Brew crew 92

Did Gammons happen to say what would the owners' incentive be to quadruple the salaries of pre-arby players? That would raise the league minimum salary to $2M. I think it’s 57-43 owners, where 5 years ago it was 52-48 owners. Gammons said somewhere between 1-2, so if it’s say 1.5 then it would be approximately a million a year more per player per year, for the 2-3 years. Guessing 5-10 million per team more per year.

This team has been a second half team the last 2 years, I think it continues so: IN I believe the pitching, especially after the deadline, will be among the best in baseball, a stronger rotation than what we had last year is in the offing, and with Stearns apparently keeping Burnes in the pen, this bullpen with Burnes and a deadline addition, Jeffress Albers a rested Guerra, an optioned Claudio TIL September, D Williams, Rasmussen? Hader Peralta will shut down teams in August and be even stronger in September. This team will win 12-15 games in a row at some point in September to win the central.

1.) Cain 2.) Cain 3.) Cain He’s by far the biggest wild card, thumb? Regression? We’ll see. Devin Williams should/could be 2018 Corbin Burnes. Drew Rasmussen could be a high leverage monster if the Brewers let him later this year.

Peter Gammons idea is a simple one: Raise The min Pre-Arby Salary to somewhere between 1-2 million, thus getting an extra 2-3 mil. Into the players hands earlier. That would also raise the players % of revenue to closer to what it was prior to the last labor deal.

I wouldn’t trade Burnes straight up for Thor. I think many think Burnes in the next couple of years becomes a TOR, so at best that’s a wash. There isn’t a chance in heck Stearns trades for this overrated hulk.

Your martyrdom act is growing REALLY tiresome. Particularly since you simply ignore all facts that run counter to your argument (which seems to be based solely off estimates in the Forbes article). Please do not inject this into every thread related to money and salaries. There's one thread for that sort of thing. Failure to do so with result in a ban. Ok

But really you provided no information to back your viewpoint. Okay...Attansio said the saved money would be put into the team in the future when they are competing. But how much was saved? How much are we possibly over now? Was all that saved money going into one year? Five? Lorenzo Cain...is he here because of the saved money? See the problem is there is no way to know what exactly they are doing because none of us are in their front office or in accounting...we can say what we think forever, but we could be somewhat right or totally off the map and not even know it. It is an endless argument because no one will ever be proven right because there is no way to find out...none. Why have an endless argument? Of course I see the value of the franchise brought up a lot...but a lot of that is reflective because of how expensive expansion teams in sports go for these days, inflation, and how crazy people overpay to get a team in the rare chance one becomes publicly available for purchase. That isn't necessarily indictive of increased profits/revenues...at least not completely. No one knows the net profit but THE BREWERS. But we can assume and guesstimate to infer. 2016 & 2017 gross profit > 140 2018 gross profit > 75-85 > 80 Lowest debt % < 5 We can infer that the brewers made a healthy net profit during these years, so again: When is this banked $ going to be invested in payroll? What could Stearns do with an extra 50 million in payroll next year?

2016 payroll > 62 2017 payroll > 68 2 years of an extremely low payroll not one. 140+ million in gross profit. Then add the 75-85 million in Gross profit for 2018. So when is the banked $ really gonna be invested in payroll?

April 10, 2017 Wiscnews article by Tom Oats Mark Attanasio: When asked if the team would bank $ saved during the low payroll years to spend when competitive: “ when we are ready to compete again or compete very seriously again, any dollars that we save now can be used then”. Why do we put up with empty words? I’ve been crushed by many on this site for my opposite opinion regarding the brewers low payroll, and my lack of information provided to back up my opinion. Then when I provide said info in multiple threads I still get knee jerk mocking of my viewpoint, I believe people would be better served by educating themselves about the actual reality’s of this teams massive revenue streams, and this owners spoken words to us fans AND media. All I’ve heard from everyone on this site is how great an owner we have. Why is he a “great owner”? Is it because we’re comparing him to Wendy Selig-Prieb? I think so. Low bar to be sure. He bought this club from one of the most inept owners in baseball history, imo. Among Attanasio ‘s attributes is he’s a fantastic salesman. Great speaker, relatable to us fans and media. A good salesman persuade’s others to agree with his viewpoint. For 50 years, we as brewer fans, have had to put up with massive bias from the large city big market media, ignored, mocked even, for chronic losing, one WS appearance, but still, we fans of the brewers, overperform our market size to such an extreme, it’s really quite amazing, but in MY OPINION, we’re being TAKEN FOR GRANTED. All I want as a rabid life long fan of this team is to have an owner that puts his $ where his mouth is. Remember his words: “when we are ready to compete again or compete very seriously again, any dollars that we save now can be used then”.

Thank you for your voice of reason.

Huh? Obviously the players would love revenue sharing by the teams. I'm sure that would mean more money for them in the long run. It just isn't going to happen, and there isn't much the players could force to happen. How are they going to get the Dodgers to give the Brewers part of their local TV contract? They would be picking a fight with the hand that feeds them. In 1994 the owners proposed sharing all broadcast revenues equally among the teams, granting free agency after four years of service time, as well as a salary cap and salary floor, and the players walked out on strike over it. If your for the players in that they need to be better compensated; you for driving a knife into the back of teams like the Brewers. It’s hard enough for teams without a huge media market to win, when LA, NY, Houston and Chicago are spending twice what they are. To further widen the disparity between those teams by paying players more earlier in their careers, cutting their service time requirements before free agency, forcing teams to field mediocre clubs for no other reason than ‘tanking’ is frowned on by the MLBPA, means the Brewers will always be irrelevant turning over their roster every couple years as a talent incubator for the big clubs. The George Steinbrenner owner who pours buckets of his own personal money into his team are all gone. Owners like Attanasio, Mark Walter, Bruce Sherman buy these teams because they’re the ultimate investment. Attanasio, for example, paid 223 million for the Brewers 15 years ago. Major League teams are now selling for close to one billion dollars. Meaning if he sold today he’d likely walk away with a 300-400% return on his money in just 15 years. Dumping his own money into the team only takes away from the return on his investment. Sure, a little here and there happens but it’s temporary and infrequent. That’s the way it is with all the wealth management executives buying up the teams, owning teams is an investment now not a rich person’s toy, and the players are just slow to realize it Fantastic take. Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB. He also grew up a Dodger fan.

Don't confuse quality with quantity. Miller is not an option. He's been awful even in the minors. Highly doubtful Wilkerson gets recalled ever again. Smyly is hanging on in AAA. Both Burnes and Peralta have been given enough opportunities and both have proven so far they can't be starters. Gio is hurt. Houser has been awful in a starter's role, pretty darn good in the pen. Anderson is a #5 at best. When he brings his A game he is decent. When he doesn't he gets shelled. Pretty much what you'd expect from a #5. Chacin has been wildly inconsistent, nowhere near the pitcher he was last year. Everybody has quantity. Few have quality enough to be consistent winners. I believe more quality than you describe. Gio is pitching in rehab, so he should be back before the trade deadline, Houser will be just fine as a starter, he just needs stretched out, Burnes and Peralta haven’t proven that they can’t start, I’m hoping Stearns adds a couple pen arms so Burnes and peralta can go to AAA in August to start and pitch in the rotation in September.

Smyly another pretty good outing. So far so good.

3 ip 2 h 0 r 0 bb 4 Ks 3rd good outing in a row!

By signing him and Smyly, to me, that signals no trade for a starter at the deadline. I believe Stearns thinks he has enough potential starters for the second half, and has tons of options: 1.) Anderson 2.) Davies 3.) Houser 4.) Chacin 5.) Woodruff 6.) Peralta 7.) Burnes 8.) Gio 9.) Smyly 10.) Wilkerson 11.) Miller Bullpen is where he’ll add.

Giles missed time in June with elbow tendinitis > no way I want him, too scary.

I think most believe Stearns to add at least 1 pen arm, so if that’s the case, and no Hader Trade, and no starter added: I’d piggyback Burnes And Peralta right out of the gate for a start, and then put them both in the rotation. Chacín and Anderson to the pen to cover short starts/piggyback. This I do Because: if one of the two is successful(hoping it’s burnes) I Then have my #2 in the playoffs, or #3 if Houser does as well as I think he will. If both Burnes AND Peralta excel, then I’ve really got strong rotation. If both fail, back to what was before. Hopefully this is what I have after the deadline: Rotation: Woodruff Houser Burnes Peralta Davies Bullpen: Anderson Chacín D. Williams Guerra Albers jeffress Acquisition Hader Claudio optioned if D. Williams excels. In playoffs One of Burnes Houser Peralta to the pen. Not counting on Gio or Nelson being healthy enough to replace.

[sarcasm]Can you make them take Claudio as well?[/sarcasm] Seriously though, I think we're looking at having a loaded BP next year even if you take Hader out of the equation. If Hader can bring you back an elite haul, you have to consider it. I honestly like the idea of trading away a few assets, rebuilding or maybe more accurately re-loading quickly and then going for it. The other option, trading for players would require guys like Turang and that just doesn't seem worth it. Ray, Grisham...those players I'd be alright with, especially assuming Ray bounces back and ends up with a decent line and his value is restored. If we're going to part with someone like Hader though, I'd hope we'd get two elite prospects. I actually like the Forrest Whitely+Alvarez type deal...but that seems pretty far fetched. But I suppose that's your point. If someone offers that type of deal, take it. If not, his value probably won't change substantially over the next year and a half. Why would/should we trade a few assets(outside of hader to improve this year and next)and weaken ourselves this year, when this division is up for grabs? Assuming you mean trade Moose Grandal. What we get for those two rentals won’t even amount to a hill of beans. Imo, with that being the case, at a minimum, add rentals to help us win this year, without giving up significant prospects.

I think this sentiment will extend straight through the trade deadline. Pretty much every team in contention can outbid us if they want to. It's going to be a couple of under the radar moves and not much more. The players we have are going to have to play better. It's pretty much all about this. If Aguilar can keep his little mini-resurgence going, that'd be great. Shaw figuring it out would help, but that'd be a bonus at this point. Cain, Aguilar, Chacin, Burnes all need to perform closer to what they're capable of. If that happens and it need to start to happen in the next couple weeks, then it makes sense to go out and add a reliever. If those players don't get it going, then selling a few select players would make more sense and go into next year trying to re-load and bounce back. Imo, the NL this year, outside of LA, is as weak as it’s gonna be for as far as my eyes can see. LA- max payroll/Friedman > elite for years ahead Atlanta- just scratching the surface. Phil- $$$ SD- next year big leap. Col- Young team getting better Cinc- Young Team/strong farm/better Pitt- Young Team/strong farm/better Chic- still gonna be good Imo, we have our best window to win this year and next, we can win the central this year and next with the right moves, and it starts at this year’s deadline. How we do in the next 2 weeks doesn’t effect what needs done at the deadline. This team is ready to go on a run at some point in the near future, and with 2 pen arms added(D.Williams?Last year’s Burnes2.0)bat?, starter?, this team can get there.

David Freitas with 2 doubles in AAA all-star game. First time watching him play, big, looks like a catcher. Maybe if he can get his ave up to.380, he can get a call-up.

But wait, I thought the Brewers payroll was going to be 190 million or so? Remember how easy it was? You cracked the puzzle. The Brewers simply raise their payroll to ~200 or so million when it comes time to win a couple World Series, and then they slash them to 50 when they don't want to win. The most ironic thing of all of this, you believe that we're going to have FIVE aces on the team next year, yet you want to trade the second best offensive player over the last calendar year despite controlling him for cheap through 2022 ALL THE WHILE you're #1 goal is to win a WS while Uecker and Selig are alive? Oh, and also Brandon Woodruff if now the most highly regarded young pitcher in all of baseball. Ahead of Walker Buehler and others. I feel like 95 pct of what you say should be in blue. Oh...sorry, I forgot, on top of having those 5 aces next year, we're also going to sign Gerrit Cole, trade for Bauer, re-sign Grandal and Moose. So....while doing all those things, you're right, nothing makes more sense than trading the extremely affordable, game-changing MVP we have cheap for the next two and a half years!!!! If you want to get into a payroll debate with me, I’m more than willing in the spending thread. So I won’t comment any further on that. If you would actually read what I’ve said, you wouldn’t be saying the things your saying. So instead of continually throwing the ace’s comment at me in multiple threads, why not just stick to the subject matter at hand, l believe you to be bright enough to debate without the comments of months ago posts that I’ve already publicly said I regret saying.

First statement, so is that the reason that we don't have 4 aces in our rotation right now like you said we would with another on his way up next year? Also, no, not everyone is on pace for 25 HR's. Also, both these statements can be true; Arcia is playing plus defense AND "it’s not been to the level it was in the past.” That was what Counsell said about him. He wasn't playing AS good as he has in the past. Also, since this is basically a debate between Arcia and Dubon, Dubon is hitting the same balls Arcia is, just at a lower level and I don't think even the Maurico's father here believe that he's going to defend better than Arcia. Telling how you can’t just stick to the subject at hand, which unlike you I will. Arcia is not playing defense at anything close to an elite level, hence the criticism from Counsell. So you can word it how you like, but CC is probably TEMPERING his criticism of his defense publicly. Juiced ball home runs notwithstanding from both. Like I said in this thread earlier today, I saw more hitting skill from Dubon in his one MLB ab than I saw from Arcia in 2+ years of ABs.

Disagree as I'd still care. The number of wins a team has is irrelevant to me. If a change needs to be made you make it. If Arcia was playing plus defense his inconsistent bat can be overlooked but this isn't the case. You upgrade where you can, when you can. Really? So you don't care if a team has 116 wins or 69 wins? Hmm...I suspect that's nonsense! And Arcia is absolutely still playing plus defense, hitting for power, though he is very inconsistent. But this is a good question. "You upgrade where you can when you can." Well, Brandon Woodruff is not one of the top 5 starting pitchers in baseball! I don't care how good he's doing, they need to upgrade? Seriously though, OBVIOUSLY OldschoolSnapper is right. If Cain, Shaw and Aguilar were performing like they did last year and Chacin, Burnes were meeting expectations, and our BP wasn't hit by the injury bug...or really just any one of those, NOBODY would care about our glove-first SS who's on pace for about 25 Hr's and has an OPS around .700. Especially since I don't think anyone wants to give up the assets it'd cost to actually find a real improvement. First a statement: THE BALL IS JUICED. Everybody’s on pace for 25 home runs, or more. Now a question, if Arcia is playing plus defense, why the criticism of his defense from Counsell?

How about 2 1/2 times the prospect haul. 2 years of Yelich is “control”, one year is a rental. Massive difference in prospect haul. This is what we have to do. 200 million payroll, things obviously would be different. Trading Yelich, isn’t out of the box thinking, imo, it’s a no brainer.

I don't see any way this team would even consider the idea of dealing Hader. We act like relief pitchers are interchangeable, when they really aren't. Why in the world would a team with playoff plans THIS SEASON, and for the next several to come, trade off arguably the best relief pitcher in the game? That makes beyond no sense. If the brewers are going to continue to have payrolls 75-100 million less than the Cubbies Dodgers Phillies Giants etc., imo, they are going to have to conduct business differently than most teams. Out of the box thinking is a must. The brewers have already done this with regards to how they deploy their pitching staff, I would argue, drafting, with certain unique characteristics in their pitchers especially, etc. Not sure how many high payroll teams, that if they had Hader, would trade him when they had 4 1/2 years of control, > 0? But that’s the type of move we should be making now. Get the massive haul of premium prospects NOW, when Haders at his peak in value. I’ve heard just about everyone on this site tell me we could get just as much for Hader next year, I disagree, but even if that’s true, so what, by selling now, I’m still protecting myself from injury or regression, which in and of itself is very important, but I’m also getting these PREMIUM prospects into my system NOW, not in a year, time matters, and a brilliant GM, can plug in any ML ready prospect NOW, stash and develop, and or flip for more ML ready stars, strengthening the team. It also allows for more liberal use of existing prospects in our system to be used to fix our back end bullpen hole. In all likelihood Yelich is traded after next season, so, I want a stronger team next next year than this year, and adding 5 premium prospects now definitely helps achieve that goal.