thebruce44

While I love the Brewers homegrown talent, I try to stay as objective as possible when looking at actual production. After lurking here for many years, I have often gotten the feeling that sometimes people's desire to follow a player's career from the day they were drafted all the way through until they flourish in the Big League's sometimes clouds their evaluation of a player's actual production and talent level. The corollary to that is that when the Brewers acquire a player "off the scrap heap" sometimes he gets treated like scrap--regardless of the circumstances of the acquisition and his subsequent production. McGehee is the prime example. Despite almost 2 full years of OPSing over .800 with almost unfathomable consistency at the major league level, many people still think it's a fluke since he never OPSed over .800 in the minors, and especially since he didn't do it for a Brewer's farm club.I can really only speak for myself, but I don't think I am in any way bias against McGehee because he wasn't in our farm system. Casey is one of my favorite players and I still get chills just thinking about him yelling into his helmet in the dugout after that dramatic homerun following an error last year. I love the passion that he plays with and the story about him making it to where he is today. At the same time, I am trying to be realistic about the situation. As such, I feel Gamel is the better option and the outside factors (which you suggest promote Mat) are the only reason people think McGehee is the better. I see the media's slant on the situation as much more influential than who came up in what farm system. While you see me and other posters here as letting that backstory be our bias, I see the media biasing your opinion. In the end, all we have is their actual play. As I discussed in my previous post, and as has been gone over on this board many times, I feel as though Mat is as productive as McGehee right now with much more upside. I'd expect a much more OBP heavy .800+ ops out of Gamel on offense and equal defense next year if Gamel was the starter instead of McGehee. While you seem to think that might be a stretch, I don't think it is at all.

Anyone counting on that to happen over a whole season, or even a half a season, lives in a fantasy world filled with chocolate rivers and trees that grow money.Sadly, you just described most of the Cubs fanbase.

Do you have a link to this chat or can you post what Witrado said in this thread? Sorry, I am really having trouble following your line of thought and I guess I am not sure whats your opinion and whats Witrado's.

I know we have gone over this a lot in the past, but in my opinion, and I know others share it, Gamel is already as good as McGehee at 3B with upside. Depending on how trades shake out, I think he has a logical position at 3B.

Exactly. While I loved watching his rookie year as a kid (its one of the first years I can really remember following a specific player), I don't think of him as a nastolgic choice. If Listach is selected I think it would be on his own qualifications, whereas a guy like Yount might generate some excitement, but I would question if it was for the right reasons.

Then you really haven't been paying attention for the last 2 years. Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards 3 Seasons 75 167 145 12 35 8 1 5 21 1 0 19 63 .241 .335 .414 .749 99 60 2 2 0 1 2 2008 22 MIL NL 2 2 2 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .500 .500 1.000 1.500 285 2 0 0 0 0 0 /5 2009 23 MIL NL 61 148 128 11 31 6 1 5 20 1 0 18 54 .242 .338 .422 .760 101 54 1 1 0 1 2 5/D 2010 24 MIL NL 12 17 15 1 3 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 8 .200 .294 .267 .561 55 4 1 1 0 0 0 /57 So about league average in his first MLB 150ish ABs. I like those numbers a lot.

You really think 2 pitchers with a combined 25 innings above AA can be expected to pitch 9 full innings every 5th turn through the rotation?

You are then working with a 24 man roster.

And then he got hurt on his pitching hand and everything that happened after that is pretty moot. Parra is not a good example of how to judge a pitcher, he is an example of how injuries can really stall a career. Having said all that, 10 IP is really completely meaningless so we don't know anything about Rogers from a major league standpoint. Are you saying that Parra's career took a different turn than it would have without said hand injury?

I've read/heard that one reason Rogers's BB rate looks so bad in the minor is that he was often working on his secondary pitches. Small sample of course, but his command looked very good in the bigs this season, and his 2.7 BB/9 supports that. Frankly, I think he's basically MLB-ready now, but agree with Toby that the Brewers would probably be foolish to not stash him in AAA for the early parts of '11 & salvage an extra year of salary control. I have heard this too and agree. That being said, with such a small amount of experience in the upper levels I still think he has plenty to work on in AAA next year. Basically, I am trying to say that another couple of months in the minors isn't going to hurt his development and I don't think it will significantly hurt the Brewers chances at the playoffs next season either. Do I think Rogers is significantly better than Narv-dog/Cappy? I think he will be a year or two from now. The first two months of next season? I have no idea. I would hate to find out he isn't while burning a year of service time.

While Rogers looked very good at the end of this year, he still has plenty to work on in the minors. Yes, he was all but unhitable, but the control can still improve. Unless a guy is absolutely tearing it up and is clearly better than your 4th or 5th starter, I see no reason to lose a year of his service time for an extra month or two no matter what situation the team is in.

Wow, what line of work are you in? Are you allowed to publicy swear at co-workers in front of a large group when they do something that upsets you?

Wow, sounds like he is losing it. Gotta think his company isn't going to be too happy about him publicly cursing out a co-worker.

I have Verizon. My brother has Verizon. I typically go 2.5-3 years between phones. He needs a replacement when his stops working every 6 months or so. We both buy quality phones. The difference is how we care for them. The one time since I have had a mobile phone (probably 8 years now) I had it break, Verizon replaced it for free since it was under warranty and there was no water damage. I really don't understand how some people have all these problems. I really doubt I have just been lucky for 8 years while some have been that unlucky.

Fine. His ERA was 4.5 through August, which is mediocre and pushing 5 at the end of the season, which is bad. As long as Gallardo was available, Suppan was a terrible choice to start game 4.I just looked it up and the following pitchers would have been worse choices to start. Villanueva, Riske, Taveras, Turnbow and Gagne. Those are the only guys with a worse ERA than Suppan. Going with FIP narrows the field to Gagne and Turnbow. Suppan was a crap pitcher by the end of the 2008 season any way you split it.Kramnoj, There's just really no way to manupulate the stats to say that Dale made the right choice in this situation either. Want to avoid small samples? Soup's 08 numbers were aweful. ERA 4.96, FIP 5.51. His numbers against Philly? From the JS just before that game 4 start: Is that meaningful enough yet?

Very surprised to see you make this argument.

I understand the need to throw up the obligatory "small sample size" argument, as I even included it in my post. However, I remember Cam slumping hard as the team fell out of contention, and not just suffering from a lot of hard hit balls right at defenders. I love stats, but at some point you have to overrule with common sense. Weeks was tearing it up. Cam wasn't. If you have one guy who is hot, and another who is slumping, you don't typically put the slumping guy at the top of the order in front of your best hitters. Sure, the slumping player is likely to break out of his funk, but why wait for him to do that in a key position during key games. Given all of the information available to Dale, I think he made a poor choice and did it for the wrong reasons. If you really think he made the right one, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

The only new show I am still watching is Terriers on FX. Its really really good. I will also be checking out The Walking Dead when it starts up on Oct 31st.

They won because of their pitching and defense, and in spite of "Sciosciaball." He bunts, hits and runs, and steals way too much. So, when did this become the "Why Dale Sveum is a terrible manager" thread? lol Anyway, I'm a little sad. I haven't heard any rumors about our next manager in over a day. I'm getting bored. I need something, anything. Tell me we're bringing someone in for an interview.I think you answered your own question. The Packers are all injured and theres no other Brewers news to talk about. We're reduced to rehashing Dale's couple of weeks as a manager.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

If a player takes advantage of that power to draw more walks it is helpful no doubt. In terms of using that power, I think it is more effective down farther in the order. As I said before, OBP is key before Braun and Prince get to the plate. Let me ask you this. At the end of 2008, who would you have rather had as the leadoff hitter, Weeks or Cameron? In terms of Dale saying one thing to the press but not thinking it, I can't really dispute that since its just fairly baseless conjecture on your part. There is no proof either way, so I really don't want to start guessing the thoughts of a man I don't know. I will however say that in many of his lineup decisions, he showed that he preferred veterans to younger and in my opinion better options. He said it, then did it. Maybe he thought something else, but I doubt it.

I think you are right about Kapler and Gross. However, I think Counsell was pretty much manning 3rd. Anyway, I am really surprised by the Dale love or rather that I am the only one who scratched their head at some of his lineup moves. If I am in the minority, so be it. At the same time, I just can't get myself to get behind a lineup like this one: 1 - Cameron CF 2 - Bill Hall 3B 3 - Braun LF 4 - Fielder 1B 5 - Hardy SS 6 - Hart RF 7 - Weeks 2B 8 - Kendall C 9 - Pitcher

Weeks did bat 7th so that Bill Hall and his .293 OBP could bat in the 2 hole. A few times he did have Durham or Counsell in the 2 spot. It was clear that his criteria for the top of the lineup was time in the league as opposed to skill set. I think its pretty obvious what I wanted him to do from my posts, not put a guy in the leadoff spot because of how long he had been in the league. I don't really want to get into a huge debate about this. I am just saying that in the few chances Dale got to set the lineup he showed some serious tactical errors in my opinion. His way of shaking things up wasn't what I would have preferred, and from posting on several sites with you over the last couple of years I am surprised you disagree.

Pretty much the whole offense slumped in September.For the most part, yes. But... Weeks in Sep 2008: .415 OPB, .944 OPS Durham in Sep 2008: .407 OBP, .956 OPS Counsell in Sep 2008: .450 OBP, .694 OPS Kapler in Sept 2008: .400, 1.015 OPS (in 15 PAs) I think Dale felt like he had to make some changes. To me though, the changes that he made (while minor in overall effect since it was only over a handful of games) and the reasons he gave for making those changes show his inability to make sound tactical decisions as an MLB manager. Edit: Obviously this suffers from small samples sizes. I think the point is still valid though that Cam wasn't the best choice to be a leadoff hitter.

And those strengths played very well in the outfield and out of the 5 spot in the order. As a leadoff hitter, not so much. I don't want to get into a debate on how to pick a leadoff hitter, but I value OBP over everything else for that slot in the order. It would appear as though Dale did not since there were plenty of other options. Durham, Weeks, Counsell, Gross, Hardy, Kapler, even Crazy Joe Dillon all had higher OBPs than Cameron that year (I don't remember if all of those guys were still with the team at the end, but just saying that there were better options). Not to mention, Cam really slumped that last month of 2008, posting an OBP of .257 and an OPS of .510. I remember thinking it was a poor strategic move at the time and I still think it was. I also remember Dale being interviewed on the move before his first game as head coach and he said the reason was to get a veteran up at the top of the lineup. I really don't see how that move can be defended. Again, no thanks.

Because I don't feel like indulging you in an argument I had with a separate poster 2 weeks ago or debating my posting style with you in. Especially when we are pretty much in agreement over the actual baseball issue here. You are trying to jump into a discussion out of context that happened 2 weeks ago and start it up fresh with 2 different posters after it already ran its course. Slow day at work? Do you have anything about Brandon Webb or Chris Young you want to discuss? Otherwise I am sure you can find something else from the last 2 weeks on this board to cherry pick and disagree with.