HiAndTight

So you're willing to assume that Cincy isn't picking up any money because you have seen no suggestion that's the case despite the fact that all we've heard is we're getting Broxton, they get two PTBNL, yet you're also going to assume that the players we traded are good prospects as well? As far as I'm concerned, a RH'ed reliever was an absolute must if we had any chance to win big games. With all our lefties we can let RR do his TLR imitation and play the R/L matchup to death. So paying a guy 9 million next year when he was probably worth 6 really isn't the worst thing in the world to me if it helps them get to and do some damage in the playoffs.

And why would we ignore that? It was my point. jerichoholicninja said the Rockies had no offense outside of those 4 players. I was suggesting that's akin to saying the Brewers have no offense outside of the aforementioned players. Just taking the 4 most well known players and dismissing the players who don't get as much hype. Corey Dickerson OPS+ of 142 Drew Stubbs OPS+ of 113 Rosario OPS+ of 107 with 49 HR's the last two years. So...lets not ignore anything and lets try and quote people in context if you're going to reply with a snide comment when you completely missed my point. By the way; AGAIN, Mornreau's numbers are not a result of playing at Coors. Road splits-.313/.362/.481/.843 143 OPS+ Home splits-310/.345/.500/.845 135 OPS+ Gennett-.300/.333/.463/.796 126 OPS+ vs right handers alone. If you gave him another 100-125 AB's vs lefties when he's sporting a .267 OPS vs lefties and a -25 and -24 OPS vs them the last two years. So they're quite a ways off from Morneau. Not that it means anything. I love Gennett. Loved when they drafted and got him to sign and I think he's going to play here for a long time. But my point was saying the Rockies have no offense outside of 4 people is just flat out wrong. They're loaded on offense. Trading Morenau may have been wise, but you have to consider how the best player in the NL feels about it, and Tulo has been pretty vocal about his desire to see a competitive team. Morneau helps them try to achieve that in '15.

It's a horrible move before knowing exactly what we gave up and how much of his salary we'll be taking on? For a seasoned late inning reliever who can still throw 94-95 and has an ERA under 2.00 despite playing in Cincy half the time. I think that's a bit of a rush to judgement. Attanasio said they had put in waiver claims on 25 guys a couple weeks ago and that everyone was trying to add BP arms. We added a pretty good one. We desperately needed another right handed reliever. We have three good left handed relievers, but not one proven right handed reliever. I do think Papelbon would have made more sense, but obviously there was some stumbling block to that trade.

31 IP now and down to a 1.74 ERA, whip still at 1.00. Just as effective vs lefties as righties. Hopefully we'll watch him pitch to Monte Harrison and company down the road.

That's the most pleasant surprise to me of all the young guys. I thought he was supposed to be the roughest around the edges, yet his SB percentage tells me he's got very good instincts and his eye at the plate suggests he's far more advanced than many thought.

Jungman was a pretty big strikeout pitcher at Texas. I believe he struck out more than one per inning all 3 years. He also had that big 96-97 MPH fastball that apparently is closer to 90-92 now.

Yeah, he is doing OK. But prior to the suspension/injury, he wasn't just OK, or good, he was great. It also causes a great deal of pain when he gets jammed. Everyone who's played baseball has felt that when playing early in spring with metal bats or in fall leagues with wood bats. But apparently it's exponentially worse with his thumb, which apparently makes him tentative when it comes to pitches inside. If he goes after an inside fastball and gets jammed, it's supposed to be extremely painful. It is really impressive how good he has been given that he's moved off the plate and has done very little with fastballs middle in, normally where powers hitters really make their money. Still, I think if we're going to see the guy who looked like one of the top 3-5 hitters in the game, he needs to bite the bullet, have surgery, and hopefully come back strong.

The only teams he would have been blocked from would have been Washington and LA (and the whole AL). They're both fine at first. It's not surprising that Doug made a claim and it's not surprising a deal wasn't worked out. The Rockies think they can win next year despite being the 3rd best team in their own division. Sure, a healthy Tulo and CarGo make them somewhat of contenders but they have no pitching and no offense outside of those 3 and Arrenado. They didn't want to trade Jorge de la Rosa who's a FA after this year and Brett Anderson who doesn't know how to stay healthy and is owed a bit of money. They're right up there with the Phillies as far as clubs who have no clue what they're doing. That's four pretty good offensive players. You could say the same thing about the Brewers. They have no offense outside of Luc, Aram, Braun and Gomez. You're leaving out Charlie Blackmon who has a OPS around .950(Coors inflated, but still has a .823 OPS on the road), Drew Stubbs seems to have turned a corner with a BA near .300, Wilin Rosario his 49 HR's and put up an OPS of .820 at ages 23 and 24(2012,'13) before struggling this year, Cuddeyer has said he wants to return next year, the same guy who hit .331 last year in winning a batting title(he's hit .331 this year as well though he's missed most of the year). So they have a loaded offense. They're obviously lacking on the mound, but they have talent. They have two top 20-25 prospects who should be ready next year, and they have said they plan on being aggressive in free agency this winter with one of the most talented groups of pitchers we've seen in a while. There have been rumors they're going to target Max Scherzer. All that considered, plus Tulo being pretty vocal about his frustration, it's pretty easy to see why the Rockies would want to keep their assets for next year. They have a great offense when healthy, and if they can add a guy like Scherzer, they could trot out a rotation of Max Scherzer, JDRL, Chacin, youngsters like Jon Gray and Eddie Butler. Now they constantly have injury problems, but if they could stay healthy, there is absolutely no reason they can't contend for the playoffs next year.

Again, what makes you think Napoli is diminishing? I understand that you believe the money could be best spent elsewhere, but Napoli is still a very productive player. His hip hasn't caused him any problems yet(aside from moving him out from behind home plate as a precautionary move for his career). He's pretty much the same offensive player.

I think he's clearly established his value has risen significantly.

Interesting read overall. Some of the things that may be the most interesting are where we assign players next year. Melvin I know suggested that Lara may be advanced enough to skip the DSL and I wonder if they might start Mederios in Appleton.

In the playoffs you don't worry about usage. You may very well have Jimmy Nelson coming in throwing 95-96 and pitching two innings, or you might bring Duke into the game in the 6th inning depending on matchups. I've slowly gotten a little more confident about a potential post-season series. We still SHOULDN'T win vs of the other playoff staffs, but we have guys who can at least potentially matchup with other teams top pitchers.

That's a convenient way of framing it. If you break his ISO out year-by-year, then it's clear that he's had down years in the past with even lower ISO than in 2014. ISO 2007: .310 (492 PA) 2008: .268 2009: .231 2010: .197 2011: .265 2012: .276 2013: .200 (253 PA) 2014: .209 In your splits, the first number if brought up by Braun's insane 2007 season, and the second number is brought down by his injuries in 2013-14. But going forward (beyond this season) I see no reason not to expect his ISO to bounce around his career mark of .247 I don't think it's convenient I think it's just straight forward and clearly illustrates when Braun started to decline. And the reason to not expect his ISO to bounce around his career mark is injuries. You write off the past two years to injuries, but the fact is he may deal with his thumb injury for the rest of his career, and he's going to be 31. I don't see any reason right now to expect his ISO to match his prime-healthy(and frankly PED aided) seasons. I do hope he has surgery, that it works out as well, and he can put up a couple more big seasons, but at this point he's over 100 points below his career OPS, his BA is down about 35 points and his power is obviously zapped. So surgery seems worth the risk at this point.

Throwing..... But I STILL don't see how this is even relevant. Does anyone really believe that Corey Hart could have been a good defensive 3rd basemen? Or even guys like Texiera, Howard, Morenau. Does anyone think they could play 3rd base? Playing 3rd has almost nothing to do with him playing first. Two entirely different positions. You get far fewer GB's hit at you hard and you have to make about 1/10th the amount of throws, which was what Braun struggled with primarily. That's a simple rule you learn from an early age on as a 3rd basemen. You go after every ball you can get to. Ramirez has done the same thing to Segura a couple times this year including vs the Blue Jays. Segura was set to field the ball, his momentum was moving in the right direction and it would have been an easy play, and Ramirez cut him off and fielded the ball while drifting towards RF. I don't know how Braun made other people worse defensively however. Not even sure how that's possible in baseball.

Agreed. There is a difference between, "he's still a really good player even with the injury," and "his power is fine." If his power was fine, he wouldn't be missing so many mistakes on the inner half. If his power was fine, he wouldn't have moved even further off the plate(he already stands father off the plate than anyone I've seen). If his power was fine, he'd.....be better. Ryan Braun doesn't even think his power is fine. We're lucky he's a great player so that when he's not healthy he's still a good player...but I still want that great player back, and if that means he has surgery right after this season and doesn't come back until next June, so be it. I just hope he can get it fixed.

That's not the case. There are several different surgeries he could have. Simply removing the nerve causing him issues is the quickest fix, but not having feeling in your right thumb is a pretty significant sacrifice. I've had two surgeries on my thumb and have nerve damage and it's really unpleasant. You can do everything, but the lack of feeling is really hard to describe. It'd rather have pain in it at times than not have feeling. Another surgery to try to fix it could end up making it significantly worse. But the third option could fix the problem. The problem is that could keep him out for a long time, 6-9 months. I'm guessing that's the route he goes this off-season in order to try and get healthy, but who knows. As for why he's not pulling the ball, according to him, the thumb has made him tentative. It's not that he can't because of the thumb or oblique, it's because when he gets jammed it's extremely painful. It's psychological as much as physical for him(again, that's according to comments I've heard him make). But I know it stings a little to get jammed normally, I can only imagine how much it'd hurt with a bad thumb.

I really believe if the Brewers have any designs on making and then doing something in the playoffs, they need to bit the bullet and work out a trade with Philly for Papelbon if at all possible. Kintzler just hasn't regained the form he showed last year, Jeffress looks like he has a nice future, but I don't trust him just yet. His slider isn't close to where it needs to be. We're one really good right hander away from having a really good bullpen. Adding a really good power right hander allows us to matchup in the 6th/7th with Jeffress/Gorz, 7th/8th with Papelbon/Smith/Fiers or Nelson/Duke and then K-rod as the closer. And if we're going to pay K-rod 8/9 million to close next year, aren't we better off paying Papelbon 13 million to do so and getting his services this year as well? Maybe getting Philly to kick in 2-3 million by adding a better package. As for his vesting option, we could always work around that without it being obvious. He's had really good seasons in which he hasn't finished 55 games before. Maybe you don't bring him in a game in which he gets up, we score a run or two and take a 4 run lead and just put him in save opportunities. Just seems like as close as we are, he could take our one weakness and turn it into a legitimate strength.

Really? Theoretically sure, but would he be ready to just step in and start? They can stretch him out in spring training, but without regular extended work, he's not going to be able to stay stretched out and they can't just send him down. Long men just aren't used that much. Besides based on what we've seen of him so far this year, you going to stash this guy in your pen? Seriously? Yes really. It's not theoretical. He's done it, so saying he can pitch out of the pen is not an abstract idea. It's a fact. He CAN pitch out of the pen. And if someone gets hurt and has to move back into the starting rotation, then we can start that process. He won't be able to go from 1 inning to 100 pitches, but teams regularly move relievers into the rotation. He could start out with a 70 pitch limit, and after 4-5 starts work his way back up. And the pitchers you want to use as depth could be used in the pen to bridge the gap in the meantime. And based on what we've seen out of him this year? Yeah, he's been on a really nice run. He's done this before and then came back to Earth and the the following season was awful. If you really want to play it safe, keep all the starters going into spring. If they all come out of Arizona healthy, then make the best deal you can for Lohse. Next year the depth has to come from guys like Jungmann, Pena, Cravy, etc. Thornburg will have an option and he could start the year starting too at AAA assuming he's healthy. One or two of those guys figures to be ready when needed. Another depth move would be to add a non-roster veteran (maybe even Estrada after he's non-tendered), who could be stashed at AAA with an out clause at some point. Point is they could deal a guy like Lohse for something of need, and still be able to build a fairly deep staff. Ariel Pena? Jungman? Cravy is a soft tossing lefty who's never thrown more than 90 innings. He's the type who seems to excel in AA vs aggressive hitters, but I really question his ability to be able to step into a big league rotation and thrive in a playoff race. Either way, I was responding to your assertion that we simply don't have room to "store," all the pitching we've acquired. We're far from that being a problem in my mind. Lets say we traded Gallardo and found ourselves in the same situation we're in right now. With Estrada presumably gone, Gallardo traded, Lohse banged up and Garza on the DL, we'd have Peralta, Nelson and Fiers healthy and then we'd be hoping that Pena could for the first time find the command to be a servicable starter, Hellweg could come back...and do the same, or other potential back of the rotation type starters could get us through a month long stretch? And this is assuming that we don't lose anyone for more than a month. There is also the fact that K-Rod, Gorz, and Duke are free agents, Henderson has shoulder problems and who knows if he's ever going to return to form, Thornburg's "forearm," injury has turned into an issue with his ulnar ligament and he's a question mark. So if we trade Gallardo, we're going to need to put some money back into that pen, and find another veteran who can start for us, not because we don't have any place to store the one extra starter we have.

Not really. He's got a finger issue that cost him 15 days on the DL at the end of May, but that's about it. He's still very productive at 1st base and is having as good, if not a better year than last year. Plus he's walking about 16 pct of the time. And his hip injury really isn't that big of a deal. It's not only very common(the Packers failed Favre for it before Ron Wolf went down and told the Doctors to pass him) but as someone who has it, you can go a long time without experiencing symptoms which is the case with him. He didn't know about that he even had avascular necrosisn in his hip. He probably could have continued catching, but that would have sped up the process.

Right, but he's saying he wants to keep Gallardo on next years team and IF things don't go well, then maybe you trade him at the deadline so you can get something for him. And I don't know that this off-season will be his peak value. It's a fluid situation. A team may be desperate for a start and with all the teams that find themselves in contention there are far fewer sellers with the additional wild card than in years past. So a team going into the season with some young starters may not give up as much for Gallardo in the off-season before injuries as they might when they find themselves with a pitcher or two done for the year while they're in contention.

I doubt the Brewers care if it takes 6 years or 3. They spent 3 million on the hope that he'd be an impact player down the road. Looks like he'll start in AZ next year, but the rest will depend on his own progression. If they rush him up and he struggles for 2-3 years, it'll cost them a lot more than 3 million.

Right, but we're not there yet. Fiers can pitch out of the pen. With Lohse and Yo under control for just one more year, we really don't have a problem "storing," our depth. Leaving a team that has hopes of contending without a 6th starter better than someone like Taylor Jungman seems unlikely. I also don't see why we'd expect or worry about Lohse having a Wolf like 3rd year other than they were both veterans signed to 3 year ~30 million dollar deals. And if he does walk away after next year with no return, so be it. This team should be very similar next year with our prospects a year older, and hopefully a couple upgrades to the pen.

I agree that its a win win, but the Cavs by no means have those three for the foreseeable future and there is no guarantee that they will be good for a very long time. The James deal is only two years so he could easily leave two again not too far down the road. Not to mention that Love doesnt have to stay around for more than a season. Well there is no guarantee that they ever play together, but if the trade does end up going through, I think most would assume they're going to be together and be together for a long time(at least 5-6 years). Hell, there is no guarantee that the professional sports team in Cleveland he plays for next year isn't the Browns rather than the Cavs. You want a guarantee, put your hand on a hot burner. But some things are pretty likely.....

I'm not sure what you mean here. But the soonest he could be ready? 19-20. Profar, Bogaerts, Beltre...there have been quite a few Latin American players who have come up at those ages. Even American players have come up at those ages in recent years. If he really dominates, a Sept callup at 21 and a full season at 22 would be really optimistic.

I'm not sure his season goes the same way if there's a chance of a promotion, he would have had a legit shot at helping the Brewers next year regardless, I'm not saying grab him from AA, I'm saying those players knew from day 1 just like we did that all of the veterans were moving up first. I don't think this is making a real strong argument. Basically he didn't pitch better because he was worried about the age of the guys on the AAA roster? I think that's an enormous stretch. When they resigned Dillard and assigned him to AA that was basically the final blow promotion wise. How so? For example Toledo had to start a 3rd season at BC because of all the veteran depth that was assigned to AAA and AA to start the season. Except Toledo directly contradicts the point you're making,which was that there was no chance or little chance for promotion as he was promoted to AA very early and threw just 9 innings at BC and struggled at AA. Now that I look I glossed over the AA veteran depth at the start of the season in my other post, but the system was definitely backloaded on veteran arms at the top of the system. I know you were pretty upset about that at the start of the season. You seem to be using this topic, ie, "what relievers could help us," to argue this point again, but there really aren't any AA relievers who could help us this year even according to you.