Thurston Fluff

This assumes that Justice doesn't speak to Brewer insiders...I would imagine he does and I imagine it informed his report... point taken. It still doesn't explain the relationship between good clubhouses and winning or him missing the other, more concrete points, that would have gone further toward the point he was making than the one he did use though. If he didn't do enough research to make those points then I think it fairly safe to assume he didn't do much more work in determining the real clubhouse atmosphere. But tha tis just my own assmuption.

I was just reading up on carcinogens when it comes to grilling and smoking meat. Apparantly an average size steak for example can have the equivelant amount of carcinogens as 15 cigarettes. However the chemical process that occurs to make the carcinogens only occurs with natural charcoal or wood and only when the fat on the meat comes into contact with them. So to keep your meat from being worse for you than half a pack of cigarettes prevent meat from dripping fat on natural coals.

How does he know what a turkey leg feels like? Just curious.

So when a reporter from another city mentions the same thing, all of a sudden everyone circles the wagon's? My problem wasn't so much whether it was true or not as how he obviously didn't put too much effort into the piece. When someone in his position does that it gets some amount of legitimacy that I don't believe it deserved. As a Houston writer he couldn't have possibly seen enough of the Brewers interactions to get a legitimate read on what the clubhouse is really like. Add into it the fact that there are so many other tangible reasons to make the same point and it's pretty clear he didn't put a lot of thought into it. That's fine for fans since nobody really puts much credence into what they say. For a reporter to do that is not all that professional and does make me question him overall. After all he put his name and on it and he is paid to be better than Joe fan isn't he?

While I don't agree with TWR's arguement to be fair I do think when Ned, or any manager for that matter, does something that seems really stupid I usually assume I'm the one missing something. Not because I think he is always right but because anyone who gets that far in any line of work has to be, at the very least, not a complete idiot. So while there are prefences I like vs what others like in a manager when it comes to really stupid moves I just assume I don't have all the information. For instance when a reliever didn't pitch in an obvious situation for him I assume it's because he was tired or has a minor nagging injury that they don't want other teams to know about instead of just thinking Ned is as stupid as the move made him appear.

What agenda does he have? Did you read the article? The entire point of it was that the Cubs don't have to worry because of the problems with the other teams in the division. As I said above, if his "agenda" was to say how the Cubs were going to run away with the division and the Brewers didn't have a chance, there are any number of things he could have cited other than clubhouse chemistry. As I said above if he had used any of the things you used then maybe he would have had more credibility in that particular piece. Since he didn't and went for the much weaker point to back the central point he either doesn't believe what you said are issues for Brewers or he didn't research it well enough to know those points you made. Either way it certainly should be a sign that he didn't really put much thought or time into finding valid reasons for the Brewers not to be a threat to the Cubs.

You're right. He made it up. He had an agenda. It's not like he could claim the Brewers had 3 #5 starters in their rotation. It's not like there are 3 windmills in the usual starting 8. It's not like half the offensive players are underachieving. It's not like he could say Prince Fielder is on pace to hit 40% home runs. Nah, he had to make up something about clubhouse chemistry. If you read the article it is quite obvious that the whole point of the article was that the Cubs had no team that could make a run at them. If he would have used any of the stuff you mentioned then maybe it would have meant he did some amount of research or made valid points. The fact that he had to reach for something as silly as clubhouse chemistry based off his obvious limited time in the Brewers clubhouse tells me that he didn't do much reasearch on the subject. Any of the things you mentioned could have been added to make his point stronger than what he did use. When someone has access to such tangible information and instead of useing it goes for the easy to say, impossible to contradict, "chemistry" angle what does it tell you about the amount of time/research he did on the topic?

Since both have been used in close games late the signifcant factor in their usage isn't wins. It's close games. I don't think the Cubs have played more close games than the Brewers do. Is it that hard to look at their numbers and admit maybe some other manager might, just might, not be any better than Ned in this repsect? You don't even have to admit he's no better than Ned as a manager. Just that some other managers abuse or misuse their best releivers every bit as much as Ned gets accused of it. In that aspect one of the higest paid managers with a pretty good reputation in the league is no better, perhaps even worse, than Ned.

Marmal's career so far 06 - 77 IP, 07 69.1 IP in 59 games. Torres career since 04 92 IP in 94 games, in 05 94.2 over 84 games, in 06 93.1 IP over 94 games. He had much less last eyar but that was the abnormal year so far in his career. So even though Torres is the much more accomplished pitcher with a proven track record he still is on pace to pitch about 6 or so less innings and about 120 less pitches than Marmol. I'd pretty much have to say Ned is using his best pitcher better than Pinella is based on what you provided. Add in the fact that Ned has had to work around more injuries to his relievers than Pinnella has and it make sNed look even smarter by comparison.

Good managers like Pinella don't manage like that. When they have an opportunity to go for a win, they go for it. If they have to burn up an extra reliever to do so, they do it. Pinella is very quickly burning up his best reliever as well. Marmol has played so much it would be a minor miracle if he'll still be capable of lifting his arm in August or September let alone be effective in the stretch run. If you want to give Pinella credit for being a good manager fine but his bullpen management would not be the place to start.

If you want to take McClung at his word of why he's having more success than before it sounds as though it is in part due to the Brewers organization. I'm sure some of that is modesty on his part but things like thorough scouting reports and competent coaching are part of the professionalism this whole organization has now that it didn't before Yost and Melvin arrived. For the most part I'm a believer that the manager and coaches create the setting for success and the players are the ones who determine the outcome. If a player is put in a good environment then, if he works at it, and has the God given ability he will succeed. With McClung I think all of the above are in play. The numbers say the current run for these players simply can't continue. Until someone disproves math I'm going to remain skeptical Does the math tell us players can't improve or learn from their mistakes after a certain age? If so what age is that?

There is a second issue of whether Fielder is worth the money. Based on what we know so far, I personally think the Brewers would be better off trading him in one of the next two offseasons and spending their money elsewhere. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Boras. Good point. His defensive liabilities and high profile might make him a good canidate to trade if we have someone ready to play first. Prince is the kind of guy who could net a lot in return. Especially if he has a year or two left of arby. No matter how you look at it if Prince is the type of player who could command that kind of money the Brewers are better off than if he was only an average salary type of player. Lot better options either way melvin choses to go.

Thankfully the Brewers won every day the Cubs won as well. As hot as the Cubs have been I'm ok with staying within range and waiting for them to stumble. If they don't all the more power to them and we still have the wildcard to work for.

One reason I think we've seen an upturn in player character' is that the F.O. has made it a priority to not take just any ol' jerkwad that can play. We aren't those Brewers anymore. Yost's 'clubhouse attitude' is much more likely an example of the F.O. placing a priority on 'character' than it is that they brought Ned in to make sweeping changes to guys' personalities. I think it's a combination of the two. Ned and Doug communicate well and they don't allow slackers to stay on the team longer than necessary. Perhaps we could come to an agreement that the two together have helped create an environment of accountability. Which would go back to why there is more to Ned's job than we see. I do realize they can't just sit guys like Prince out because he doesn't run out a grounder because doing so would harm the team's success this season. But if someone like Prince doesn't always hustle like Ned likes his status in the organization would change accordingly. Estrada is a perfect example of that. i guess it should be pointed out the front office did bring in Tavares who isn't exactly a choir boy. I think like Ned having to use Estrada last season Doug had to do what was necessary to improve the talent. Even if sometimes it is not ideal. Now, like Melvin said, changing the culture is what he may have accomplished. Changed it from a laughing stock circus to a competitive atmosphere. Now we need someone to take it from competitive to dominating. Ned Yost will never dominate anyone, he is too stubborn and not smart enough. Why not have the guy who took the team this far keep going? He took a team that was 106 loss bad and immediately instilled some professionalism in it. Then, when the talent arrived he started to win more than he lost. At this very moment as I type this he's leading this team to a slightly better record than last year and is in the middle of yet another post season race. If he can keep improving this team at the pace he has been then his past success with this team would indicate he will indeed be capable of taking it from competitive to contender.

Brewers were in Houston - Richard Justice is in Houston. I think he was in the Brewers clubhouse. I've been to Milwaukee when the brewers were in Milwaukee. Is it safe to assume I was in the clubhouse? I don't know if it's any safer to assume a writer for Houston has any more interest in what goes on in the Brewers clubhouse than I do. Other than to take a 5 minute look to find out if said clubhouse is in disarray. It's doubly funny that someone would somehow assume they have any sort of reading what so ever by visiting the vistors clubhouse on thier visti to that city. Maybe he should leave that sort of thing to people with a little more knowledge of the situation. It may have even been better reporting to have the proverbial unnamed sources who are close to the team for such information. Perhaps he could have asked one of his peers who cover the team all the time to get a better idea of what the clubhouse is like.

Come on here, there are plenty of current Brewers that are guilty of this. I guess you must see something that I don't then.

TLB while you are certainly correct we should be able to expect that out of pros that certainly wasn't the case here. Sexon didn't always run to first, Hernadez sat out the season's final series two consecutive years to avoid setting the k record, Sanchez, well don't need to mention his work ethic. When Ned came that did change. Even if the players weren't any good they played hard and always to the end. If not they ended up gone ASAP. As far as Estrada goes I think that had more to do with the options they had than anything. It would have been pretty hard to bench him in the middle of a pennant race and not been rightfully critisized for it. He did do the next best thing though and he was shipped out after one season. I don't think a manager has much impact on hustle or lack thereof On this we'll just have to agree to disagree. itend to thinl it's one of the most significant things a manager does. Way further up the ladder than game maangement IMO. Which is why can agree he isn't the worlds best game manager yet think he's a fine manager overall. Or that Braun missed a sign... there are other examples of Yost throwing his guys under the bus. I've never viewed say a player messed up a play as throwing them under the bus. I think throwing someone under the bus is more like saying they aren't working hard enough to remember the signs or he's not going to trust someone next time becuase he missed a sing last time. If someone askes a question about what happened on the hit and run he simply said Kendall missed the sing. He usually follows those comments up about how that happens everyonce in a while to the best of us and said player is usually so good at that sort of thing and he feels worse about it than anyone else ect.

The reason he's on at 3:13 and not 3:40 as I had hoped, is because he'll be in the Astros clubhouse...as he often is at that time. So, umm, I guess we could take your theory and drain pasta with it. How does him being in the Astros clubhouse put holes in the theory that he may not have ever been in the Brewers clubhouse? If indeed he is in the Astos clubhouse so often it only lends more credence that he has not been in the other clubhouse enough to make the assertion he did. Can't be in two places at once.

Come on, you guys are the ones saying that we shouldn't take Ned's press conferences at face value, so why should we take anything that Melvin has to say about Ned at face value? I don't necessaily take his at face value but he did say some of the things I tried to say much more clearly than I ever have. Some of the things Doug did mention can be taken as true since they are verifiable. Like promoting from within, and to a lesser extent his bringing about some professionalism to the clubhouse. This team does not give up and certianly plays hard to the last out and it has since Yost has come here. I can recall a few occasions where they didn't and those players were not around very long. The other obvious reason there is some amount of merit to what Melvin says is the fact that Ned still has a job. Doug was more or less stating why he thinks Ned has done a good job and why he continues to pull a check. If those statements were being made at a press conference saying they appreciated what Ned brought to the table but felt it was time to go in another direction I'd agree it was bluster. That he said those things when Ned isn't in any danger of losing his job, is 4 game above .500 despite a heavy road schedule, loss of YoGa, Weeks, Gagne, Cappy and Riske, and still positioning itself to make a run at post season, looks to me to be more why he is doing a good job than Doug making excuses.

The problem he had wasn't so much what he said about the Brewers as why he said it. He had an agenda that required the Brewers not to be a threat to the Cubs and he had to reach for something to make that seem plausable. The fact that the only thing he could find was some sort of supposed clubhouse tension seems more to be something he needed to find than something that was actually there. For example if I wanted to claim Prince was never going to play on a winning team I'd take his comments about his anger over his salary and make it seem like it was the reason he isn't playing very well right now. I could then extend that thought all the way to him being selfish and allowing his personal feelings to get in the way of his play and it's negative effects the team as a whole. Thus wiht a littel work I could blame the fact that the Brewers 7 game deficit in the division is his fault. I would of course be neglecting the fact that the Brewers are that far behind because theCubs have been better than advertised, the current home/road splits of the two squads, injuries ect.

The problem Stein is a reporter who has seen this team so little has no way of knowing what the clubhouse is genuinely like. As far as the other players waiting to cash in. I'm sure if everyone of them was willing to give the deal Braun gave the Brewers relative to his value they would already have a contract as well. If contract jealousy is a problem then it's time to get rid of any player who is jealous. There is no team now and never will be any in the future who have all players earning the same money. There is no team now or ever where some are over paid and some underpaid. If a player can't deal with that type of inequity and allow it to infect the team in some way there is no place on any team for them because that will always be the case. It might also be worth noting that every player gets to chose who negotiates his contracts and are part of one of the strongest unions in America. So nay beef they may have with regard to how much they make vs others should be aimed at their representatives not their teammates. Though I'm tend to think nobody on this team is that immature as to be mad at a teammate for getting his.

If you start with an agenda and look for examples to prove your point you may find a player sitting in the corner quiet and brooding yet somehow miss the 24 others laughing and debating where to go together for dinner that night. He seems to have been looking for reasons to believe a team 4 games above .500 isn't gong to be a contender. It appears to me he had no other choice but to manufacture something because the Brewers performance this year has done nothing to indicate the point he wanted to make.

After his perfromance last night I'd be surprised if he would ask to be released. There aren't a lot of teams looking for crap at the major league level at the moment.

To say the Brewers have the talent of an 85 win team is purely subjective. An 83 win team that only marginally upgrades it's talent, if that, then losses one of it's top pitchers is likely to be about an 85 win team the next year don't you think?

the problem with the law of averages is that it means the cubs are incredibly overdue to win the world series as well The Brewers-Mariners world series is going to be sweet.