OL jump a ton of times like you mentioned. I didn't remember it on that particular play, but good catch. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

I feel like Clark historically has been a slow starter in terms of onfield splash plays during the season, and as the season wears on he starts showing up more frequently.  He can still dominate 1 on 1 blocks, but he's also 27 and been in the league 8 seasons already - that's a good amount of wear and tear on an interior DL at any age.

 

[BrewerFan]

13 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

I agree that his reputation was well earned and that his best position is NT... but he hasn't been really good at NT for a couple years.  We sort of thought it was the DL around him... now it looks more like he might have just peaked. 

Right now, I think TJ plays NT better (warning: single game sample size) than Clark did last year.  Hopefully, Clark picks it up, because I don't see him getting the NT position back.  If he plays solid on the run and occasional pressures, I'll take it.  The DL is going to rotate heavily anyway.

I saw the Bears OL jump a ton of times like you mentioned. I didn't remember it on that particular play, but good catch. 

It's possible he's just fallen off, but last year was the first year he didn't play NT. There was a stretch of games under Pettine...I don't recall if it was 2019 or 2020 where they experimented with him at the DE. They thought it'd free him up more to be more of a penetrator, but it was the worst FB he played. Then he came back and finished the year on a tear and then they didn't move him until last year because they had Slaton and again they thought this was best for Clark.

MAYBE it's the case that he's just fallen off, but it's kinda hard to know without seeing him getting snaps over the Center. He's definitely not a Wyatt type of athlete. He doesn't have that type of 1st step, BUT he's so good with his hands and he has a good first step, combined with the Center obviously being the easiest position as they've got to snap the ball and then come up, that he just made Centers look bad. It allowed him to beat Double teams at times, and just wreck plays.

 

Slaton does his job fine. He's a two gap DL who doesn't get moved, but that's all you're having Clark doing right now anyway. I don't think Barry is going to bother to even try and move Clark back and I think it's GREATLY eroding his value. 

But, sure, if we've got others who are playing well and the front is getting the job done, we don't need that version of Clark. 

I'd just say that Bears OL was bad except for Wright. So I hope they can keep that up. 

 

Moving forward though, you really might as well move on from Clark(in '24 or '25) if you're going to use him this way, OR if you've decided his play has dropped off, as you can find other guys who can do what he does and they will not come with a ~28M cap hit. 

[BrewerFan]

21 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I feel like Clark historically has been a slow starter in terms of onfield splash plays during the season, and as the season wears on he starts showing up more frequently.  He can still dominate 1 on 1 blocks, but he's also 27 and been in the league 8 seasons already - that's a good amount of wear and tear on an interior DL at any age.

 

He's definitely an old 27(he'll be 28 in a month). 

And he's generally played his best ball in November/December. But he's also dominated Whitehair and guys like Bradburry in early season matchups in the past. But I think that's accurate. 

 

Even if he doesn't make the big splash plays, he's certainly got value and is a very important member of this defense. I don't want my posts to suggest I think otherwise. But it's more of a dependable veteran leader who has really good instincts and now the top 3-5 IDL that he was ranked for much of his career.  I'm just still hoping for more from him as a penetrator, or someone who can collapse the pocket. Maybe those days are gone, maybe he'll again have a late season resurgence. I'm pretty convinced that it's due to him playing out of position, but I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong.

[LouisEly]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:40 AM, CheezWizHed said:

When players are wide open (like at Ohio St), they are easy reads.

The tempo "check with me" offense they run/ran at Ohio State doesn't help either.  It doesn't teach players to read defenses and make decisions coming up to the line.  They just look over at the cards being held up and do what the card says. 

[BrewerFan]

22 hours ago, LouisEly said:

The tempo "check with me" offense they run/ran at Ohio State doesn't help either.  It doesn't teach players to read defenses and make decisions coming up to the line.  They just look over at the cards being held up and do what the card says. 

I agree with all of this. The separation, the stupid cards...but they did the same with Mahomes, Lawrence, Watson(I think Clemson did that). Rodgers Tedford system hurt him.

It's up to the coaches to develop them in the NFL. I would be confident if we'd have gotten Justin Fields as a rookie and he'd have sat and learned with Tom Clements...I think he'd be a really nice NFL QB.

The Bears have done their best to ruin him and far as I can tell, little to help him. Just that Browns game the first year, he got abused so badly, that's awful for a rookie QB. 

I'll reiterate, I just hope they give Fields one more year before trying to move on because I do not want to see Caleb Williams in the NFCN!

 

Edit-But you're right, the gimmicky offenses don't help nearly as much as playing in a pro-style offense.

Edited September 13, 2023 by BrewerFan

[CheezWizHed]

18 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

It's possible he's just fallen off, but last year was the first year he didn't play NT. There was a stretch of games under Pettine...I don't recall if it was 2019 or 2020 where they experimented with him at the DE. They thought it'd free him up more to be more of a penetrator, but it was the worst FB he played. Then he came back and finished the year on a tear and then they didn't move him until last year because they had Slaton and again they thought this was best for Clark.

Clark still played a significant amount at NT last year.  TJ did play throughout the year with Clark either at DE or taking a break.  But the base D was still Reed-Clark-Lowry for most of the season.  And Clark had most if not all the pass rush reps at NT. 

It wasn't until the last 3 games of the year when Slaton's use started to increase; including his 2 starts.  Not coincidentally, that was when they finally gave up on Lowry at DE.  Even then he was only used 40-50% of the defensive snaps. For reference Clark typically played 70-80% of the defensive snaps. I couldn't find anywhere that had snaps at a position. 

[BrewerFan]

5 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Clark still played a significant amount at NT last year.  TJ did play throughout the year with Clark either at DE or taking a break.  But the base D was still Reed-Clark-Lowry for most of the season.  And Clark had most if not all the pass rush reps at NT. 

It wasn't until the last 3 games of the year when Slaton's use started to increase; including his 2 starts.  Not coincidentally, that was when they finally gave up on Lowry at DE.  Even then he was only used 40-50% of the defensive snaps. For reference Clark typically played 70-80% of the defensive snaps. I couldn't find anywhere that had snaps at a position. 

You can go by just pure snap count at a position and I'm sure we could find that if we both tried, but even that can be a bit of a vague grouping. JJ Watt for example, he was playing in a 3-4 and he would line up as a wide 9. So he's coming off the edge a majority of the time(which is extremely rare in the 34, but just an example).

But I'm talking about in the base defense, lining up as a 0 tech. Head up over the Center. I'm going off memory here as I can't find the exact number right now, but it was a very small number of snaps as a true NT. I think it was 16% as a NT and even among those, they were primarily as a 2i so inside the Guard's shoulder between the Guard and Center. I think it was 55 snaps he played as a true 0 tech and that's where he's always been at his best. 

 

Every year of his career a breakdown of snaps by position will have him playing DE primarily, so even the his best years he was lining up at DE more because he's always been our best pass rusher for a DL. I just want to see him back playing heads up over the center where he can blow the plays up. A guy like Myers is too slow for him, guys like Whitehair or Bradbury are to small for him and with his head RIGHT over the Football, he was firing off the line and just wrecking plays.

 

[CheezWizHed]

16 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

You can go by just pure snap count at a position and I'm sure we could find that if we both tried, but even that can be a bit of a vague grouping. JJ Watt for example, he was playing in a 3-4 and he would line up as a wide 9. So he's coming off the edge a majority of the time(which is extremely rare in the 34, but just an example).

But I'm talking about in the base defense, lining up as a 0 tech. Head up over the Center. I'm going off memory here as I can't find the exact number right now, but it was a very small number of snaps as a true NT. I think it was 16% as a NT and even among those, they were primarily as a 2i so inside the Guard's shoulder between the Guard and Center. I think it was 55 snaps he played as a true 0 tech and that's where he's always been at his best. 

 

Every year of his career a breakdown of snaps by position will have him playing DE primarily, so even the his best years he was lining up at DE more because he's always been our best pass rusher for a DL. I just want to see him back playing heads up over the center where he can blow the plays up. A guy like Myers is too slow for him, guys like Whitehair or Bradbury are to small for him and with his head RIGHT over the Football, he was firing off the line and just wrecking plays.

 

I'm sure the snap numbers at each position is buried in the annuls of the team's metrics, never to be seen by any of us... I was simply trying looking at whether he was playing the NT position (i.e. middle of the 3-4) or not. Thus I assumed:

1. If Slaton and Clark were in together, Clark was playing a DE role and Slaton the NT role.  Slaton played around 30% of the snaps the first 14 games, 40-50% the last 3.  I'd assume Clark was also resting a chunk of those snaps (he played 70-80% of the snaps typically)
2. If Reed-Clark-Lowry were in together, Clark was playing the NT role. Each player had about 60-80% of the snaps for the first 14 games (Lowry had very few the last 3 games).  Clark also took most of the snaps in pass rush when there were 2 DL.  

Obviously, the gap they are playing when in that role is designed to fit the defensive play called at the time.  So, if Clark is truly only a one-trick pony (i.e. playing 0 tech), then he really isn't the pro-bowler people talk him up to be.  The NT needs to be able to flex around the 0-2 tech positions as necessary.  

I agree he isn't as good at DE, but the last couple years, he was really only "solid" at NT and not great. 

[BrewerFan]

13 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

I'm sure the snap numbers at each position is buried in the annuls of the team's metrics, never to be seen by any of us... I was simply trying looking at whether he was playing the NT position (i.e. middle of the 3-4) or not. Thus I assumed:

1. If Slaton and Clark were in together, Clark was playing a DE role and Slaton the NT role.  Slaton played around 30% of the snaps the first 14 games, 40-50% the last 3.  I'd assume Clark was also resting a chunk of those snaps (he played 70-80% of the snaps typically)
2. If Reed-Clark-Lowry were in together, Clark was playing the NT role. Each player had about 60-80% of the snaps for the first 14 games (Lowry had very few the last 3 games).  Clark also took most of the snaps in pass rush when there were 2 DL.  

 

I have seen the numbers by actual position...but that might have been when I still had the PFF subscription(which...I think ~200 a year, not really worth it). 

Slaton though, his snap count was fairly consistent all year long. He was playing ~20 snaps early in the year and then it obviously varied by game(if the other team is passing a lot or if we're in sub packages). Example, he played 19 total vs Chicago and the Rams in weeks 13/14 when we had a lead, he got 25 vs the Giants when they were running the ball more regularly in week 5. 

His lowest snap counts coincided with the other teams passing. Week 3 he played just 20% of the snaps because Tampa threw the ball 42 times and only ran it 12 times, once on a sneak with Brady, once on an end around. So they were in 3 WRer sets constantly, we played primarily sub packages.

19 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

Obviously, the gap they are playing when in that role is designed to fit the defensive play called at the time.  So, if Clark is truly only a one-trick pony (i.e. playing 0 tech), then he really isn't the pro-bowler people talk him up to be.  The NT needs to be able to flex around the 0-2 tech positions as necessary.  

I agree he isn't as good at DE, but the last couple years, he was really only "solid" at NT and not great. 

It's more relevant to the scheme you're playing with your DL. The DL doesn't HAVE to change their gap depending on the play call. Pettine wanted more penetration from his DL, Barry came from a scheme where that was what they played, in GB, he's playing more 2 gap and they're just shifting their DL based on the offense. Wyatt goes from a 3 to a 5 if he's on the strong side and the OLBer lines up on the outside  of the TE and the NT lines up accordingly. I don't think you need to do that, especially in a 3-4 with 2 off-ball backers on the field the majority of the time. In LA, Barry played with a DL with a 0, 2 4i DEs and then two OLBers and just played it straight up and he did that his first year in GB. You let your DL try to get into the backfield and disrupt the play. I understand why when you had Lancaster, Lowry, I don't think we need to do that with our personnel. 

So under Barry, yes, it does matter on the play call because of the scheme up front. 

So I don't disagree with your premise here, but it's the coaches job to put them in the BEST situation to have success. I guess I'd agree then, he's not the pro-bowler people talk him up to be. He's never been a Chris Jones type talent. But he IS a PB caliber player when you put him in the right position. When you put Jaire last year in soft coverage and his PFF grade was 60-something through the first half of the year, was he not an elite pro-bowl caliber player that people talk him up as? I guess not really, but when you let him play to his strengths, that defense excelled.

And this isn't a whole schematic shift. I actually think it fits your defense better. Wyatt is just ideally made to be a penetrating DE(for that matter, Brooks and Wooden). Slaton and Ford...they're not. They're 2 gap players. So it's just in MY opinion about tweaking the way you play them and I think Clark would play much better.

There's no doubt, the best players are the ones who can adjust to any scheme. I think Nick Bosa would be fine as a 5 tech or 9 tech in a 43, JJ Watt would have excelled as a 3 tech or as a 9 like he played MOST often in Texas...Aaron Donald, doesn't matter. Clark isn't that. But few are. 

 

He'll still make some plays as a DE, in sub packages, but he's not going to dominate. 

Maybe I'm wrong and he's just an old 28 year old and you're seeing a similar career arc to Cobb(sans the injuries) and he's just come into the league as a 20 year old and he's wearing down. Maybe playing him fewer snaps would help as well. 

I'll just argue I think he made the whole defense better when he was put right in the middle of that defense, allowed to penetrate and blow the plays up. As they've moved away from that, his performance has dropped. The defense is playing well, but I think that'd be the case either way with the talent around Clark at all 3 levels.

[CheezWizHed]

3 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I have seen the numbers by actual position...but that might have been when I still had the PFF subscription(which...I think ~200 a year, not really worth it). 

Slaton though, his snap count was fairly consistent all year long. He was playing ~20 snaps early in the year and then it obviously varied by game(if the other team is passing a lot or if we're in sub packages). Example, he played 19 total vs Chicago and the Rams in weeks 13/14 when we had a lead, he got 25 vs the Giants when they were running the ball more regularly in week 5. 

His lowest snap counts coincided with the other teams passing. Week 3 he played just 20% of the snaps because Tampa threw the ball 42 times and only ran it 12 times, once on a sneak with Brady, once on an end around. So they were in 3 WRer sets constantly, we played primarily sub packages.

It's more relevant to the scheme you're playing with your DL. The DL doesn't HAVE to change their gap depending on the play call. Pettine wanted more penetration from his DL, Barry came from a scheme where that was what they played, in GB, he's playing more 2 gap and they're just shifting their DL based on the offense. Wyatt goes from a 3 to a 5 if he's on the strong side and the OLBer lines up on the outside  of the TE and the NT lines up accordingly. I don't think you need to do that, especially in a 3-4 with 2 off-ball backers on the field the majority of the time. In LA, Barry played with a DL with a 0, 2 4i DEs and then two OLBers and just played it straight up and he did that his first year in GB. You let your DL try to get into the backfield and disrupt the play. I understand why when you had Lancaster, Lowry, I don't think we need to do that with our personnel. 

So under Barry, yes, it does matter on the play call because of the scheme up front. 

So I don't disagree with your premise here, but it's the coaches job to put them in the BEST situation to have success. I guess I'd agree then, he's not the pro-bowler people talk him up to be. He's never been a Chris Jones type talent. But he IS a PB caliber player when you put him in the right position. When you put Jaire last year in soft coverage and his PFF grade was 60-something through the first half of the year, was he not an elite pro-bowl caliber player that people talk him up as? I guess not really, but when you let him play to his strengths, that defense excelled.

And this isn't a whole schematic shift. I actually think it fits your defense better. Wyatt is just ideally made to be a penetrating DE(for that matter, Brooks and Wooden). Slaton and Ford...they're not. They're 2 gap players. So it's just in MY opinion about tweaking the way you play them and I think Clark would play much better.

There's no doubt, the best players are the ones who can adjust to any scheme. I think Nick Bosa would be fine as a 5 tech or 9 tech in a 43, JJ Watt would have excelled as a 3 tech or as a 9 like he played MOST often in Texas...Aaron Donald, doesn't matter. Clark isn't that. But few are. 

 

He'll still make some plays as a DE, in sub packages, but he's not going to dominate. 

Maybe I'm wrong and he's just an old 28 year old and you're seeing a similar career arc to Cobb(sans the injuries) and he's just come into the league as a 20 year old and he's wearing down. Maybe playing him fewer snaps would help as well. 

I'll just argue I think he made the whole defense better when he was put right in the middle of that defense, allowed to penetrate and blow the plays up. As they've moved away from that, his performance has dropped. The defense is playing well, but I think that'd be the case either way with the talent around Clark at all 3 levels.

DLs move around in any and all schemes based on blitzes, stunts, what the LB is going to do, etc... Doesn't matter who the DC is... no one rushes from the same alignment every time.  All NTs need to swap between 2-1-0-1-2 (maybe more?) based on the call.  Someone that is 100% heads-up on the center (0) makes a predictable defense that won't succeed. 

Of course, maybe that is what Ed Donatell did...😅

Point is... Clark played significant time last year at NT - his best position - and was just OK.  I'm sure at DE, he will be also OK.  Better than Lowery...maybe a bit like Reed (strong run D, a little bit of pass rush) last year before he wore down late in the season. 

I'm sure Clark will get snaps at NT in obvious passing downs or mid-range.  But Slaton is playing a very strong NT also. 

[nate82]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:57 PM, BrewerFan said:

On the TD run where it looked like he was on skates, that was a clear false start on Wright. He had a clear half of a step before the ball was snapped. I don't think there's any chance that Wright is going to get inside of Clark without that. I went back and replayed it a few times(I can't find the clip, but it's so clear). 

Nearly all of the good offensive lineman are able to get away with this.  The half step that is borderline false start is done by nearly every good offensive lineman.  The good ones can time it perfectly so it fools the refs and Wright is really good at this though he still needs some work on it.  It is basically cheating the refs into thinking the play is starting and getting that half step in helps a lot. 

Some of the best defensive edge rushers are also about to do this and are able to get that half step where they are off sides but are able to fool the ref into thinking the play has started. 

[BrewerFan]

6 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Nearly all of the good offensive lineman are able to get away with this.  The half step that is borderline false start is done by nearly every good offensive lineman.  The good ones can time it perfectly so it fools the refs and Wright is really good at this though he still needs some work on it.  It is basically cheating the refs into thinking the play is starting and getting that half step in helps a lot. 

Some of the best defensive edge rushers are also about to do this and are able to get that half step where they are off sides but are able to fool the ref into thinking the play has started. 

A half step? Wright had already beaten Clark to the spot by the time the ball was snapped. You'll see good OTs who get into their pass set and it LOOKS like they moved early, but you need to go back and look, but this was so far out of the norm, they finally called it the next time he did it. He came up, out of his stance, opened up and took a big step before the ball moved.

 

Yeah, the best get great jumps, these were blatant false starts. 

I did mis-speak earlier, the one where it was really egregious was on the 2-point conversion. I get what you're saying, the best get good jumps, but this was over the top.

On the All-22 it's at 59 seconds left in the 3rd, if you just have the game still on your DVR they give you an overhead view and it was bad.

[BrewerFan]

21 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

DLs move around in any and all schemes based on blitzes, stunts, what the LB is going to do, etc... Doesn't matter who the DC is... no one rushes from the same alignment every time.  All NTs need to swap between 2-1-0-1-2 (maybe more?) based on the call.  Someone that is 100% heads-up on the center (0) makes a predictable defense that won't succeed. 

Of course, maybe that is what Ed Donatell did...😅

Point is... Clark played significant time last year at NT - his best position - and was just OK.  I'm sure at DE, he will be also OK.  Better than Lowery...maybe a bit like Reed (strong run D, a little bit of pass rush) last year before he wore down late in the season. 

I'm sure Clark will get snaps at NT in obvious passing downs or mid-range.  But Slaton is playing a very strong NT also. 

Slaton is playing an an effective NT, I'm not disputing that. He's not getting moved off his spot. BUT...I see no reason he couldn't do that as a 3 or at DE.

And I did find Clark's snaps. It's 21% 2 years ago at NT and 16% last year. Those numbers are dramatically down and coincide pretty directly with his decline in production. 

Last year was the worst year of his career. Even if you play him as a 1 or a 1i, he's still lining up over the center. They're usually not going to line up as a 2 in an odd front, so that's more in sub packages.

He's the bottom line as I see it. Kenny Clark is not worth paying ~18M a year if you're not going to play to his strengths and they're not doing that right now. He's a nice player, not a difference maker and you should either adjust your scheme or you should look for players that fit your scheme better and go with them.  I don't think it'd make a material different to Slaton if they played him at DE, but I think it does make a difference with Clark. So if you're going to stick with what you have...I think you're wasting resources on Clark and I guess they really don't have any choice but to keep him as his cap hits the next two years are kinda locked in(unless you can get a decent draft pick for him like a 3rd which is unlikely).

[CheezWizHed]

On 9/14/2023 at 3:30 PM, BrewerFan said:

And I did find Clark's snaps. It's 21% 2 years ago at NT and 16% last year. Those numbers are dramatically down and coincide pretty directly with his decline in production. 

Got a link? There was no one else playing NT in the last two years, so I find that number "odd".  Unless they are defining NT as only when we run base 3-4.  If that is all Clark played NT the last 2 years, then there is no way we had an NT on 100% of the snaps.

On 9/14/2023 at 3:30 PM, BrewerFan said:

Last year was the worst year of his career. Even if you play him as a 1 or a 1i, he's still lining up over the center. They're usually not going to line up as a 2 in an odd front, so that's more in sub packages.

Yes, you see him move out at times (i.e. formations with wide open middle) during pass rush situations. 

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Yes, you see him move out at times (i.e. formations with wide open middle) during pass rush situations. 

Yes, sub packages would be packages we employ for pass rush situations.

That's what I'm saying here;

Quote

Even if you play him as a 1 or a 1i, he's still lining up over the center. They're usually not going to line up as a 2 in an odd front, so that's more in sub packages.

Odd front=Odd numbered front.
So the 4 man fronts with 2 DL and 2 OLBers where we often have our DEs playing 3-4 techniques or where the DL would line up.
So when I say they're not going to line up as a 2 in an odd front, I'm saying they're not going to play a 2 when we're got 3 DL and our 2 edges.

Those would be snaps in which we'd have no NT. 

4 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Got a link? There was no one else playing NT in the last two years, so I find that number "odd".  Unless they are defining NT as only when we run base 3-4.  If that is all Clark played NT the last 2 years, then there is no way we had an NT on 100% of the snaps.

Of course there's not going to be a NT playing 100% of the snaps. Nickel comes in, DL comes out, that DL is ALMOST always the NT, he kicks over to DE. They rush 4 unless they bring pressure. The exception being when Za'Darius Smith would come in, rush over the guard and Clark would stay at NT or be allowed to hunt out the matchup he wanted inside. You put Clark/Smith/Gary and line them up over the Center, Guard and OT, now you're getting one on ones or they're forced to slide their protection to help you, and 

But just last year when you were talking about Slaton playing so little at NT early, he still got more snaps than Clark at NT week 1 and 4 of the first 8 weeks...and then the last month of the season he was the primary NT. 

 

Anyway, there's a pretty strong correlation you can see when you line up his best years with his time spent at NT(I did get it backwards, it was 21% last year 16% the year before).

But his PFF Grades;

2023-69.2(not sure he's played NT at all this year...he did play better vs Atl. He was lining up over, probably their weakest OL, their rookie from Syracuse).

The WHOLE point of moving Clark was the belief that he'd get less double teams, but that's not what has happened. He's gotten just as many, but now since you have a NT playing DE, that first step over the Center is no longer and advantage.
2022-66.4
2021-74.9
2020-73.8
2019-79.9
2018-90.2
2017-87.3
Primarily played NT in '19, '18 and '17.

I think the production and the grades line up pretty well with the eye test. The whole point of moving Clark to DE was to get him more one on ones, but that's not happening. 

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2022/11/30/2346773/kenny-clarks-usage-has-been-unusual-in-2022

[CheezWizHed]

We've gone down a long rabbit hole but I guess that makes somethings clearer.  I wasn't being as specific when I was saying "NT" vs "DE" on the amount of DL playing at the moment or based on the gap he played.  I wasn't using the terminology that if the NT moved to gap 2, he suddenly became a DE or if there were 2 DL, he was a DE...

I was looking at it as the NT was a "role" in the defense.  With 3 DL, he'd be over center mostly, but with 2 DL, might swing left or right over guard at times.  But wouldn't be out on the G-T gap or head on the T, like he could be when playing DE "role". 

Now, trying to extract myself from the rabbit hole... 😂.  Even when Clark was the starting NT, he had to be flexible and not just play on the center.  He had to flex out for pass rush in other gaps.   So while his usage has changed some, he still has a good chunk of plays (and most of the obvious pass rush snaps) from the middle of the D-line.  

And I think we can both agree he looked much better in game 2 (though ironically the move to DE put him on a rookie G which he demolished often).  I'm sure he has been following our discourse all week and we've motivating his play!  Congratulations to us! Now we need to keep it up for another 15 weeks! 😂

[BrewerFan]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:06 AM, CheezWizHed said:

We've gone down a long rabbit hole but I guess that makes somethings clearer.  I wasn't being as specific when I was saying "NT" vs "DE" on the amount of DL playing at the moment or based on the gap he played.  I wasn't using the terminology that if the NT moved to gap 2, he suddenly became a DE or if there were 2 DL, he was a DE...

I was looking at it as the NT was a "role" in the defense.  With 3 DL, he'd be over center mostly, but with 2 DL, might swing left or right over guard at times.  But wouldn't be out on the G-T gap or head on the T, like he could be when playing DE "role". 

Yeah...we're kinda in the weeds here. I like using the technique more than the position because...NT just means you're playing in the middle of an odd front whereas technique will tell you exactly where you played. When you play with 2 DL and he's lining up wide...or given the freedom to lineup wherever, he's now playing DE. That's why he's even when he was playing 50% snaps at NT, he was still playing so many at the 3 or DE. Because he stayed on the field so often on obvious passing downs. 

 

On 9/19/2023 at 9:06 AM, CheezWizHed said:

  And I think we can both agree he looked much better in game 2 (though ironically the move to DE put him on a rookie G which he demolished often).  I'm sure he has been following our discourse all week and we've motivating his play!  Congratulations to us! Now we need to keep it up for another 15 weeks! 😂

He did play much better. It was Bergeron's 2nd game, so it'll take a little while to figure out if he was the weak spot on that DL(I mean, he's bound to be the worst OL with Lindstrom, McGary and Matthews, but if he's a good OL or a poor one) but it was a situation where he had a pretty obvious advantage. I just think he had that playing against centers...or at least most of them. He's off the ball quicker as he's directly over the ball. The Center is a split second late coming up and it gave Clark a built in advantage and allowed him to use his versatility to kinda abuse them.

 

Just the fact that you have a NT who can kick out and play DE on passing downs kinda tells you he's a unique DT.

 

Clark's gonna have another change to match up vs the weaker OL in the Saints OL with Hurst and Ruiz both pretty poor OL(Penning also grades out very poorly). 

I expect him to have a big year.

 

ANYWAY...I think the starters on the DL are pretty good and pretty much set up. My personal opinions aside on how they should move guys around, Clark, Slaton and Wyatt are 3 pretty damn solid. Brooks and Wooden....they are not gonna offer much vs the run at this point beyond effort. 

 

I love the way this team is built. With 3 picks in the first 2 rounds, I'd love to see another draft focused on OL/DL with their top 3 picks. Clark isn't going anywhere for the next 2 years and at that point he'll be in his 10th year. So this is the perfect year to look for a more typical DE. It's clear now Bakhtiari is done as the player we knew. He's still very much useful, but...that has to be addressed(their lucky they hit a grand slam on Tom which you seldom hear about when people complain about the Myers-Creed pick). But sticking with that, that UGA center looks like a great fit in this offensive scheme.