tmwiese55

Louis, yup, that is a very big problem. Most companies probably need to take weed out of their testing at this point. Someone else mentioned that people get state unemployment on top of the 600 from the feds that we see in the media. if that's the case, yea you'd need a pretty good job to top that. Just saw a WHO report that some data they've gotten on asymptomatic spread isn't looking bad. Concern is that people have been taking a week-ish to show symptoms so if they're out spreading for a week previous it's a big problem. If more data and other reports come in supporting the same thing I think that's a big deal for being able to open things up and live more. That's been the biggest hiccup in things for me, so if this comes through along with testing finally being up to speed I think it's a huge positive. From what I could read this report/data is purely off tracing efforts, so it's not exactly the most science/virology way of figuring. But either way, it could be a very big thing if it holds true. If we could also get some kind of a quick daily at home test done (similar to a thermometer) I think we'd be sitting in a pretty pretty good spot. Note: it still says its happening and everything, but it's just not nearly as potent this way. ETA: Read some more and it's not as ideal as I hoped. They're distinguishing between pre-symptamtic and asymptomatic. I assumed it was a catch all for everything. Seems people are pre-symptomatic still are spreading before showing symptons. But at least the folks who never show symptoms seem to not be spreading much, still generally positive news. Just not as good as I hoped. Seems they're also trying to make the point that truly asymptomatic people are very rare.

I'm generally on the be cautious as a society camp and to take it seriously and everything. And I'm confident there isn't going to be a catastrophic type outbreak. Mostly because even as we start mixing it up a bit again we do have so many other things in place to help now, basically its still at the forefront of many people's minds. I'ts already been about 1.5 months since gradual openings started happening and nothing has gotten crazy, sure maybe some further declines didn't happen that could've or you do see some slight uptick here or there. But nothing looks disastrous. It's not just going to disappear so at some point we'll have to live with its risk like many other things. But of course, we shall see how the next few months go.

I'm no expert on unemployment. But doesn't the relief program pay like 600/wk in unemployment? Which is significantly more than what unemployment was beforehand. So yea you're better off with that than the basic/minimum type level stuff, especially once you factor in not having to work. For truck drivers, not sure where you're located but in WI a big problem is DUI. Also, I'd assume DMV stuff has been shutdown-ish so not easy for someone without a CDL to get one either.

Yes at some point life will continue with this as part of the risk of life like many other things such as: Driving, other illnesses, flying, someone shooting you, etc. Of course we can add in many of the things learned here like keeping space, emphasis on cleanliness, reduction of capacity in confined spaces and others to help minimize. same way we have speed limits to try and limite traffic deaths a bit. The grand question without an easy answer is at what level to kinda restart things. Seems almost everyone would agree with the level it was out there in late March/April wasn't the right level. The actions we did gutted the numbers down a ton. Obviously lots of the country has been on a slow opening path already. I don't see why sports would not be included in the same discussion or why it would be held any different since it's more high profile. There's no clear answer on this and no one is crazy on this if they view it a bit different. As a society overall, my top priority would be schools open in the fall. So I'd be slightly more on the bite the bullet now and gut it even more to have a lower starting point, even if it does end up being a few weeks more than in hindsight was needed. But, with all the other safeguards in place now and testing up to speed there's tons of gray area. And in general things seem to be being done well so far and not creating problems through the country. The big problems back in March (besides the unknowns and high numbers of affected people) of no testing, ppe, and possible risk of overburdening healthcare system are largely gone now. Sports with no fans though shouldn't be too difficult to attempt, not saying something weird won't happen, but why not try. When to have fans and at what capacity is an impossible question to answer with any certainty. Especially as jabronis on the internet. But at some point it will happen while the virus is still around.

Agree. And how quick drafts and FA will happen and have to get done. I don't know if I said in here, but I'm surprised it's going to take until end of July to get this started. Seems like that could've been moved up and reduced football overlap, and of course getting us entertained quicker, haha. I thought this especially since there is now the 8 warm up games as opposed to jumping right to playoffs. But I'm sure they'll have a 'safe than sorry' type view getting things ready.

And then remember the data a page or two back on the excess deaths vs a normal year. I don't recall if that was US specific mentioned in this thread. But I've also seen this data in other countries and it seems clearly a lot of have been missed. For example, I want to say a city like Jakarta (don't hold me to it and this was 4ish weeks ago so numbers/memory could be off) had only reported like 300 deaths but had thousands more deaths than a normal year. Essentially you're seeing similar gaps in data all over the world. However, of course there is simply no way anyone will ever know.

Just re-reading some stuff I missed, but you cannot say this and accuse others of digging in their heels. This was always about the death rate. The whole tagline was that it was a more deadly, more contagious flu. The WHO initially claimed a 4% mortality rate. It was going to kill 2.5-3mm Americans. You can't look at the country now, at 100k (it will be more than that but not 3 million) and act like that wasn't a gross miscalculation and extremely significant. If this was about being getting sick and surviving 99.8% of the time, not nearly as many things close and the fear is 1/50 what it was. If you can't concede this really glaring error and the effect that it had, there is no space to say others are being stubborn. You have a fair take, it's not crazy as deathrate was a thing emphasized due to how it was early on. But again if you dig below, everyone was saying the whole time that the % would be way less than what it was then. Plus, the whole point was hey we don't know, as of now it looks worse, it could be worse, so we should be cautious and figure it out. Literally 0 science/data people ever claimed to know what the deathrate would be back in say March/April. This is not some "gotcha" they were wrong about. All the while yes they were saying as of now the deathreate looks worse, but it's so early we don't know what it'll end up. They said this all clearly at the time yet you're acting like they defrauded everyone. And still, as of now it still does look worse. However, the whole time the number 1 issues was the infection rate due to asymptomatic spread combined with no vaccine and no testing could lead to a big problem and numbers. And it has. Essentially, even if the deathrate like .5%, due to these issues if you let millions and millions be infected the total death number will be really bad. But now these folks have an agenda to undermine so they're jamming it in your head. The folks that you're listening to who claim to be so right were the ones at the time saying this is all bs, there is no cases here. They're now saying "there was so many cases it means the rate is low, so your'e still wrong". Somehow, they're still convinced they're right and will never admit otherwise. And it basic faulty logic to say 'they said X amount, but it only ended up Y amount so they were wrong.' Yea, because we did what we did. If you looked at how those projections are done, they were all "written as if we do nothing" type things. Have to read beyond headlines. This would be the equivalent logic of if I said if you keep smoking you're very likely or greatly increases your chances to get cancer from it. you quit smoking, then say "you're an idiot, see I didn't get cancer". That's how easily every talking point these people are cramming down people's throats are picked apart. I do not wish to argue and have to point it out on anything else. I'll never convince you. you have to get there on your own with an open mind. Please stop buying into them taking things out of context and spinning it to try and convince you it's all made up and the science people are idiots. All this stuff was said at the time and they never claimed they'd get everything 100% correct or that they knew everything about a brand new virus, so latching onto a thing here or there that ends up off does not mean they're wrong about everything. I know it's easy to go down this path with the current state of things and if you look into the psychology of conspiracy theory type stuff I get how it happens. But you're seriously being led astray here by people who've been on the wrong side from the beginning and are dug into it.

Agree that with time it'll come back. I probably could've phrased better to emphasize most worried about when/how long. Just sucks to miss out on a year or two, or however long it takes.

Mentioned a bit above by someone. I'm most worried about overall tourism and travel. That's essentially my favorite thing to do ad probably take 10ish trips a year, and now we don't know how much or when it'll kinda be normal to do again. Granted, it hasn't been bad to save all the money I'd have spent on the 4 trips I've had cancelled since this started but I'd rather be having fun. Also, restaurants and shared kitchens specifically designed only for delivery has been a growing trend in cities for a few years now. This has to have ramped them up big time. I want to say one was on Shark Tank this year and didn't get a deal, probably missed an opportunity there. I know that wasn't specifically what you're talking about in regards to fine dining, just adding to the convo though. I agree with snapper on that, to each their own on how they want to spend money. You might think I'm crazy for spending on 100$ meals a lot, I might say someone else is for spending $400 on a handbag, $200 on shoes, buying a 60K car when the 25K one will do the same thing, thousands on daycare a month, dogs/cats expenses, etc.

My female friends have the exact opposite response. Fair enough. Of course everyone comes from a different view. Any chance they're generally well off financially as opposed to say avg salary nurse/teacher types? I think I would also clarify mine a bit to maybe take out hair, might have overstated there. I think they mean the more niche things like nails, eyelashes, eyebrows, etc. Some are and some aren't better off than nurses/teachers. I suspect the major differences are age (your use of 'girls' while my friends fall into the 'women' category) and race. Hair, in particular, is a big big deal for them. One friend is giving us a a daily countdown in a group chat until her first hair appointment because she thinks she looks like a skunk with a grey strip down the middle of her head. The pictures are pretty funny. ----- Yea the ballpark age slice I'm referencing is upper 20s to mid 30s. So old enough to be full adults with their own jobs, money, bills, etc. The vibe I've gotten is essentially, I'm in debt for this and that, credit card, need a new car. The couple hundred a month spent on this can be used better elsewhere. I can't believe how much some of this stuff costs too, the societal standards that have led women to have to do all this is way out of whack. But like I said, I probably shouldn't have included hair. And we'll see what happens months down the line when this is behind us, it's easy for them to say now but I'd guess many get back to the same routine.

Sounds like they've confirmed today the normal East/West. So we can cross that issue off the list. But yea, I have no idea how this will go. I guess I'm a bit more optimistic than that, in regards to the real playoffs. The 8 games though yea I could see being real bad. But for playoffs one would think the players would be as serious as ever. But yea sure will be weird without fans though. IDK, maybe it's a good thing to eliminate that outside noise and just play, should help a guy like Bledsoe. You'd think it should lead to better officiating at least without them having to play to the crowd

If I had to guess, I'd probably end close to what Stone just said. That they'll come up with something. But i'm more than prepared and view it as a real possibility to have the season cancelled. The most frustrating part is that of all the sport baseball is the least risky one due to being outdoors and not piled on top of each other. Money though of course is always #1. This is a trickle down of no cap system to begin with. All the others have a fixed amount of money to players based on revenue, so it's easy to negotiate from that point and just extrapolate down. MLB is a free for all and a mess, and this is what we're left with. The next CBA they just have to buckle down and get a long term real system in place so that its fair for all teams. The other leagues have given them an easy model, it shouldn't be hard to replicate.

My female friends have the exact opposite response. Fair enough. Of course everyone comes from a different view. Any chance they're generally well off financially as opposed to say avg salary nurse/teacher types? I think I would also clarify mine a bit to maybe take out hair, might have overstated there. I think they mean the more niche things like nails, eyelashes, eyebrows, etc.

Not sure if mentioned yet, don't recall seeing it. But something girls have been telling me that will be big time reduced is nail, hair, eyebrows, etc appointment type stuff. This is making them realize how much money has been wasted on this and that it's not really needed. Sure, for people with a lot of money they'll do it and everyone still will sometimes or special occasions. But say you make a normal 50-60k, you probably don't need to be spending 1-200 a month on this stuff.

Man did I create the outrage over saying i chuckle to myself over something so simple as what I said. I didn’t hurt anybody, I didn’t hurt feelings, I didn’t call anyone a racist, and we have a page and a half? Jesus y’all are wound tight. Do you ever laugh...at anything in life? I’m sorry if I offended but I’ve been quite offended over the reaction to this for 2 months after seeing it clearly wasn’t what we thought it was. So I guess we’re even. My friend, I suggest you look in the mirror. You picked a fight with someone who's point was essentially as simple as "be nice and empathetic, especially to someone who's just trying to help during a tough time". And you're now saying I'm the negative one and attacking me. You are literally arguing against being nice. Again, probably a good time to take a step back and take emotion/frustration and examine the info and sources that you're buying into. No, the problem has always been the infection rate and exponential growth due to asymptomatic spread and no vaccine. It seems you got caught up in the wrong stuff back then, just as you are now. The side you're now saying was so wrong about death rate was the one at the time saying there is way more cases out there if we tested for them (thus the whole time saying the deathrate was much lower than the data indicated back then) while your faction was saying these people are crazy to lockdown with such small numbers of cases. And you're still insisting those people are wrong. It is a fact that a disease spread through perst to person contact will have it's spread slowed by limiting person to person contact. The very person that started the cascade which cost us 40 million jobs is admitting lockdown had little or no effect. It’s right there in the open to see, if we were to believe his (also previously drastically false past predictions), we must also believe him this time...should we not? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8379769/Professor-Lockdown-Neil-Ferguson-admits-greatest-respect-Sweden.html Count me in as well to a pass on the first month. I can see the path to understanding what we did. What is beyond inexcusable and costing people their financial (and in some cases their actual) lives is May, June, July, etc. The 4th of July fireworks....really? The damage we’ve done will take years or a decade for people to crawl out of. Some never will, and some will be dead. This is an extremely serious situation. Keep the unemployment payments flowing and the country will go belly up. Keep businesses locked down and the middle class disappears. All of this for a 0.5% or so death rate HEAVILY skewed toward the elderly? What would the rate truly be if governors such as Cuomo didn’t push sick patients into nursing homes? These particular governors should be arrested, not congratulated. I will not apologize for having perfectly harmless and to myself laughs, as they harm nobody. Im probably laughed at daily myself by people, as is everyone. I’m tired of society always having an opinion of what others think and reprimanding it, and I’m sorry that I probably offended by saying that as well. -------- I made no comment on the economic ramifications or on if other measures could've had similar results. I stated a literal fact. You guys (primarily the other poster) have spent days getting angry at, attacking and arguing with someone over stating a literal fact and for essentially saying "it's a tough time, maybe just be nice to each other". If that doesn't make you think you might be coming at things from a bit of a bad mindset I don't know what will. I urge you guys to take a step back and think from a different mindset. Pretty much every point made by the "this is all overblown" camp is countered with some very simple logic. You're going down a bad path of misinformation. You're not being misled by the science folks (though of course they're gonna be be wrong on some things as they're figuring out on the fly). Also, don't take everything they've said that "might or potentially could happen" or "increases the risk for" to be a statement that it will happen. You're actually being misled by the folks you're listening to that are telling you that you're being misled by the science people (these people want clicks and negativity/conspiracy type fuels it, this is exactly what's wrong with our culture right now). These people have been wrong from the beginning and are still digging in and grasping at anything to cling to being right and discrediting the other side. Taking stuff out of context and spinning it that it proves this is all bs is what's keeping their clicks/ratings up. ETA: also, the talk of how it's fine to snicker at and rip on behind their back. Sure yea not directly affecting anything. But this mindset is what is poison to current societal discourse. It leads to negativity, hate, divisiveness. Leads to the mindset of anyone who disagrees with me is a moron, evil hates america, etc. Imagine someone saying "I won't apologize for making fun of gay people behind their back". Of course, a mask wearer is not the same level or class, I'm not saying that. I'm pointing it out in regards to the psychological trickle down of thinking like that about people different than you.

There still seems to be some rumblings about 1-16. It has not been clarified yet. It makes no sense to me though. There is no Covid caused problem that it is fixing.

Generally agree, though I might not use the term full bore. Seems to make sense that you'd want your main guys to all play and play serious in order to get into game shape again. But, the games are essentially meaningless for the Bucks as they'll have the 1 seed locked in for the East and there is no home court for the Finals. So there isn't a need to go all out so to speak to win the games or push anyone that might risk injury. But you do want to take the games serious and play to win. With Giannis' personality, I doubt that'll be a problem

Man did I create the outrage over saying i chuckle to myself over something so simple as what I said. I didn’t hurt anybody, I didn’t hurt feelings, I didn’t call anyone a racist, and we have a page and a half? Jesus y’all are wound tight. Do you ever laugh...at anything in life? I’m sorry if I offended but I’ve been quite offended over the reaction to this for 2 months after seeing it clearly wasn’t what we thought it was. So I guess we’re even. My friend, I suggest you look in the mirror. You picked a fight with someone who's point was essentially as simple as "be nice and empathetic, especially to someone who's just trying to help during a tough time". And you're now saying I'm the negative one and attacking me. You are literally arguing against being nice. Again, probably a good time to take a step back and take emotion/frustration and examine the info and sources that you're buying into. No, the problem has always been the infection rate and exponential growth due to asymptomatic spread and no vaccine. It seems you got caught up in the wrong stuff back then, just as you are now. The side you're now saying was so wrong about death rate was the one at the time saying there is way more cases out there if we tested for them (thus the whole time saying the deathrate was much lower than the data indicated back then) while your faction was saying these people are crazy to lockdown with such small numbers of cases. And you're still insisting those people are wrong. It is a fact that a disease spread through perst to person contact will have it's spread slowed by limiting person to person contact.

I will not argue with you on whether a communicable disease that is transferred person to person will have a reduction in spread if person to person contact is reduced. You're a good poster overall. If it's true you haven't held the 'this is all overhyped bs' view from the start I suggest taking a step back and taking a breath. You're going down the wrong wormhole of information. I'd guess just too much time on our hands now leads to too much digging. Remember you just picked a fight with someone for essentially saying "dude, maybe we shouldn't make fun of or laugh at people that are just trying to help at a crazy time". Perhaps thats a good point to think maybe one is going down the wrong road.

Sorry, that is exactly what the person was doing in this thread. Also, my comment on the "can't have a conversation" was not related that point on masks. it was made a weekish back on the crazy ideas spewed acting like all this is overblown bs. I also specifically said it was jogging people. Someone saying they laugh at masks does not automatically put them in the 'this is all overblown' type camp. Sooo, who's strawmanning now? It is not debatable that lockdowns helped slow the spread. You are proving every reason why I have avoided this topic. Thanks and good bye.

Think you should go backwards in this thread a bit. I was very wrong. Just not the way you think. I was all for every lockdown. I was scared. You can go to the first few pages to see that. In the face of reality I changed my thoughts. OK. So 100K people have died and that's changed your mind to think it's not a big deal. Okey dokey, if you say so.

------ Thanks for proving my point quite well. Sorry, I consider laughing at someone (implying them to be stupid) to be judging them. ______ Chuckling at someone doing a silly thing implies they're stupid? You're on a straw man roll! That really is quite a reach. People do all kind of things when they're scared, that doesn't make all of them, or any of them, stupid. Let's stick to things I actually say and not your wide interpretations. I'm also confused as to how I "proved your point." You're here saying that "nobody is saying that," yet a week ago, you said that you "can't converse with these people," and just "shake your head and walk away." Please do explain that point proving thing though. It really doesn't sense to me. You've proven that one cannot converse with people so dug in on all this and are determined they're still right no matter what happens. To my quote a week ago, yea that's being proven here too. I made one simple point that frankly shouldn't be arguable. If you're going to laugh at someone, it's probably best to laugh at the ones knowingly increases the odds, not the one just doing his best to help. somehow, you're arguing that point. Also, please continue saying strawman. It's a solid argument. One of the strongest i've seen over the years when you have no real counter.

That was not mentioned on this topic at all. It was about people wearing a mask while outdoors jogging exercising etc. So, essentially you've just stereotyped that a person wearing a mask is now a judgy jerk in this. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I mean, in this specific example in the thread it was a poster doing it to the mask wearer and your first response it to say the mask wearer is actually the judgy one rather than the guy, you know, judging and making fun of the mask wearer. I fully agree anyone freaking out and creating a confrontation are over the line. Whoever posted the youtube video of that example confrontation a page or two back is spot on. Confronting and judging on either side of it helps in no way. Also, I have no idea how you're not seeing a large faction ripping on the hysteria of corona. This is out there, heck essentially an entire faction of the media is dedicated to it. You had mass protest all over the country for it. Or do you not have any ties or interaction with more rural parts of the state? That is essentially all a huge portion of them have been saying since mid February. And of course in today's world no matter what new info presents itself, they'll never admit they've been wrong. My point was essentially, all the guy jogging or going to the grocery store with the mask is doing is being overly cautious with the goal of maybe helping you. And you're ripping him for it. The guys piled into bars screaming Sweet Caroline into each other's faces are actively choosing to increase your risk. I'm not saying they can't live their lives, it's their choice and we're all gonna have to live again at some point. But if one insists on laughing/judging like this poster was doing which one would warrant "laughing at" in terms of their ignorance and stupidity? The one trying to help(however minimally it might be), or the one intentionally increasing the risk(however minimally it might be)? Ok, first off, I wasn't isolating that to this topic. I'm saying in general, in public, the sentiment that's now finally fading, is that anyone questioning this was a loon, a fan of he will not be named, etc. TRUST SCIENCE, FLATTEN THE CURVE. I thought my post spelled that out rather clearly literally using the phrase 'in public' and mentioning social media. That has only recently started to turn. In fact, BF.net is the only place I visit where the dissenting conversation was even allowed to take place. You can't do it anywhere but small pockets on Reddit, Facebook and Twitter are no-gos unless you want to be screamed at, and I live in rural WI, so no, I'm not "turned off" to the rural parts of the state. In my community, it was not taken as seriously, however as soon as you engage any kind of mass media, the world was ending for about 6 weeks. And actually, the premise of what you're saying here is built on a straw man. The poster said they would chuckle at a person in a mask riding a bike down a country road. They did not say it "bothered" them, which is what the replying poster said. Nor did they judge them. They said they'd chuckle. For wearing a mask on a bike ride or jog, not for wearing a mask, which is what you indicated above. You're mish-mashing a bunch of significant distinguishing details there. Last, reconciling "nobody's saying that" with this viewtopic.php?p=1300619#p1300619 is quite hypocritical. The debate over the shutdown stopping spread, and the degree to which it did, is a completely valid one. The data hasn't proven anything in regards to the shutdown's effectiveness. There are a bunch of places that did little to nothing and didn't experience anything differently. ------ Thanks for proving my point quite well. Saw subsequent posts trying to cling to deathrate now to prove you've been right along. This has never been about deathrate, it's about the spread/infection rate thus leading to huge total numbers. It's great to see this argument flip flop from "there is no cases here, what are we doing?!?" to "there was actually so many cases that it's not that bad, see you guys were wrong, this is nothing". No matter what, you're right. Sorry, I consider laughing at someone (implying them to be stupid) to be judging them.

If it were this simple I'd agree but the fact is that a ton of people aren't just doing that, they are actively judging those who choose to live normally and acting like they're completely insane. You can barely dissent from this at all in public, god forbid question it on social media, without people calling you Karen (doesn't even align with the meme), calling you a MAGA guy, or some other kind of dismissive insult. To be honest, I've seen a lot more of that than what you're suggesting. That was not mentioned on this topic at all. It was about people wearing a mask while outdoors jogging exercising etc. So, essentially you've just stereotyped that a person wearing a mask is now a judgy jerk in this. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I mean, in this specific example in the thread it was a poster doing it to the mask wearer and your first response it to say the mask wearer is actually the judgy one rather than the guy, you know, judging and making fun of the mask wearer. I fully agree anyone freaking out and creating a confrontation are over the line. Whoever posted the youtube video of that example confrontation a page or two back is spot on. Confronting and judging on either side of it helps in no way. Also, I have no idea how you're not seeing a large faction ripping on the hysteria of corona. This is out there, heck essentially an entire faction of the media is dedicated to it. You had mass protest all over the country for it. Or do you not have any ties or interaction with more rural parts of the state? That is essentially all a huge portion of them have been saying since mid February. And of course in today's world no matter what new info presents itself, they'll never admit they've been wrong. My point was essentially, all the guy jogging or going to the grocery store with the mask is doing is being overly cautious with the goal of maybe helping you. And you're ripping him for it. The guys piled into bars screaming Sweet Caroline into each other's faces are actively choosing to increase your risk. I'm not saying they can't live their lives, it's their choice and we're all gonna have to live again at some point. But if one insists on laughing/judging like this poster was doing which one would warrant "laughing at" in terms of their ignorance and stupidity? The one trying to help(however minimally it might be), or the one intentionally increasing the risk(however minimally it might be)?

I think one's chuckles are best left for the people running around acting like this is all made up over the people that are choosing to be extra cautious to possibly maybe help your chances just a smidge. They're not stupid, they know they're being anal on it. They're choosing to inconvenience themselves a bit for the greater good, even if it's just minimal, and you're making fun of them for it.