MJLiverock

I completly agree with Bill Hall Allstar's post. The return on Fielder in the offseason isn't going to be any better and isn't going to make this team a playoff team. Logan was also very similar to my thinking in that if everything goes right and I mean every single thing with that team it could win 85 games- still not enough to make the playoffs. I still don't get why the Gia ts would trade Bumgarner for one playoff run with Fielder in the offseason instead now for 2 runs.

I agree the sandwich pick could turn out just fine, there are no gurantees in how a pick pans out in either direction, good or bad. I was just thinking back to all the hype and hope for the picks for Sabathia and Sheets and the team ended up with much less than anticipated. I could easily see some big market team with money to burn like the Cubs, Mets, Orioles, Mariners, etc. being bad enough to have that protected first rounder and but having the money or will to spend the money to sign Prince. Getting a second rounder instead of a first rounder could be 30 or more spots lower in the draft order which may be a big drop in talent level. My line of thinking is sort of against the just enjoy Prince's bat for another season and take the picks. That next season is most likely just going to be another mediocre 80 win team since the rotation will still be pretty bad and the high risk of the picks panning out or my even worse case scenario of not getting even a first rounder for Prince. Even getting just a Kentrail Davis would be pretty disheartening for a hitter of Prince's caliber just so the team could be a middle of the pack non contender for another year. The only way to propel this team forward is to make sure that the first wave of talent is sqandered and not turned into more talent, even if they may take a year or two to arrive. Getting picks for Hart wouldn't bother me as much as losing Fielder for picks because I wouldn't have the feeling of we had one of the better hitters in the league and all we got was this t-shirt feeling. I just don't see how this team is going to be any better than the 80 wins most people thought this year's team was capable of if the same players are brought back. Bringing up Butler, Rivas, Rogers, etc. are not big difference makers, especially in the short run. A 2011 rotation of Gallardo, Wolf, Butler, Rivas, Parra/Rogers isn't materially better than Gallardo, Wolf, Bush, Narveson/Davis, Parra. Parra has not been good in his extended starting audtion this year, Butler is another 4/5 guy and Rivas will be in his first year. Rogers reminds me of Parra, good stuff but questionable command and stamina/durability for his first year starting in the majors.

At the very minimum 2015-2016. 2012 drafted. 2013 A or A+ ball. 2014 AA. 2015 AAA. That is a pretty quick passage through the minors. That is the track Lawire is on right now. There is also the chance Prince signs with a team with a protected first rounder leaving the Brewers with nothing more than a sandwich pick. Holding on to Prince for picks could end up with the Brewers getting nothing more than Evan Frederickson for an elite hitter. That is a big gamble with poor risk reward vs. Trading for guys who have already produced in the minors. Hart for picks doesn't seem as big a gamble as getting just a weak sandwich pick for a hitter of Prince's caliber.

Would you rather be paying $15million or so to Wolf and Hawkins for the next couple years or Oswalt? That is why I hate paying millions for middling production when cheaper similar results can be found in house. Instead of paying a bunch of bullpen and back of the rotation guys $5mm to $7mm that money could be spent getting better than average players instead of stockpiling mediocrity.

Or on the other side of the coin there are always comments about how hard it is to aquire good pitchers and how no one wants to trade them unless it is for the moon or that the only option is signed aged free agents, yet year after year guys get moved around and people complain that the team didn't get enough for them. I dont' know that either of these guys would have agreed to a Milwaukee trade (there was a thread on that around here for a while - does Milwaukee have to overpay and is there a bias against coming to Milwaukee, etc.) I would ask Doug which is it? We hear teams don't want to trade good prospects, teams don't want to trade good ML pitchers. Teams are getting deals done and the Brewers have been in the position to trade ML players for prospects and prospects for proven ML pitchers over the last couple years but haven't done much and tend to say there are no deals to be made or no one is willing.

I just pray they don't hire him to be in the broadcast booth for the playoffs again. His voice was like finger nails on a chalkboard and his "insight" was miserable. Made me pine for Joe Morgan.

Good thing Macha waited until Cain was sent back down to Nashville to give Hart a day off. Zim Zam avoided.

Well Edmonds is 3/5 with 3 BBs vs. Karstens and Cain is probably hitless in his career vs. Karstens.

Getting plunked for leaning over the plate is one thing, Weeks gets a fair share of those. The Braves throwing one over Fielder's head and then drilling him in the upper middle of the back was uncalled for and bush league. I'll still disagree that the whole Yost/LaRussa thing years ago mattered. The Brewers hit Pujols at a time in the game when they probably would have intentionally walked him anyway. The fact that the Brewers couldn't get anyone out after that was the problem.

Moral victory with Arnett's line today. It is only one start but given how bad he looked in his previous stint in Appleton the line today looks a whole lot better.

Parra has certainly not taken advantage of being put back in the rotation. I have no problem with them using him as a starter because they have to suffer through it to see if there is any hope of his ever being counted on as a starter. This season is pretty much lost and they have to start removing question marks at some point. If they leave him in the rotation for the rest of the year to sink or swim I would be fine with it. His line as a starter for 9 games is 47 IP, 1.83 WHIP, 6.70 ERA, 2.17 K:BB, 9.6K/9, 4.4 BB/9. He still sports that great K rate but that is about it. Even tossing out his last start where he was charged with 10 runs doesn't improve things a whole lot more. He still has a 1.78 WHIP, 5.40 ERA, 9.9K/9, 4.5BB/9. He just gives up too many baserunners lots of hits and walks. His BABIP against is high but in his career it has been high all the way through other than a fluky year in AAA. His strand rate stays right around 70% and he gives up a fair amount of HR's. The only thing I can take from his results is he has the wicked stuff to get the K's but just can't keep from throwing that straight as an arrow pitch over the plate that gets hammered. Frustrating.

I don't know, there is always a good chance Branyan swung hard but missed it completely.

I just hope the Brewers aren't counting a guy like Odorizzi to pitch like a #2 his first year at the big league level. It is pretty rare for a rookie to step in and throw 180+ innings of above average to good production.

I just noticed an email from DirecTV indicating MLB Extra Innings is free from July 15th to July 21st.

How brutal is this team with them in the lineup? I just can't see how hanging on to the same players year after year makes the team any better than what they have been, a middle of the road non contender. I think they may keep Weeks but the other two, Hart and Fielder, are probably gone. Hart is such a wild card, he has teased us with good to great stretches before only to sink back to average at the end of the day. He may just end up being too expensive for his level of production, but I could see the Brewers going Arby with him one last time. Garza is a borderline #2/#3 starter who is under arby for the next 3 seasons where his cost will be going up, which may be the only way the Rays trade him for a year and a half of Fielder. His ceiling is established and the Rays may feel they have better options to spend their money on. It would be an interesting trade as it would definately help the Brewer's staff since Garza is better than anyone outside of Gallardo. Cain is probably pretty similar to Garza, stat wise, although may be helped a bit by playing in SF. He is due $7.3MM next year and $15.3MM in 2012 but the Giants have said they don't want to trade pitching and probably won't during the season.

There is no law that says a team has to drug test and fire or suspend players for that violation. Nor is there a workplace requirement law to do so. My own workplace doesn't test for drugs but says in the policy that if they suspect an employee is under the influence of a drug they can request a test. A positive test means going to rehab and a "strike" against the employee. Nowhere is it required to inform the law of a positive test and I have never heard of a company calling the police and a DA willing to prosecute someone for testing positive for a drug. Even the factory where my dad works only fires people for multiple positive drug tests and they certaily don't inform the police of positive tests. I can't even begin to fathom how HIPAA regulations would apply to positive drugs tests and sharing that information.

My point is that if they intend on hanging on to everyone except some fring players and role players in the bullpen there is no reason to expect improvement. That is my beef with the idea of hanging onto Hart and Fielder until next year. These are the only trade chips (or Weeks) that will bring back any sort of quality. This team isn't a contender with them on the team and there is no one on the immediate horizon to improve the pitching staff enough to make them a contender. I doubt a team parts with a major league ready arm who projects to be more than a 4th 5th starter for Hart alone. Getting yet another back of the rotation guy in Milwaukee doesn't improve the team, they need to jettison a few of them at this point. The payroll savings of no longer paying Hall, Suppan, etc. is nice but the odds of landing a free agent pitcher that makes a big difference and doesn't turn out to be a lodestone contract that everyone hates in 2 years is slim. The team would probably be better off trading Fielder and Hart now, getting more in return for 1.5 years of their service than .5 years and spending their money on a bat in the off season. The team will just as likely end 2011 in that same 75-83 win area but may well be better set up for 2012 if they get a projectable starter or two out of the mess that can start contributing in to the major league club in 2011 and be ready to go the distance for the team in 2012. This will also give guys like Cain and Gamel a chance to get some major league seasoning in prior to being expected to play major roles on a division winning team. The team can hang onto all of these guys until they walk in free agency after 2011 and get comp picks which will be years from helping the team. The team will still not be a contender in 2011 and will likely be really bad in 2012 as all that offensive production leaves town. The young pitching in the Brewers minors won't be pitching 180 quality innings apiece in Milwaukee in 2012, I wouldn't expect guys like Odorizzi and Heckathorn to help in a strong run until 2013 given the time it takes to build up arm strength an typical young pitcher struggles. I think it comes down to realistically looking at the team's chances to be anything more than a middle of the pack team in 2010 and 2011 and what shape the system will be in after that. It may mean taking a step back to take two steps forward. Hanging on to everyone for draft picks or until the team is backed into a corner at the dealine next year won't result in anything more than some avoidance of near term struggles (and still no playoffs) in exchange for being really bad in a couple years vs. admiting they aren't going anywere this year or next and being better set up in 2012 forward.

Then I see no reason to think the same crappy team from 2009 and 2010 will be any better in 2011. Looking for different results from the same group of players doesn't seem all that smart just more treading water at the 75-80 win area.

Seeing Hart flail away at the low and away pitches last night made me shudder in fear that he forgot his succuss at laying off that junk.

I had know idea about "Icing" until I saw this Tosh.0 video a couple weeks ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz80fiKz6Pg&feature=related A friend of mine in the bar industry told me sales of Smirnoff Ice are ridiculous becuase of this stupid trend.

The Brewers weren't a very good team last year, they aren't a very good team this year and if they hang onto to the same team again I would wager they aren't going to be a very good team next year. The 2011 Brewers won't be anymore of a contender than the 2010 Brewers by trotting out the same team. At the end of the 2011 campaign Fielder, Hart and Weeks are all able to walk away as free agents. The only compensation for them will be draft picks which are a more uncertain return than any prospects that could be potentially recieved this year. The Brewers may be able to sign Weeks but he may want out as well. Fielder will be gone and Hart and his agent have been driving a hard bargain as well. I view trading any of them as maximizing their value and limiting risk. None will be worth as much next year and in the end, either trading them this year or next, the Brewers aren't a contender in either case. That doesn't mean trade them for a sack of peanuts or that all three have to go immediately but the front office should realize this team as constructed is not a playoff team. Calling up a few more back of the rotatin guys to fill in inning next year won't change it then either.

Logan, I literally just saw Stubb's BBQ sauce at Copp's in Madison yesterday. I remember it because a guy was pointiing it out to his wife as being his favorite and I thought about how I have always liked the Stubb's Dry Rub. I don't know where you live but there is hope since I have seen it in WI. I have bottle of Saz's Original that I got Piggly Wiggly and it isn't too bad. I like it more than Sweet Baby Ray's. As the Game mentioned, making BBQ sauce isn't too hard, I usually do it for ribs. Try Googling some recipies or check Alton Brown, the Good Eats Guy, from Food Network. I used a reciped of his once to make a sauce for ribs that turned out really well. It was a friend of mine from NC that originally told me to just make my own.

FWIW, Hardy's OPS was .560 before the all star break his rookie year. I'm just willing to give Escobar some time since there really aren't any better options, the team is out of it, and he is part of the future.

This is why we use stats to quantify things. Hardy had an above average year on defense as a rookie. Hardy had a 1.7 WAR in 124 games as a rookie. Escobar is at 0.3 in 76 games. Hardy this year, even though he was hitting poorly, is at least canceling out his crappy offense with his glove. Escobar isn't.I'll freely admit Escobar has struggled, as I said earlier rookies struggle. Even the vaunted JJ Hardy had mental lapses, couldn't hit, made baserunning gaffes, etc. during his rookie year. Point is the Brewers are going nowhere this season and not letting rookies play who have to be part of the future if this team is going to succeed, is just going to leave questions on them in the future. WAR is a very flawed stat anyway since the defensive metrics are overvalued and so badly inconsistent that I don't put a whole lot of faith in them, especially when the talking about the values around 0-1. Escobar has struggled but the point is most rookies do. But if you want to use WAR, Hardy is at 0.7 vs. Escobar at 0.3, hardly worth noting a difference. For sometime I actually thought you must be JJ's brother Logan, the way you and a couple other posters have defended JJ and lambasted Escobar. I liked JJ when he played here but he is gone and this isn't going to be unusual for the Brewers, trading expensive players when replacements are waiting. I look at it this way, if JJ was such a great deal why was the only return on him Carlos Gomez? He gets paid $5.1MM vs. Escobar's $0.4MM, whether Melvin spent that money wisely is another discussion. JJ has only played in 39 games this season so his defensive contribution is missed in nearly half the games anyway, in addition to not hitting at all. If you want to look at the Value Stats (which are greatly flawed as well) Hardy has a value of $2.8MM this year while getting paid $5.1MM. Escobar is at $1.1MM while getting paid $400M. Neither are setting the world on fire but again showing Hardy isn't doing anything the makes me miss him. Hardy or Escobar at SS and the Brewer record is no different this year, especially since Escobar would have to cover nearly half the games anyway. The Brewers have to rely on youngsters at times and the growing pains with them. If Escobar looks like this in 2 years I would be disappointed another prospect flamed out or failed to live up to the hype. What will happen when guys like Gamel and Lawrie or Cain come up and struggle? Unless they are the next Pujols it will happen.

It isn't like Hardy didn't struggle to hit .230 his rookie season. I remember sitting at MP watching Hardy let 2 easy grounders go right under his glove like a little leaguer and thinking I thought his glove was supposed to make up for his bat. Rookies struggle. Escobar isn't the reason the Brewers aren't a playoff team. This revisionist history of Hardy's past, worth to other teams, and performance this year is just not productive or even relevent to the team's struggles. The undercurrent of animosity toward Escobar ever since his call up last year and over valuing/lamenting Hardy has just gotten old in my opinion.