JJHardy7

I think pitchleague is somewhat right. Some pitchers throw sidearm due to 'flaws' in their actual stuff. Throwing at different angles for some pitchers hides the ball from the batter and allows the pitcher to be more effective. So it's possible that a guy like Stetter would simply not be as effective over 6 innings as he would an inning or two.

Gabe Gross to Rays for Josh Butler Boy, is Gabe Gross missed in 2009. If the Brewers don't make this deal, they don't need to deal for Gerut. F. You do know that Butler was putting together a pretty good year before he was injured, right? The deal didn't look good last year, but if Butler ends up in Milwaukee sooner rather than later as a starter...I think this is a pretty nice trade.

My understanding is a player gets 3 days to report, and Hardy had clearly indicated that he would take the full 3 days, so I don't think having only the one PH appearance since he was reassigned 3 days ago means anything. That is true...I just wonder why he didn't start instead of having only one PH appearance. If he wanted three days off...that's fine, but to come in and just PH is somewhat strange. He needs to get it 'back together' and if he starts...that will help. He did hit a 2-run HR tonight while going 1 for 4.

I don't know if this should be in the minor league section, but is something still 'up' with JJ? He's only had one at-bat (as a PH) since the move. I wonder how long they're going to 'rest' him.

I do like some of the thoughts here in regard to a new manager...I've posted more than a few times I wasn't a fan. I know the manager doesn't 'matter' a ton in terms of wins and losses, but where are those posts on this thread? Macha is getting closer and closer to Yost-like hate. Earlier in the year posts would've been brought up about how a manager really won't make an average team a great one. I think the main problem is Macha simply won't put the players in the best position to succeed...he should be fired today IMO. IMO there is clearly a major issue in the front office that needs to get resolved sooner rather than later. While the Brewers minor league talent may lack top guys, 3 of the top prospects are/were in AAA recently...you need a manager that embraces that. The Gamel situation is something like 'How to Destroy a Prospect for Dummies'.

From TH to me: "Again, believe me, I have this 20-day thing correct. I've spoken to Hardy and he said the agent called Melvin to talk about it. They're very aware of what's at stake. And they hope the Brewers aren't playing games with them." Well JJ should be aware that whining about 'rest' isn't a good thing either according to quotes here. I love JJ and have never met or anything like that...and I don't want to speculate at all...I'll just say his blow up 2 years ago IIRC with Yost and now his comments about Macha aren't a good thing. That's just an opinion and I could be way off. It doesn't come across well though. It doesn't sound like it will be no big deal if the Brewers leave him down there long enough to cost him a year. And here I thought I was just imagining that it would. That's JJ's problem. Him stinking this year didn't help the Brewers. As for what day he needs to be back to ensure keeping his year, I have officially given up. TH swears its 20 days and you lose a year. But there's also the issue as to when the clock starts, today or tomorrow. All I know is that I fully expect JJ to be back in time to keep his service year in tact. I think maybe your first issue in terms of us disagreeing is you are valuing JJ to high compared to where I value him. It's not JJ the all-star. He's supposed to be in his prime or close to it and flat out is playing poorly. If this was some random free agent playing SS there would've been 'DFA' claims months ago for his job. I also think if he's not doing the job he should be doing and is kept whatever day limit it is to get another year...who cares? JJ might be upset, but those are the rules. Complain to the union about it...that's not the Brewers problem. It obviously wouldn't make a ton of friends, but like I've stated before I think there's an agreement. JJ is staying until 9/2 or whatever date buys another year...if he's not starting next year he'll be dealt. That's my take. JJ simply isn't worth as much as some think he is. The only way this move makes any sense (and again I'm not saying it does) is if there was a handshake agreement with the Brewers wanting JJ to hit again, increase his trade value, and maybe be ready to play at a high MLB level....and in turn they'll deal him if he's not the starting SS next year. If it's 9/1, 9/3, or 9/6...it doesn't matter. I like JJ, but I guess I'm trying to look at this as a realist...as I've posted before...what is JJ worth? I honestly think it's less than some would expect here and JJ is going to make less in the free agent market. Again, in the in-game chat a few bf.netters thought JJ for Clay Buchholz would be a terrible deal for the Brewers... MLB transactional rules are a pain in the rear. I agree, but if you're thinking JJ's party will whine...that's not the Brewers fault.

Unfortunatly, the guy who could judge talent was Jack Z, and he got away. Melvin gets way too much credit for lucky waiver claims of mediocre players. Every team gets those. Melvin doesn't trade our players at their peak because he has no idea what their peak is. So....why didn't Jack Z simply tell Melvin that JJ was playing above his head last year or the year before? Jack Z gets credit for the draft, but what about after a player is drafted? IIRC (I might be way off), but JJ wasn't even a Jack Z pick. Again, I might be wrong, but that's not my point. My point is the Brewers need to make an effort to determine guys true talent at the MLB level...that should probably come from scouting. I don't think it will happen with Gamel or Escobar...but let's say both are below average MLB players. I truly hope the Brewers have scouts who would say, 'Trade them', etc. I just worry this team hasn't and still doesn't have that. People complain about the Yankees and their over hyping guys...smart teams trade those guys that are over hyped.

You guys are missing Melvins biggest move of absolute buffoonery. Giving Hardy the opening day SS job, coming off shoulder surgery, on a team competing for nothing, after SS Bill Hall had a monster ST and was clearly poised for a breakout year. Had he let Hardy play in AAA to open that season, which should have been a no-brainer considering he had only played 26 games their, We'd have him through 2011. That would have given us huge trade possibilities, with either Hardy or Escobar. How though? If JJ was hitting this year, I'd agree. I do think it was maybe a bad move to have JJ up his rookie year, but I don't think that would change anything today in a major way. I've stated it before...Brewer fans have over valued JJ for awhile. He's not bringing back a #1 or #2 starter. He should've been traded a year ago or so despite how much longer he's under control. But X, you do go along my lines of the Brewers not trading guys when they're playing better than their talent.

Fine, just ignore the black mark it would give the organization with players, agents and the union. What? There's no way that happens. The rules are the rules. The Brewers wouldn't be messing with them and JJ has had a bad year. He's also making his $$$ wherever he plays. The Brewers from what I've heard, read, etc extended long-term offers to Braun, Fielder, Hart, and JJ at some point and time. I don't know about other guys, but to the best of my knowledge that's true. Your argument would have more weight if they'd send down Fielder under the same circumstances. Again, the Brewers very well could have a 'deal' with JJ. You'll start next year or we'll trade you. I think it should also be pointed out he comments JJ had that were posted here also aren't the most endearing from someone that is causing this big of a reaction. I'm sure he knows he stinks now. He actually might get paid more via arbitration than free agency at this rate....but that's another debate. IMO the Brewers have been a great organization (besides Macha) for a young guy to come in and succeed and then be rewarded or at least offered a reward. They were aggressive in calling up Hardy, Weeks, Braun, Yo, etc. Don't forget JJ's rookie year...he was terrible during parts of it yet still started.

How does it make sense to say that Kendall is not hurting the team with his awful play? Sure, the team's disappointing play can't all be laid at the feet of one guy, but Kendall is an enormous part of the problem. The pitching is bad, but having a better offense would also be helpful. A terrible player is a terrible player, no matter what position he is playing. I didn't say he's not hurting the team...or if you took it that way I didn't mean it. My point is you could probably put almost any catcher in the world in his spot and the difference wouldn't be all that crazy. Blaming Kendall for the team's season is like blaming Castro for the pitching. Also, "it can't be worse" does carry weight to me. There is almost no downside to making a move with Kendall (as has been shown when the team dumped comparably terrible players like Bennett and Moeller) and there may be significant upside. How is there upside? Who are you bringing up? We have MLB ready guys in the minors at catcher? That's my point...you can say 'Suppan sucks'...well maybe he does, maybe he's average...who cares...who is going to save the day? It's easy to say a player isn't playing well...but simply picking a guy and saying there's 'upside' isn't always true. I have nothing against Salome, but I would encourage you to stand next to the guy before you make these claims...I've stated before I wish him the best and I have nothing against him...at all...he's tiny though. I'm not a tall guy and I'm quite a bit taller than him...whether you like it or not that could potentially have physical limitations. And you want to call up Lucroy up to the bigs? Why? Rivera is the answer? There just simply isn't a guy that you can name and say 'oh he's SO much better than Kendall' in all aspects of the game IMO. Again, I hope if we're out of it in September Salome plays a ton. I just don't think that'll put us in first place. If Jason Kendall is not replaceable, then no veteran ever deserves to be replaced. Again...go to the minor league forum. Salome has/had a pretty signifcant injury (that I won't disclose here because it maybe shouldn't have been disclosed in the first place) as to why he wouldn't be called up. Look at the games Salome has missed this year...he still needs to grow defensively. I like Salome....I'm on the fence about the position, but his work ethic is awesome. I still think he's 'off the list' to replace Kendall who apparently is the worst player to ever play for the Brewers. Why bump Lucroy from AA to MLB? Does that make the Brewers a playoff team? No IMO. So you can play Rivera...fine play him. That's not going to change anything really. I'm sure others have better links to stats and such, but my guess is Kendall is a bad, bad hitter, but compared to other catchers he's not 'that bad'. In other words, it's not like he's playing in the OF, 1B, or 3B. And again, all these great ideas to call up kids from the minors...most have never caught any of our pitchers in Milwaukee. I don't see how that helps things...I think it could hurt things.

While I tend to agree, it's also true that when you get a younger player that you have under your control for a while at a reasonably cheap cost, you're going to be reluctant to deal them because they're like gold to a small market team. Oh no doubt that makes sense. I just think that if you have enough talented scouts you'd know when a guy is playing better than his talent level. I'm not saying trade Braun when he's cheap. Hall, Hardy, and Weeks are two huge examples IMO. Hall is bad, JJ is up and down, and Weeks I guess is up and down...their value has been much, much higher in the past. They haven't been 100% bad in this area though...I think moving LaPorta when they did maximized his value, but that's just an opinion. I guess we'll see what happens with Gamel and Escobar. The hype is fun and all, but if they both struggle DM would've missed an opportunity to maximize value...I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

No reason they can't bring players up 09/02 though. They don't always do it on the 1st. Just because Sept 1st is the 20th day doesn't mean he won't come up the 2nd after 21 days is the point I think. Exactly. They 'expanded' the rosters for the Brewers on the 2nd last year....not the 1st. Not every team shifts every player on the 40-man on 9/1. I know for JJ it doesn't fit the bill, but guys not on the 40-man could still be playing everyday at that point...I'd much rather prefer that instead of seeing the guys get a handful of at-bats the entire month of September. I know the Brewers will probably just sign a ton of free agents and such come beginning of September for back fill, but having regular season games through the 7th means that a guy like Salome would potentially start 7 games instead of riding the pine in Milwaukee for 7 days (I'm not trying to bring up the catcher debate...hopefully it's just a simple example).

The fact that Melvin has repeatedly picked the wrong managers and pitching coaches for the team, along with the fact that he has repeatedly choosen wrong on which players to give contract extensions to, speaks volumes of his inability as head decision maker. I agree somewhat...I think you're kind of picking your own 'wins' though and ignoring others. I think Melvin maybe gets too attached to the person and not the job (ie Yost). PF also brings up a good point. What about signing Pods and moving him for Lee? That should count for something. And what players were wrong on extensions? Hall....and then who else that actually mattered from a dollars viewpoint? Most guys on the current Brewers roster have not been 'extended' for any significant amount of money and been bad...except Hall. He signed Cameron, Hoffman as true free agents vs. Gagne, Riske...not a huge difference. The Suppan thing wasn't DM IMO, but who knows... His biggest weakness IMO is not moving guys at the right time to maximize value. To me, that's the key of being a GM of a small market team.

Again though, why is 9/1 this magical date? I think it's a moot point.

The Brewers haven't jumped guys directly from AA, but their top guys have spent very little time at AAA. Examples? Guys like Braun and Yo aren't your everyday guys. You could also argue that JJ and Rickie were rushed and struggled somewhat because of it. If you're great, you probably don't play more than a year in AAA...but most guys play one season there or so. Also, it depends what you mean by 'spent very little time'. If you classify that as a year or so, I'd agree. If you're talking more like two months, I'd disagree.

Small market teams do not pay reserves $7-8M to sit on the bench. JJ was gone before, and he certainly is now, barring injury. You get paid the same in MLB as AAA, AA, or A for that matter if you're JJ or Hall from what I understand. It's not like JJ or Hall would take a pay cut playing in Nashville.

You seem to have watched play some. What are your opinions of his defense? I am going only off what Money said about him and what scouts have said, which are not always the most encouraging. His caught stealing numbers are up but I do not know about the rest of his game. I'm still on the fence. I know some see me as a huge minor league guy and such, but I'm just not 100% sold on Salome either way. I do think his bat will play, but honestly if he was >>> than Kendall he'd be up now. There's a legit reason why he is not IMO. It's not a knock on Salome...I do like him, but I think all of Kendall's experience has to count for something, right? It'd be a terrible time to make that move. I think that Salome could be the starter next year, but how many times has he caught guys that will be in the rotation? Yo, Parra, Bush, Suppan, Looper....that number is very, very small. I'd rather have spring training to work on that. If we're losing game because of Kendall specifically, it'd be a different issue. If pitching is the problem, I don't see how Salome, Lucroy, or Corporan helps that. I've stated before that if Salome isn't ready I think Corporan might be in Milwaukee next year. I think he's somewhat under rated in most circles...not that he'll be an all-star, but he's a MLB catcher. Catching is always a hot topic here...I believe there were many singing the praises of how great Rivera was last year...that's changed a little bit. They are also better players. Kendall is playing because he's a veteran. You can't state that like fact. Nobody knows if they're better players. The 'it can't be worse' thing doesn't always carry a ton of weight IMO. I still think that the actual catching aspect of being a catcher does have some significance. Kendall's bat isn't good, but stating Rivera and Salome are better is off base. Kendall seems like the whipping boy around here and I understand why to a certain extent, but Kendall is not the reason why the team is where they are...especially when there is not a replacement that has proven they're better. Let's not forget Salome has been hurt quite a bit this year and as posted in the minor league thread has/had an injury which pretty much would completely disregard him being called up.

The Kid's Zone used to have $1 'Kid Hot Dogs' that were IMO exactly the same as the regulars...every game. I believe they had $1 sodas also.

There also isn't a clearly worse option. I don't think Rivera or Salome is likely to be worse than the worst player in the majors (qualified), but maybe I'm wrong. The downside risk is so slight as to be nonexistent. It can not be overstated how bad Kendall is. The difference between having Kendall catch and setting a garbage can on its side and letting it catch (and bat) would probably be half a win at this point. Have you seen Salome play?

I don't get why some think that at 12:01 AM on September 1st every player on the 40-man is getting called up. It doesn't always work that way. IIRC last year the Brewers waited until the 2nd: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/transactions?team=mil&year=2008 I think the 'plan' (if there is one) is to keep JJ there until the 2nd, but an injury could easily scrap that plan. There also might be an agreement that JJ is going to be traded in the off-season or something along that line. Losing a service year would stink, but the Brewers could easily choose to have Escobar the starting SS and JJ on the bench...that would stink more. I'm not saying anything is 100% guaranteed...I just think it's been overblown a bit here. There could be an agreement stating that the Brewers will trade JJ if they are going with Escobar as the starter next year...this gives JJ a chance to at least show some type of value.

What a bunch of crap from Attanasio. If it was completely performance based then you would've gotten rid of Suppan and Kendall too. Like others have said there just aren't better options in the minors....especially if we're 'in it'. I do hope that if we're out of it in September Kendall takes a seat on the bench. If it doesn't happen then, someone has a huge crush on Kendall inside the Brewers organization...

I'm probably in the minority big time, but after seeing Escobar play quite a bit this year I think he's ready. I didn't have that opinion at the beginning of the year since I only saw Escobar a few times in Huntsville. I know sometimes thoughts without stats to back it up are not always welcomed, but I have to think Escobar's speed somewhat makes up for what he's lacking with power (somewhat...he obviously has a little way to go in that regard). I do think Escobar will be a pretty good player, but I'm shocked that they demoted JJ. I guess it makes you really wonder what type of 'plan' this team has. This is the kind of move that indicates there may not be a 'plan'. Escobar should also play everyday. Don't bring up top prospects and treat them like they can't play baseball or need to be babied. Escobar again is a prospect that isn't a finished product and I am (and will always be) of the opinion that prospects get better by playing rather than sitting.

Well if the team we trade him to doesn't sign him longterm, I'm assuming he would be a type A free agent and bring them in two picks. So in my mind it would be one year of JJ and two comp picks. But I also don't feel you can get a #2 type starter for that either, unless as someone said that pitcher is overpaid even for a #2. And if the Brewers are taking on that type of salary, that would probably take away all of Melvin's flexibility for other trades or signings. You raise some good points. I guess the way I try to look at it is what would we give up for JJ in theory? I know we don't have young talented pitchers knocking on the door at AA or AAA so it's not 100% fair, but if we didn't have Escobar waiting in the wings...what is JJ worth? I don't think he's worth a Yo, but maybe a Parra-type?

How much value does Cameron have? I don't ask this to be a jerk or anything, but I'm surprised he wasn't moved at the deadline if he's worth $18 million or so this year... I like Cameron and would like to see him back, but if he honestly had that much value in the eyes of GMs he'd be in a different uniform today IMO.

I bet Hardy is moved for a 'potential' starter and not a legit one. Someone like a Buchholtz type rather than an established sure thing starter. Agreed...and we may be 'lucky' to get that unless JJ gets hot. I love JJ as much as the next guy, but I feel some here put way too much value on him. We're technically trading one year of JJ...his value isn't all that high right now. If we get a guy like Buchholz I'd be 100% thrilled. I just don't think one-year of JJ will bring that much back. It's nothing against JJ, but if you were looking for a SS...how much would you give up for JJ? Would you give up (not talking about position at all) Gamel or Escobar? I know we lack pitching prospects so it makes that point hard, but hopefully it makes sense. I just don't see teams giving up their top prospects for JJ. That doesn't mean he can't bring a nice haul though.