Jump to content
Brewer Fanatic
  • Brewers News & Analysis

    Why Tyler Black Might Solve One Problem But Raise Another for the 2024 Brewers


    Matthew Trueblood

    The big Brewers prospect news of the week is the massive contract extension to which the team and outfielder Jackson Chourio have agreed. The team also needs help from the farm on the infield, though, and another of their top prospects poses a potential solution to that problem.

    Image courtesy of © Curt Hogg / Milwauke | 2023 Mar 6

    Brewers Video

    It's easy to get excited about Tyler Black. He's a left-handed hitter with speed, plate discipline, and a good hit tool. His on-base percentage (just under .420) and stolen-base total (55) were each gaudy last year. He feels like a dynamic addition to the lineup, just waiting a pinch more seasoning in Triple A. He feels like a potential middle-of-the-order bat, even if it be a bit non-traditional, because he cracked 25 doubles, 12 triples, and 18 home runs across the top two levels of the minors in 2023.

    Unfortunately, the real picture is probably a little bit less exciting. Black's bat-to-ball skills and his patience should translate well to the majors. He whiffed quite a bit on offspeed stuff with Nashville in September, but otherwise, he looks like a well-rounded pure hitter.

    Brooksbaseball-Chart (99).jpeg

    Still, both the strikeout and the walk rates Black ran in the high minors will move at least some amount in an unfriendly direction when he reaches MLB. That means more pressure on the actual batted balls he generates. In MLB, players without good power get the bat knocked out of their hands, at least to some extent. We saw that with Sal Frelick and Brice Turang in 2023. Both are modestly valuable, but that value had to come almost solely from their gloves and their legs, because they lacked the pop to be great hitters.

    Admittedly, our data on Black is quite limited, so far. In that sample, though, the indications are that he's not much more of a slugger than Frelick or Turang.

    Exit Velocities, Triple A, 2023

    Player

    Avg EV

    95th %ile EV

    Tyler Black

    86.3

    103

    Sal Frelick

    84.9

    102.2

    Brice Turang

    87.8

    103.3

    That directly compares Black to what those two guys did in Triple A; the numbers above don't include when Turang and Frelick faced big-league competition. If you harbor any serious hopes that Black will hit for power, these data run into them like a fist into a kidney. Worse, Black has run high ground-ball rates throughout his climb up the minor-league ladder. He made some progress on adjusting his swing plane in 2023, but it's unlikely he's going to elevate the ball enough to produce substantially more power than his raw exit speeds imply.

    Pair Black with Andruw Monasterio, and you could see a solid platoon form at the hot corner. Monasterio is a fine defender there, although Black is much less polished. Monasterio showed the same bat-to-ball ability and the same comfort hitting opposite-handed pitchers hard that Black has demonstrated in the upper minors. They could be an average-plus overall tandem.

    However, every platoon comes at a cost, and this one would pay twice the price. Two players for one spot means one fewer roster spot to use on other position players and other skill sets. In this case, it also seals off third base and eliminates that as a position at which the Brewers could shop for a difference-making power bat. If Black isn't that kind of player, the team still very much needs one--not just a good hitter, but one who can swat 30-plus home runs. Platooning Monasterio and Black at a position that traditionally does yield some power would mean narrowing the avenues to much-needed upgrades for Matt Arnold, Pat Murphy and company.

    What do you think? Will Black develop power at the highest level, despite the underlying indicators in his batted-ball data? Might he be better used as a trade chip this winter? Comment to start a conversation.

    Follow Brewer Fanatic For Milwaukee Brewers News & Analysis

    Recent Brewers Articles

    Recent Brewers Videos

    Brewers Top Prospects

    Braylon Payne

    Wisconsin Timber Rattlers - A+, OF
    On Thursday, the 2024 top pick went 2-for-3 with two walks, with his fourth steal, and his second home run of the season. He's hitting .320 (1.029 OPS) in 8 games.

    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

    Monasterio can back up SS and 2B also.  Black can play 2B (in a pinch) or 1B.  So it isn't like they are stuck playing one position. Frankly, this is no different than last year except Black has some upside that we didn't have at 3B last year.

    • Like 1
    Quote

     If you harbor any serious hopes that Black will hit for power, these data run into them like a fist into a kidney. Worse, Black has run high ground-ball rates throughout his climb up the minor-league ladder.

    Because...in 173 PAs in AAA, his exit velo was similar to two rookies the Brewers had last year who didn't hit for a lot of power in their rookie season, ANY hope you had Black will hit for power, "these data run into them like a fist into a kidney!"

    Ok...maybe trying a bit hard to go for the dramatic line here. 

    .307/.356/.525- Cody Bellinger's EV last year over ~560 ABs, 87.9

    Not over a partial season in AAA, but over a whole MLB season. 

     

    ...this is silly. Also, not sure anyone believes Black is going to be this big power-hitting corner IFer. He's not expected to be the next Pete Alonso. The kid did steal 55 bags last year while carrying an OBP of ~.420. So his value doesn't lie exclusively with his power(he's got a 40 power grade and the hope was he'd hit for 15-20 HRs). But the inference that ANY hope that he'll 'hit for power,' is just devastated by this? It's kinda silly on multiple levels.

    Small sample size and comparing him to two other rookies for the Brewers last year(one who also had a pretty small sample size) and neither of whom have really ever hit for power.

     

    But to be clear, the "problem," he's creating for the Brewers...the team that was playing Monasterio and Anderson at 3B last year...is that he may not hit for a lot of power(or I guess definitely won't based on the article)?


    I'll be alright if he hits .260/.350/.375. That'll be just fine for a rookie 3B.

    • Like 1
    Terry
  • Verified Member
  • Posted (edited)

    Hart hit rate in August was 25.4%, while in September it's 38.9%. Slight increase in EV from 85.9% to 86.6%. If the source is correct(Justbaseball), they did mention that his 90th percentile exit velocity jump by 4 MPH compared to last year. Here's hoping that there's still room to grow. Still I think he's gonna have better numbers than any of our options at 1/3B last year.
    I'm wondering what's Turang's and Frelick's chase% and whiff% were like in Triple A.

    Edited by Terry

    I truly believed that Tyler Black was going to be the second coming of Jeff Cirillo (.296/.366/.430 career), with good average and moderate power. Now I'm not so sure.

    I still don't think Milwaukee should overreach (read overspend) for a 3B, but if they could get someone like Candelario or Urshela on the cheap, then Black almost certainly does need to go elsewhere. 

    OR, let Black develop at Triple A and see if his metrics improve, and then go from there. In the meantime, find a low-rent platoon partner with Andruw and hope like hell Tyler learns how to hit the ball in the air...

    1 hour ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    Platooning Monasterio and Black at a position that traditionally does yield some power would mean narrowing the avenues to much-needed upgrades for Matt Arnold, Pat Murphy and company.

    All the more reason to make Rhys Hoskins our number one signing this year.  Add his power bat across the infield with a two-year deal (player opt out to entice him) which buys time for Wilken to get another year under his belt before replacing him.

    32 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

    .307/.356/.525- Cody Bellinger's EV last year over ~560 ABs, 87.9

    I don't find this to be a compelling rebuttal because I see huge red flags with Bellinger's 2023, too.

    I'm somewhat down on Black because his batted ball data worries me. But mostly, it's that batted ball data coupled with his defensive limitations. If he was an average or above-average fielder - which he might have a chance to become in time - killing worms and legging it out could be a pretty valuable player.

    But in his current incarnation, I have more than a little concern about his viability as an MLB everyday player.

    1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

    Because...in 173 PAs in AAA, his exit velo was similar to two rookies the Brewers had last year who didn't hit for a lot of power in their rookie season, ANY hope you had Black will hit for power, "these data run into them like a fist into a kidney!"

    Ok...maybe trying a bit hard to go for the dramatic line here. 

    .307/.356/.525- Cody Bellinger's EV last year over ~560 ABs, 87.9

    Not over a partial season in AAA, but over a whole MLB season. 

     

    ...this is silly. Also, not sure anyone believes Black is going to be this big power-hitting corner IFer. He's not expected to be the next Pete Alonso. The kid did steal 55 bags last year while carrying an OBP of ~.420. So his value doesn't lie exclusively with his power(he's got a 40 power grade and the hope was he'd hit for 15-20 HRs). But the inference that ANY hope that he'll 'hit for power,' is just devastated by this? It's kinda silly on multiple levels.

    Small sample size and comparing him to two other rookies for the Brewers last year(one who also had a pretty small sample size) and neither of whom have really ever hit for power.

     

    But to be clear, the "problem," he's creating for the Brewers...the team that was playing Monasterio and Anderson at 3B last year...is that he may not hit for a lot of power(or I guess definitely won't based on the article)?


    I'll be alright if he hits .260/.350/.375. That'll be just fine for a rookie 3B.

    Bellinger exceeds his expected numbers by hitting everything in the air, and especially in the air to the pull field. Black hits it on the ground. So, that comparison doesn't work. It's Bellinger who is an exception to the rule (although, as Brock said, I have concerns about his long-term future, even then), and Black doesn't do what he and others do to become those exceptions.

    I think that line you list is a reasonable projection for next year, and I love a solid OBP guy, too... but with below-average defense, is that really helping? I don't think so. It's not useless, but I feel like the Crew needs more.

    • Like 1

    I think the Brewers should and will make moves that are for the now and later, not just go all in for this year on a player with a bloated 1 year deal.  Can Black play 3B long term in MLB?  If so, there is a whole filled at least for now.  Otherwise 2B?  If we don't fill 1B then there he is.  We shall see.

    1 minute ago, Trax said:

    I think the Brewers should and will make moves that are for the now and later, not just go all in for this year on a player with a bloated 1 year deal.  Can Black play 3B long term in MLB?  If so, there is a whole filled at least for now.  Otherwise 2B?  If we don't fill 1B then there he is.  We shall see.

    I'm not saying he can't be a good first baseman, but dude is 5-foot-10. I dunno. I think he might be an outfielder, long-term. 

    I hear you on not spending big on a one-year deal, but there are star-caliber players available on a long-term basis. Isaac Paredes. Maybe Matt Chapman, if we're feeling spendy. I don't mean to totally drown enthusiasm about Black, but I think the Brewers are still in position to be a competitive team in 2024, and given that, I want to see them aiming a little higher at third this month.

    10 minutes ago, Playing Catch said:

    IIRC, it has been suggested this number could be off by as many as 4 inches.

    I have a saying: the farther they are from town, the harder they're throwing. 

    We're always going to hear hype and "yeah, but" when there's anything to worry about with a player the organization wants people excited about. Maybe Black is actually 6-foot-1 or something. And being 5-foot-10 wouldn't disqualify him from playing first (although the lack of power, itself, should for me). But I dunno. I'm gonna call the official record at least as reliable as rumors from the farm until a guy actually shows up and stands next to Willy Adames or whoever. 

    3 hours ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    Bellinger exceeds his expected numbers by hitting everything in the air, and especially in the air to the pull field. Black hits it on the ground. 

    In a very small AAA sample yes he did although that was largely from like a 65% GB rate in his first month in AAA. In AA he had a 37% GB-rate and 43% FB-rate with a 41% pull rate which is pretty comparable to Bellinger's 2023 of 36% GB-rate, 43% FB-rate, 44% pull rate.

    39 minutes ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    I have a saying: the farther they are from town, the harder they're throwing. 

    We're always going to hear hype and "yeah, but" when there's anything to worry about with a player the organization wants people excited about. Maybe Black is actually 6-foot-1 or something. And being 5-foot-10 wouldn't disqualify him from playing first (although the lack of power, itself, should for me). But I dunno. I'm gonna call the official record at least as reliable as rumors from the farm until a guy actually shows up and stands next to Willy Adames or whoever. 

    I mean Black was listed as 6'2 when he was drafted and was listed at 6' and 6'1 until last season where it was moved to 5'10. We've posted pictures of him standing next to people who were 6' and he's the same height as them.

    2 hours ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    I'm not saying he can't be a good first baseman, but dude is 5-foot-10. I dunno. I think he might be an outfielder, long-term. 

    I hear you on not spending big on a one-year deal, but there are star-caliber players available on a long-term basis. Isaac Paredes. Maybe Matt Chapman, if we're feeling spendy. I don't mean to totally drown enthusiasm about Black, but I think the Brewers are still in position to be a competitive team in 2024, and given that, I want to see them aiming a little higher at third this month.

    Agree, but if Black has the hot bat in spring training and then early at Triple A it would be logical to bring him up.  Maybe he can stick at 2nd.  The big thing here is the Brewers need to land on their approach.  We need to cover 3rd, we need to cover 1st, we need to add some power, we need to make a decision on Adames and Burnes.  This all has to come together relatively soon.

    No doubt, they have a direction in mind and we are about to see it come to fruition. Personally if they can get heavy deals for Adames and Burnes I believe now is the time to move them.  If not, start the year with them but we must get value for them at some point.

    55 minutes ago, Playing Catch said:

    IIRC, it has been suggested this number could be off by as many as 4 inches.

    He must have shrunk 4 inches since he was drafted - he was listed at 6'2" then...truth is probably somewhere in between, which is just fine for a doubles machine that can fly no matter what position he plays.

    Really hoping Black is in the Brewers' plans at 3B for 2024 - maybe not opening day, but not long after that if he's hitting in Nashville.  Guys with that kind of speed shouldn't be striving for hitting the ball in the air constantly - aim for line drives over flyballs, make solid contact, and get on base.  That .428 OBP clip in in ~40 AAA games or the 0.417 overall OBP between AA and AAA for Black last season looks pretty darn good - and over both Frelick's and Turang's 2022 minor league production.

    • Like 1
    1 minute ago, Michael Trzinski said:

    Kinda funny how he is rated so high and here we all are cutting him down...lol

    The whole reason his prospect status exploded this year was because he started elevating the ball which is why it's funny Matthew didn't even mention the larger AA sample where he was elevating the ball and just said he still smashed the ball on the ground because of a 2 month sample in AAA where he was downright awful in the first month. He had a negative LA at the end of August if I remember correctly.

    • Like 2
    25 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

    The whole reason his prospect status exploded this year was because he started elevating the ball which is why it's funny Matthew didn't even mention the larger AA sample where he was elevating the ball and just said he still smashed the ball on the ground because of a 2 month sample in AAA where he was downright awful in the first month. He had a negative LA at the end of August if I remember correctly.

    Because it all still happened. Haha. As I read his career and watch his tape, I think the Double A fly ball rate was the blip, driven partially by that pre-tacked ball that had extra carry and boosted fly-ball rates for lots of people in the first half. Again: not making a definitive pronouncement on him here. But I think we need to be talking more about this as a pitfall for him and a reason not to leave themselves overly reliant on him. REALLY good role player, especially if he figures out the defense. I have a lot of concerns if he ends up batting second or fifth or something on a regular basis.

    3 minutes ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    Because it all still happened. Haha. As I read his career and watch his tape, I think the Double A fly ball rate was the blip, driven partially by that pre-tacked ball that had extra carry and boosted fly-ball rates for lots of people in the first half. Again: not making a definitive pronouncement on him here. But I think we need to be talking more about this as a pitfall for him and a reason not to leave themselves overly reliant on him. REALLY good role player, especially if he figures out the defense. I have a lot of concerns if he ends up batting second or fifth or something on a regular basis.

    Just because you think it's a blip doesn't mean you can just outright ignore it and extrapolate the AAA numbers as if they were full season numbers.

    • Love 2
    23 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

    Just because you think it's a blip doesn't mean you can just outright ignore it and extrapolate the AAA numbers as if they were full season numbers.

    Yeah, I've been reluctant about the Cubs fan stuff, but this is getting ridiculous. 

    • Like 1
    16 minutes ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    Because it all still happened. Haha. As I read his career and watch his tape, I think the Double A fly ball rate was the blip, driven partially by that pre-tacked ball that had extra carry and boosted fly-ball rates for lots of people in the first half. Again: not making a definitive pronouncement on him here. But I think we need to be talking more about this as a pitfall for him and a reason not to leave themselves overly reliant on him. REALLY good role player, especially if he figures out the defense. I have a lot of concerns if he ends up batting second or fifth or something on a regular basis.

    I personally have relatively few concerns about a guy with a career .415 minor league OBP and plus speed hitting 2nd in the order. 

    • Like 1
    26 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

    I personally have relatively few concerns about a guy with a career .415 minor league OBP and plus speed hitting 2nd in the order. 

    In 2022, Esteury Ruiz had a .447 OBP in the upper minors. Miguel Vargas had a .411. That's two examples plucked from one very recent season off the top of my head.

    You guys can keep thinking I'm secretly here just to talk down all things Brewers, but we're at almost a year together and I would think you'd have seen enough to start letting that paranoia go. Again: Black might be good! I'm just trying to have what I think is an awfully relevant conversation about the sources of risk and uncertainty around him. I have a piece about Ben Brown's fastball problem going live at NSBB tomorrow, in case you're worried that I never do the same with Cubs prospects. This is ball talk, man. It shouldn't be pollyanna all the time. That's boring.

    • Like 1
    • Love 1

    I'm not ripping on you, Matt. Lot of us have high expectations for Tyler and I think maybe (for me anyway) some of us are disappointed that he might not be the all-star that his potential seems to be guiding him toward. Time will tell!

    5 hours ago, Matthew Trueblood said:

    Bellinger exceeds his expected numbers by hitting everything in the air, and especially in the air to the pull field. Black hits it on the ground. So, that comparison doesn't work. It's Bellinger who is an exception to the rule (although, as Brock said, I have concerns about his long-term future, even then), and Black doesn't do what he and others do to become those exceptions.

    I think that line you list is a reasonable projection for next year, and I love a solid OBP guy, too... but with below-average defense, is that really helping? I don't think so. It's not useless, but I feel like the Crew needs more.

    35.8% GB, 43.4% FB rate last year for Bellinger, 43.6% pull side.

    Black in AA last year(where he got most of his ABs);

    37.0% GB 43.2% FB with 40.8% pull side(his pull side was actually higher in AAA at 41.7%).


    Not that I think anyone's expecting him to match Bellinger's power number of hit 47 HRs in ANY year, but you're taking 142 ABs...after a late-season promotion to AAA. 
     

    So this just seems a bit silly. ANY hope for power from a guy who we don't expect a ton of power from(I think 15-20 is pretty reasonable) is pretty much gone because of a small sample size in AAA while ignoring AA? Just seems like a questionable narrative. 

    • Like 1
    6 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

    I don't find this to be a compelling rebuttal because I see huge red flags with Bellinger's 2023, too.

    I'm somewhat down on Black because his batted ball data worries me. But mostly, it's that batted ball data coupled with his defensive limitations. If he was an average or above-average fielder - which he might have a chance to become in time - killing worms and legging it out could be a pretty valuable player.

    But in his current incarnation, I have more than a little concern about his viability as an MLB everyday player.

    I don't find 142 ABs in AAA where he progressively got better to be that compelling. 

    2 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

    In a very small AAA sample yes he did although that was largely from like a 65% GB rate in his first month in AAA. In AA he had a 37% GB-rate and 43% FB-rate with a 41% pull rate which is pretty comparable to Bellinger's 2023 of 36% GB-rate, 43% FB-rate, 44% pull rate.

    Ahh...again, should have scrolled down instead of going straight to the notifications.




    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an account

    Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

    Register a new account

    Sign in

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...