OldSchoolSnapper

That's fine and why Counsell used him the way he did. It just isn't what I would have done and to say the worry about Hader is hindsight just isn't accurate because I literally said all of this before the game. Of course I never expected Hader to be used any differently last night. I just wish it would have happened.

Fair, a lot of it.

I don't even know where you pulled that "rest of the pen is a disaster" thing from. I never said anything even close to that. If you're referring to this "You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true." Then your comprehension needs work. I wasn't saying Guerra would blow it, I was conceding that if he or anyone else did people would be screaming that Player X should have been left in.

Ain't hindsight from me. And sure if it had worked I wouldn't have a reason to be talking about this, but I was pretty adamant about not wanting Hader anywhere near the 9th inning. The division blowage in Colorado was the last warning sign. I mean I think it was actually you that said you didn't hate my idea of bringing Hader out first. Maybe he'd suck then too, but, there is less pressure in the 5th, there is more time to get the runs back, and you have more options if he clearly doesn't have it going. Give the 8th/9th to Pom who had shown more control and better secondary stuff. You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true. But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming." So your take is CC should have brought Hader out in the 5th so he could likely blow the game earlier because he was toast in your eyes, then proceed to lay out other closer options as also being awful with the exception of Pom (who did give them 6 outs with the lead). I guess you wanted to hold onto Pom to use him for innings 7 and 8 assuming he'd be pitching from behind since the rest of the pen is a disaster, Hader included? Not sure anyone is able to follow at this point... Hard to fault CC for going with what got the Brewers to the postseason from a bullpen standpoint - sucks that it didn't work out but taking any other approach to what he tried to do would've been even more reason to question it. Hader has been this team's closer, good and bad, for all of 2019 - to switch it up in a winner take all wild card game because he gave up a 2 out solo shot at Coors Field to tie a game in game 161 after being dominant in September (27K, 3 BB, 2HR, 0.7WHIP) is just beyond kneejerk. The only thought I had to change how the pen was managed last night was that they may have tried using other relief options to get through the 6th before going to Pomeranz - then you could pinch hit his spot in the 7th, use him for innings 7-8 with Hader coming in at the first sign of trouble or given the 9th. No, but continue to dismiss me and talk down to me because I guess that's how people cope with Hader blowing the season around here. My take was to bring Hader in, as I said before the game, as the first guy out, and find him pine as soon as a runner was on because the game was too important for his bad version to show up. You act like it's such an insane idea when they literally did that in the NLCS. It was a good plan, unfortunately they scored one run and JJ was terrible. Again, please stop acting like the Colorado game was the first time Hader looked ugly as a closer this year. There are 14 other home runs the guy gave up in less than 80 innings. A guy with that propensity for home runs is really not who I want pitching against the meat of a very good lineup in a 1-2 run game. At the very least take him out of the game when it's obvious it's not his night, which was very obvious last night. Instead we let it ride like it was May 15th. Quit it with the "hard to follow crap" and the insinuations that I have to be crazy or stupid. I've been totally consistent in how I would've used Hader. The first guy out, HOPING he takes the 5th and 6th - then any combination of matchups until you can get the ball to Pomeranz. If he looks bad, you have to go longer relief, but there were ways to win that game last night even with bad Hader showing up.

Grandal is gone. Pina is probably a 15-20 catcher with regular PT. Pair him with some random guy and split the PT 2/1. Almost everyone's C sucks so just accept it's not going to be Grandal and improve the team elsewhere.

Ain't hindsight from me. And sure if it had worked I wouldn't have a reason to be talking about this, but I was pretty adamant about not wanting Hader anywhere near the 9th inning. The division blowage in Colorado was the last warning sign. I mean I think it was actually you that said you didn't hate my idea of bringing Hader out first. Maybe he'd suck then too, but, there is less pressure in the 5th, there is more time to get the runs back, and you have more options if he clearly doesn't have it going. Give the 8th/9th to Pom who had shown more control and better secondary stuff. You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true. But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."

Brett Favre talks about this exact thing after Super Bowl XXXI in the America's Game special. As Holmgren was giving the championship speech, Favre was in the shower thinking about how empty it felt. He talks about thinking "Is this it?" and realizing there were no more games. Rodgers had a similar thought, I remember reading an interview of him being on the bus right after, leaving the stadium, and thinking to himself "I hope this isn't the only thing I do."

With ya until this. Everyone except Craig Counsell knew JJ was toast.

My dad was about 10 when the '57 Braves won the World Series. He still talks at least twice a year about my grandfather getting corporate tickets to one of the games and taking his older brother instead of him, like I haven't heard the story before. It drives him crazy to this day because my dad was your typical 50s kid baseball fan, ran his own simulations with trading cards etc. and my uncle was a total dork with no interest in sports. My dream has always been the Brewers getting in and getting to take my dad. I was so damn close last year, I can't tell you how much it hurts. I am running out of time. We had a blast at the LDS and NLCS but man, I was so close.

The Brewers have been about as good as you can reasonably hope for about the last 10 years. I accepted a long time ago this team would never win a championship in my lifetime, but I never thought I'd see them make the playoffs 4 times in 2005. I remember sitting in Wrigley at the end of 2007 watching us choke away a game in September as they caught us, turning to my friend and just saying "We're never going to see this team make the playoffs, are we?" It wasn't doom and gloom as much as a genuine feeling we both had. So I still feel like I'm never going to see them win a championship, but just feeling that way doesn't really dictate the direction of the franchise - at all.

What really gets me is someone thought of all that. Like seriously sat down and collected a list of "offensive" idioms and thought up alternatives. Possibly even a group of folks formed a committee to do this. For what? What a gigantic waste of time. These people want to make the world better for animals. Wasting time on crap like this gets a F from me in that effort. George Costanza couldn't find a way to be less productive. They know what they are doing. They know the concept is ridiculous. It's just keeping them in the news, diverting traffic to their website and most likely creating an uptick in donations

When Hader came out shaky I started to really look at his body language and if he was nervous he's one cool customer because he looked totally fine, if not relaxed. It looked like he was smiling before it all got really bad.

That is one thing that mystifies me about last night. It's one game, with a day off if you win, you carried 10 pitchers for it and you have pretty limited activity most of the night. I don't know. I'm just pissed off. I'm sure there were many games this season where I thought whatever pitcher was going to blow it and he didn't, but I woke up feeling that Hader would blow the game if left in the 8/9th. I just did not want him there all day and to see it all play out in literally the exact nightmare scenario I envisioned, and to see Counsell sit on his hands as it did...just blah. And I'm a huge Counsell fan.

If you're honestly telling me that Hader looked good last night I don't know what to say. I don't know that he hit his spot once. This is literally the Jeffress thing all over again, even if he doesn't end up going down that path. Last year the 80% consensus was that the hits were cheap and no one was hitting him "strong." He had absolutely no command of his pitches last night.

You're kinda doing the same thing. Getting a guy to swing at Ball 4 that's way out isn't lucky, but him misfiring yet again and hitting a guy in the wrist is unlucky. IMO people are making way too much of that call, I genuinely think it was probably simultaneously, at least nothing on the video was conclusive enough to expect a reversal. And even IF you get it called back, there is no telling what happens with his next pitch. He was terrible last night. Maybe lucky with a pitch and unlucky with another, but he was awful.

The Badgers will probably be the team that does it since they're the one I couldn't really care less about. I think people are a bit high on the Packers but they're at least trending right finally, at least maybe, I think. Hard to see the Bucks not winning the East. But this is Wisconsin we're talking about.

The Grisham-Buckner thing needs to stop. We're talking about the bases loaded with Hader doing a Jose Capellan impersonation, and a ball that was already a hit. And we're comparing it to a weak grounder dribbling through a 1B's legs with the World Series on the line. It's an awful comparison. In the best-case scenario Grisham fields it cleanly and it's 3-3.

He hasn't, yet, with the exception of this week, which was all too Jeffress-like, right down to the excuses people are using for his poor performance. But I won't deny he's a better talent than every previous Brewers flameout. He's most comparable to Knebel who was a blue chip guy and figured it out.

My memory of the 8th is fuzzy, but if we're going to talk about how unlucky Hader was, he was pretty damn lucky to have that opening sequence, because he was absolutely all over the place last night, even on the Ks, and the first guy (I think, again, fuzzy) swung at a ball 4 that wasn't even close. I keep seeing people bring up the HBP, not here, but other places...but assuming that hitter is retired if that's called back is a pretty big leap by how that inning/his control were going. I dunno. My stance on Hader before the game even started was to yank him if he let anyone on. Let someone else blow the game if you have to. The course of events with him out there was just way too predictable, especially with how god awful his location was - it should have made that decision easy.

Thinking something is going to happen and wanting what's best for the team aren't mutually exclusive. I would like Grandal to come back for the team's sake but it's not going to happen. I would like to see 2018 Josh Hader but I've seen this movie about seven times now. The only guy I can recall that ever looked like garbage and then got productive again was Knebel.

Counsell manages pitching great, just didn't last night, which really makes it suck that much more.

This is how it starts. With each one of them. Every time. I'll say this about Hader, at 25 it's still entirely possible he develops his repertoire, which he better, because being "on" - most of the time - with one pitch, is not enough to last a career.

No, because he'll most definitely blow his share of saves regardless. I said June/July. When the excuses for spring rust and figuring things out run dry, like it does with pretty much every beloved Brewers reliever. When his ERA has ballooned to 4.76. He should get some time, but I'm guessing that's about how long it will take for most people to admit there's actually something wrong and it's not just bad luck. I was half kidding about being "obnoxious." But after about 10 people have jumped on me for saying Hader played like trash this week, has a HR/control problem and is on a troubling path very similar to his predecessors, yes, I absolutely will be bringing this thread up if it happens, just like all 10 of those people will be giving me hell if he's an All-Star again.

I don't know what has to do with anything but explore the Internet a bit you will find a lot of people saying stuff like Grisham blew it, which is just a bunch of nonsense when your all-star reliever loads the bases and gives up a hit that leads to dude even fielding the ball. Not like if he picks it up the Brewers win either. I couldn't care less about people agreeing with my "take." But if we're in June/July and dealing with Hader's meltdown expect me to be very obnoxious.

No one is giving Hader a pass. No one at all. That is a made-up narrative. That just isn't true. There are a lot of people pretending Grisham caused this.