FVBrewerFan

Seinfeld (TV show, but #1 for me easily) Vacation (original) Caddyshack Not sure about the rest. Lines come to me out of nowhere sometimes, just comes out and hard to really think about what movies they all come from. I did see "Great Outdoors" mentioned. I only use one line from that movie, but I use it just about every time someone uses the word "local." My reply? (You don't know how local I am!)

Of course he would. Do you know why? He was guilty. So, you're proving the point that Braun would have no reason whatsoever to make a plea deal if he wasn't guilty. I don't understand why you're holding on so strongly to this conspiracy theory. Braun fought this aggressively the last couple years. Why would he just roll over now and ruin his reputation if he wasn't guilty? Google Occam's Razor, I think it applies here.

Just an honest question, not trying to be snarky. Do you believe Braun himself that he's 100% guilty? You head him say he nade mistakes, and he's accepting the consequence right? Are you the only person who doesn't think he's talking about PEDs?

MLB steamrolled him alright. They probably didn't have any evidence at all other than a scrap of paper from Biogenesis. Somehow they used no evidence and Jedi mind tricks to steam roll Braun into sitting out over 60 games, losing millions, millions more in endorsements, and incurring the wrath of fans, media, and players for years to come. Yea, makes sense to me.

The difference is Braun's actions have an effect on the game, KRod's actions did not. Ditto for Yo's DUI. We can peg these in whatever order of morality we want, but that's the difference. Pete Rose is bannedfrom the HOF for gambling? Why? It tarnished the game. Braun and other PED users are in that same boat. I'm not all that interested in trying to figur out the personal lives of athletes, as I have no idea how any of them are really like. What transgressions they may or may not have done, whther they got caught doing it or not. That's all personal business. Braun's actions have to do with baseball, not his personal life. With all that said, sure, I get the irony. People are more upset about Braun than KRod. I can only speak for myself as to why Braun bothers me more.

I lean toward JimH5. Of course parents, other family members, teachers, etc. should be the main or maybe only role models for kids. In the real world though, it's not that simple. Maybe role model isn't the right term, but kids do pay attention to what famous people do, and the consequences of those actions. So in a sick way, it probably is a positive in all this that kids see Braun took PEDs and is suffering the consequences of those actions. As a parent, I always tried to remind my children that an athlete is just an athlete, a musician is just a musician, etc. Admire them for that talent, but understand they may be wonderful or horrible people in real life. And it's too bad because I really want to like guys like Donald Driver, Robin Yount, LeRoy Butler, etc. But then I have to remind myself of what I preach all the time. I don't really know these guys, and can't get personally invested in them. So, where does that leave us? Athletes are looked up to, whether that should be the case or not. Their actions are noticed by kids. So they do have a responsibility to act accordingly. With all that said, if a public figure has a huge impact on a kid's life, methinks the parenting went south somewhere along the line.

It would have defused none of the anger. He said the same thing before so nobody would have believed him. Glad to here Mark say it since that carries a lot more weight. I'll split the difference and say it would have defused SOME of the anger. Braun did release a statement after all right? So it's not that he can't say anything at all, it's just a matter of how a statement is presented.. Obviously, he just can't get into details. It would have helped his cause for people to see and hear him give a brief statement, rather than send out a press release and skip out of town. That would have provided the human touch, and give everyone a chance to "feel his pain" so to speak.

I understand the distinction, just throwing it out there because I've been hearing that a lot from people. And it is a similar situation, since PEDs, while not illegal, is violating MLB's policy. Like I said, I know it's apples and oranges to some extent.

Apparently not. Brewer Fever said it's a fact Braun has used PEDs going back to his college days. Speculation problem WHOAA SOLVVD.

Yes, I agree everybody makes mistakes. I think one of the things that bothers a lot people is that if they made a mistake of taking drugs, and they were randomly tested at work, they would be fired. Apples and oranges to some degree, yes, but there's that.

And that's the problem he made for himself. If he came out and said early on he only took it for a couple months so he could help his team win the WS in 2011, that would have made a huge PR difference. In general, most Brewer fans would still think it was wrong, but support him. The media would even be much easier on him, for whatever that's worth. But now, even if it's true most people won't believe him. I've also been thinking about this. Can you imagine how ugly it will get if he starts off slowly in 2014? I mean, it doesn't even have to be Rickie Weeks slow, and he will be boo'd mercilessly by his own fans.

Hard for me to separate it out that cleanly. PED use vs lying. It's realy the whole ordeal, the lying didn't help and neither was the way he's handled the announcement. But no, I wouldn't agree that lying is worse than the PED use.

So let me get this straight. You were all blasting supposed leaks from MLB, and ESPN for reporting those leaks. And oh, by the way, none of it is probably true was the common refrain. Now JS publishes something and you're all treating it like all completely true, and the whole story? Could it be that Braun used other sources before 2011, even if the JS report IS true? No, impossible right?

Don't you think that's part of the agreement? That Braun agreed to take the suspension with the agreement MLB would NOT release the details. Seems to be enough talk that his use goes far beyond a one-time thing. And if you take emotion out of it, it probably makes the most sense that he used PEDs for quite a long time, maybe ven going back to his days in Miami. That would make more sense than deciding to do it just one time, in my opinion. Also, it wouldn't be in MLB's best interest to keep this going on forever. They would have made their decision this off-season and handed down the penalty. Braun, on the othe rhand, has already proved that he would drag it out unless there was overwhelming evidence. He was more than willing to role the dice on the bad test rather than come clean. You all get all over MLB for leaks, so you can't have it both ways. They could very well have multiple failed tests, or who knows what other detailed evidence he was using PEDs for who knows how many years. But it's pretty clear they had far more than a scribled note from a clinic. Do you honestly believe Braun would have agreed to this deal if that's all they had? I mean honestly...really?

We'll have to agree to disagree, since there's no way we'll know who's right until next Spring. All I know is I've heard froma couple freinds and family members who said they won't renew season tixs if Braun is still on the team. Have also heard this on radio call-in shows. Now, maybe they'll all come around by next April. It's possible. But I would say it's clearly a stretch to say at leat some fans will follow-though with these threats. I don't know if that will be 10 or 1,000 fans, that remains to be seen. And then you mention performance of the team. Even before this 2014 looked like another rebuilding year, so stack that on top of the whole Braun thing and people have an excuse not to attend games.

If his being here affects the atmosphere in and around the team, and so affects a segment of the ticket buying public that they stay away, no amount of production is worth keeping him around even if the return for dealing him in a strict baseball sense is less than equal. His actions and deceit cut to the core more so with Brewer fans than anywhere else. He'd get a much cleaner slate elsewhere from the fans. The Brewers gave him that contract not just to produce on the field but be the face of the franchise. He can no longer fulfill the second part of that. I might buy the argument for keeping him long enough to showcase that his skills haven't diminished, but once that's been accomplished, then you offer him up and sell to the highest bidder. He didn't just damage the Ryan Braun brand, he damaged the Milwaukee Brewer brand. This. I don't think some of you realize how bad it's going to be next year. Will things settle downa little by then? Probably. Especially if he does aat least a couple of the things I mentioned earlier. But there will still be a very large percentage of fans who will boo him, cancel season tickets, etc. How many? I have no idea. But how many can a team like the Brewers afford to lose? Then there's the road games, where we have to sit there and hear steroid chants 81 games a year. I know some of you don't care, but I do. And I know lots of people do too. As they say, no one man is bigger than the team- no matter how good they are. There would definitely be teams out there that would trade for him. Teams like the As and Cubs. Teams like the Jays and Orioles who have to compete in an incredibly tough division and would be willing to put up with the nonsense for a cornerstone like Braun. I think some people are focused on what SHOULD be. We shouldn't be that upset, we should just accept he was punished and move on. But it doesn't matter what you or I think, it's the fan base in general, his teammates, and the media. At least 2 of the 3 are not behind him right now. As I said earlier, sometimes the best approach is to rip the band-aid off. Start fresh, which won't be all bad with all the payroll that will freed up.

Ryan Braun is a member of the group of people who are over 2 years old and have lied. Which includes everybody over 2. It doesn't make it right that he lied (assuming that he lied, and not even knowing what he lied about specifically), but let's get the facts before tacking on witty nicknames. Too late, it's already out there. I used that term because you better get used to hearing/seeing that and worse for the next X number of years. Doesn't matter if it's justified or not, doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, this is what we will all have to endure as long as Braun is a Brewer.

Braun admitted (all be it too late) that he made mistakes and he's taking his suspension. Some seem to think that's not enough, without articulating what they want from him. Is he supposed to cut off one of his fingers as an act of contrition or what? Is he supposed to do a sit down interview with Bob Costas to clear the air? Is he supposed to give a tear filled presser and find religion? Let's not pretend some will ever be satisfied with anything he does ever again. Well, you're right in that some people will never be satisfied no matter what he does or says. But I do think he has the opportunity to win over Brewer fans, teammates, other MLB players, media, etc. Here are a few ideas off the top of my head: 1) Hand over MVP award to Kemp. 2) Walk through in detail what he took, for how long, why/how he justified it to himself at thetime. Why he now sees it is wrong (if even today he really believes he did something wrong.) 3) Press conference taking on all questions, and answering honestly and hearfelt. Funny how when he was claiming innocence he had a public PC. Yesterday he released a generic statement and snuck out of town. That is not lost on people. 4) Others have brought this up, but offer a significant amount of future payroll to charity. For those of you who think the deal yesterday has finally put this behind us, you need to understand PR. The fun is only beginning. Unless/until he does some of those items above this won't settle down for a long, long time. Brewer fans really never held Braun close to their hearts like they did with guys like Fielder, Yount, Gorman Thomas, etc. They don't like guys who cheat and then lie amount it. Yes, I understand there is no nuance here, but there isn't any for your blue collar fan, soccer mom, or lots of other fans. Otherwise, the Brewers need to move on without Lyin' Ryan, they may need to regardless of whether he does any of the above.

Why isn't Braun in the line-up tonight?

Trade him or cut him. He is the face of the franchise, so this will take a long, long time to settle down. I don't want to hear steroid chants for the next 5 years every time I watch a road game. I don't want to be in the awkward position of cheering for him (or not) when he hits a HR. In addition to doing it and lying about it, to this very minute he hasn't leveled with us beyond the generic semi-apology that I think agents teach players right after they sign a contract. Release a BS statement then flee town without facing the music. Nice. The whole thing has turned too weird to deal with. Maybe it would be different it was Kintzler or Weeks, etc. But since Braun IS the Brewers face, is this really something we want hanging like a cloud over how many more seasons? Best to use the band-aid approach. Just rip it off and move forward.

Nor am I exaggerating when I repeat, for the millionth time, that these private drug prosecutions are very much kangaroo courts. They are not designed to get at truth. They are not designed to be "fair" in the sense that Americans take for granted, to whatever extent they trust the courts to be "fair". That is your opinion, and you are saying this as though it is fact. There's been a lot of this throughout this thread, and the irony is stunning. Over and over people are complaining about leaks, and that ESPN is reporting them. Where are the facts? Where are the facts? has been the common refrain here. Then some of you turn right around and throw out your own rumors, opinions, etc. about MLB and the whole process in general. We can't have it both ways. If we can't assume Braun is guilty based on partial information that may not even be accurate, why can't MLB be treated the same way?

So are they "tanking" this year or not? I'm not real familiar with the NBA salary cap rules, etc., but from reading other posts here it looks like they need to have a minimum salary? I'm just confused, because if they're really tanking why sign Mayo and Jennings/Teague? You would think they would get rid of anyone not named Sanders and Henson, surrounded by Ayon and Ish Smith types. Then they sign Pachulia and trade LRMAM. Why would they want Pachulia over LRMAM? I'm probably the only one, but I don't believe Hammond is an iditot. I do think he has a plan, just trying to figure out what it is.

Problem is, unlike Mark A., Herb Kohl has no clue about what this team should be doing. They keep sending mixes signals about whther they're tanking this season or honestly tryint to capture the 8 spot in the playoffs again next year. I'm really hoping they are floating these offers to JR Smith, Korver, etc. so it looks like they tried. As I said before, I am actually optimistic about the future if they would tank this year. Great pick next year, maybe even the #1 pick. A ton of cap space and even more if they wait until next year to unload Gooden's contract. Sure, they may have to over-pay to get good FAs to come here, but that's ok. If you recall, that's how the PAckers were reborn. Overpaid Reggie White, and the rest is history. That's where the Bucks are. But they need to start from the bottom, add young top tier talent through the draft, and then over=pay for an impact FA. I was leery of this plan in the past becasue I wasn't sure the franchise could survive a horrible year. But the more i think about it, it's really the only plan that can work. And this franchise is dying otherwise anyhow. No matter how bad it gets next year, imagine the marketing dept promoting Wiggins/Parker, the kid from Greece, Sanders, Jennings... at least that creates a lot of excitemnet for the first time in a long time.

Ideally, any sign and trade would be for a draft pick, not a player. But that's probably wishful thinking. Next year would be a good one to gather as many ping pong balls as you can. Even beyond Wiggins the top of the draft board is supposed to be much better than this year. I don't mind having Jennings back, now that it is a more reasonable salary. I don't want them to improve the team this year beyond that. In fact, trading Sova for a draft pick next year would be nice. Let Jennings, Sanders, and Henson continue to develop, then add what hopefully is a great player in the draft next year. Add another guy in the draft that could play a role, and you still have a ton of cash to attract a top shelf FA. I would actually be excited about the future if they followed that plan.

Well, is you're tanking (which i don't think is their plan) does it matter who they have at guard? Could be Ish Smith, Vander Blue, Dan Gadzurich. Who cares if the purpsoe is to NOT win games? But knowing the Bucks, I don't think it is the plan. They want to try to "compete" every year. Frankly, it's hard to balme them, since they can't afford to have an avg of 5,000 fans in the BC every night for a year or two.