thebruce44

Interested to see where you are getting these figures from too. Also, I wanted to point out that the ridership between Milwaukee and Madison won't just be people going from Milwaukee to Madison and vice versa. As I said before, the whole reason this thing is being built in the first place is to connect the 10 million people in the Chicago metro area to the 1.5 million people in Milwaukee area to the 3.2 million people in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. If the state and its tax payers feel so strongly that this will be a huge disaster, then they can very easily pass on this federal funding and it can go to Illinois and Minnesota and to the track in between. However, if I were still a Milwaukee or Madison resident (I have lived in both cities) I would be happy to take this federal funding for a stop on the line. Whereas, I can easily think of more significant reasons not to use this line: - No freedom. Stuck on the train with no option to stop to get something to eat or use the bathroom. Have you ever been on a train before? The whole point is that you don't have to stop to eat or go to the bathroom. Being Wisconsin, where it's unpleasant outside five months of the year, you want to be able to deliver yourself as close to the doorstop of your destination(s) as possible -- train makes you jump through hoops of waiting for buses, walking, etc. No thanks. Fair enough, public transportation isn't for everyone. For me I have walked over a mile outside everyday as part of my commute for 1.5 years now and I love it. Sure sometimes its rainy or snowy, but I sit at a desk all day and feel lazy. I walked everywhere for my 5 years in college too and would honestly choose to walk or bike a mile or 2 over commuting without a second thought.

I don't follow you on this statement. By agreeing to (assumedly) midpoint deals, the other players are getting paid what their contemporaries are? And Corey Hart wouldn't be at $4.8M? I'm sure there are plenty of corner outfielders worse than Hart that make at least $5M. Well Doug flat out said how they make their offers when talking about the Villy deal and why it was over the half way point. It is based on market value (similar player signings that season), with of course the understanding that you go through the standard jumps of 40/60/80. The fact that the Cubs gave Soriano a terrible contract or that there are other bad corner outfielders making more than $5 mil shouldn't effect Corey at all. You brought up Nady as what you thought was a good comparison. He just signed a 1 year 3.3 mil deal, but without an injury you figured a $4.5 mil deal. Since Hart is in his final year of arbitration, 80% of Nady's total would be $3.6 mil. I agree that from an outsider's perspective, it seems odd that Hart wouldn't just settle with the Brewers at the midpoint. But who knows, maybe the Brewers weren't willing to meet at the midpoint. Maybe they feel their offer of ~$4.1M is more than fair, wouldn't really go any higher than $4.25M, & Corey or his representation felt slighted that the Brewers went to the midpoint with everyone else. You are right, this is all from an outsiders perspective and we are just speculating. But when Doug has never gone to an arby hearing as the Brewers GM, and has met virtually in the middle quickly with every player in recent memory except Villy who Doug said deserved more because of recent signings, I am inclined to think Hart is the one being difficult for the second year in a row. It is conjecture, but its also pretty logical and sound reasoning. Anyway, maybe we have to agree to disagree. I am starting to think some on here just don't like the system that is in place and thats really for another thread. In my mind Corey thinks he is above that system while all his other teammates are following it. I think that is what is rubbing a lot of fans the wrong way and its pretty reasonable.

How does it not apply? Because you're annoyed at Corey Hart for not being a perennial .900 OPS player, & he's looking to make as much money as he possibly can? No, as I stated in my previous post it does not apply because that system was the Brewers and they did give a crap about Hart's performance when they offered him a contract extension. The extra money he may win will mean next to nothing to the Brewers, and could mean a whole heck of a lot to Hart & his family. If he wins his arbitration case, he's certainly not hamstringing the Brewers' payroll flexibility. And if he loses, well then I guess he felt that risk was worth $300K. I mean, some people are literally passing judgment on this guy over an amount that means zero to the Brewers' competitive chances in 2010 or beyond. It just makes no sense to me. While I doubt his family will be going hungry with the $4+ mil he is going to make either way, the idea that the extra money he may win means nothing to the Brewers is completely false. We don't know how far apart they are, maybe only 300k or 500k, but we had 6 other arby eligible players who felt just fine getting paid what their contemporaries around the league are. If they all tried to eek out that extra 3 or 4k, we wouldn't have Doug Davis on the team. I too don't dislike Corey as a person. I know he has a family and he is probably a very nice guy. I am just saying that with the contract decisions he has made over the years and statements about the fans in relation to his performance, this type of backlash seems pretty reasonable to me.

There are reasons why the system is in place. Baseball couldn't function like the NBA or NFL where rookies are given exorbitant 4 or 5 year contracts. If a player comes up and looks special, many times it is mutually beneficial for the team and player to go ahead and sign a deal like Braun did. The player gets security and the team gets some savings down the line. Corey wanted to work the system in his favor and now it has blown up in his face. Your assertion that we shouldn't "pretend that nobody would try to get an extra 600k out of our employer when that system didn't give a crap before" doesn't apply to Corey' situation at all. And I will save you the trouble of looking back through the archives. You must have missed it, but many here (myself included) wanted to give Corey and Prince extra money to buy out some FA years. In terms of Corey I think we all know we dodged a bullet there.

BTW, if we are talking about revolutionary transportation technology you guys may want to check this out: http://www.tubularrail.com/index.html The basic idea is to put the tracks on a single train car itself and the wheels on structural supports spread out. The train always contacts enough of the supports so that it can be cantilevered to the next support as it goes forward. It could be used in cities where land is at a premium or between cities for higher speed lines but for a much smaller cost since you are looking at less than 50% of the materials required to build an actual track. I've read through the website and the crazy thing is the whole idea seems entirely valid using existing technology from an engineering standpoint. Texas A&M donated a bunch of land so that they can build and test the thing now so who knows how far out it is, but something like this would make it entirely possible to get a station in Madison for less than half the cost of purchasing land and running a huge right of way through the downtown area.

Ok, I get that. I just wish people would be more realistic. He turned in a .892 OPS in 2007 while making peanuts relative to his peers & his own production. And yes, that's how the system works. But you can't have that attitude about it when the player is being underpaid & not when he's seeking to make as much money as he can get... or seeking to be overpaid, I'm sure in the eyes of many fans. So because he had a great year 3 years ago while being paid according to the system, now he deserves more than the system typically dictates? And when he is clearly trending downward? I know some people loathe these figures, but since I don't know where else to look for a quick comparison, FanGraphs has his production in 2008 worth $4.6M & last season's as $3.2M (& they include defense). So let's say we're reasonable & forecast a 2010 OPS of .750-.780. I'd have to guess that he's going to be roughly worth what he's after. The reason people loathe those figures is they tend to be used incorrectly and misunderstood more often than not. The price of midlevel free agents is well below what it was in the past. Hart was worth 1 win above replacement and 0.7 wins above replacement in 08 and 09 respectively. Maybe a good comp would be Matt Diaz who is older, somewhat of a part time player, but is also in his 3rd year of Arby, produced 1.8 WAR the last two years, and is someone I would expect to well outperform Hart this coming season. ATL signed him last month to a 1 yr $2.55 mil contract and I believe they expect him to be a full time player this season. Xavier Nady signed with the Cubs for a 1 year, $3.3M deal. And he's 31 this year, bats RH, plays RF with what appears to be below-average defense, and is coming off an injury that forced him to miss the entire past season. Career OPS of .792, career OBP of .335 & SLG of .458. Basically as carbon-copy of Hart as you can get. If he were healthy last season, and still hit the FA market, there's no way I can see him not getting at least a deal of 1 yr./$4.5M, and that's at age 31. Nady appears to have put it together in 2008 (4.0 WAR), then was setback by injuries in 2009 and basically did not play. He isn't coming off of 2 underpreforming years where he just plain sucked. He had a great year, then was hurt. He is also a FA and all he got was $3.3 mil as you said. Hart has looked pretty bad for 2 seasons now with no excuse such as an injury (apendix issue aside). Pretty different situations, but if anything it just futher shows how ridiculous Hart's salary desire is becoming. Honestly, he has looked more like a 4th outfielder if you just look at the last two years. I could see Jody Gerut (2 mil in his 3rd Arby year and 3.3 wins above replacement the last two years) out preforming him and taking his starting spot. And from all the quotes on JSonline I would guess Hart has turned down an offer above $4.5 mil to hold out for $4.8 mil. It seems like the reactions from people here are pretty realistic really. He needs to shut his mouth and play, and its probably going to be for the generous $4.15 mil the Brewers submitted.

To me Corey's problem in MKE is that the Brewers essentially have a guy in Gamel that could probably match Harts offensive and defensive production at this point for 1/10th the salary. I don't have a lot of sympathy for him when he tries to squeeze out more money. I know the Arby system doesn't work that way and Hart is supposed to be looked at in a vacuum, but as a fan I see it something like that.

I dont think Doyle has anything to do with this. As I understand it $800 million is coming from Washington as part of the Federal Stimulus. The money going to the states has been diluted pretty heavily since it was originally going to just be Wis-IL, Cali, and FL. The federal funding will be enough for surveying, Phase 1 work, and hopefully the land acquisition. This is probably going to be a fairly long process though.

Very interesting, but I see massive problems utilizing that technology on interstates, especially with Wisconsin's freeze/thaw and plows. It looks like the technology is way out as it is. Maybe some day on parking lots or local roads in residential areas without much truck traffic.

In a word, yes, I think they can get the rest of it right. I work on jobs with IDOT and METRA, not the WISDOT. I am confident the Illinois portion will be done "correctly" but I can't really say for sure about the Madison-MKE link if WISDOT plans it. Without knowing anything specific about the current WISDOT plans I said the #1 reason in my mind they want to stay away from the downtown Madison area and its land acquisition. As someone else pointed out about the Isthmus, Madison could very well be a nightmare to build this through. With Milwaukee you could probably bring the train in from the south pretty easily, and going into Chicago wouldn't be too bad since there are already a lot of grade separated lines you could revamp for the high speed lines. The MKE to Chi line will probably have a much higher average speed than the Madison to MKE line at first, but who is to say WISDOT won't continually improve it as more funds become available. The government subsidizes Amtrak, yes. It is my understanding that these new lines would be also run by Amtrak, so it wouldn't be a competing rail or company. In terms of studies, I haven't seen anything about the Milwaukee to Madison area. I know the planner who just did the new intermodal Minneapolis terminal so I will ask him next week if there have been any studies when I see him. Typically there is a massive amount of planning and modeling that goes into this type of infrastructure and I am sure this will be no different. Finally, in terms of the speeds people are quoting, the problem is where the trains are running. Metra trains can hit speeds up to around 70 mph if I remember correctly. They do this in areas that are grade separated or out in the middle of nowhere. These high speed trains would be the same. They would hit their top speeds in the country and in cities where there is grade separation. If the best average speed WISDOT can get right now is 60 mph this may have more to do with cost in terms of land acquisition and supporting infrastructure and not with technology as someone said. Perhaps this is just the first step and in the coming years after it is opened that average speed can be increased. When I was in highschool I rode the train from London to Paris. In England we never got above 40 mph until right before the chunnel. The trains and the technology was there, they just hadn't retrofitted the tracks yet. This may not be a one time build. It may be as simple as getting things in place for upgrades over time. Anyway, I don't have a lot of specifics about this project, just trying to give an engineer's opinion on a lot of the issues that typically come from projects like this.

Bingo. You guys are looking at the small part of a much larger project. The idea is to connect Chicago, Detroit, St Louis, Minn, Milwaukee, Joliet, Waukegan, and Madison by rail probably in that order. People wanting a line up to Appleton and GB are probably setting their sights too high for now. And yes, it will be government subsidized I am sure just like Amtrak is right now. If they ever do turn a profit on this thing it would just be icing on the cake since there are tons of other benefits. Also, as a Transportation Engineer who may very well be working on this project (but hasn't read anything about the Madison area issues) I just want to note that you guys have no idea what a pain it is to get the necessary land acquisition for this type of thing. The right of way requirements for a train that can travel over 90 mph is going to be relatively large. Perhaps the reason the Madison Airport is a target is because of this. I doubt going underground is an option and raised track is super expensive. If land is available, they may want to stop at the airport on the way up to Minn. If there are several busses waiting there for every arrival how long would it really take to walk off the train, onto a waiting bus, then to the capital, UW, or Middleton? Its not like you would have to wait for the next bus 20 min from your stop, they would coordinate the lines. One last thought...the idea that this is a bad idea because we are a car loving culture is exactly the problem. Sure, we can drive our cars all we want now, but this infrastructure needs to be in place when we run out of oil or the price skyrockets. Oil is already pricy and we are a decade behind on alternative fuel research. I sure hope we don't wait until there is a desperate need for high speed rail in this country before we start finally building it. Funding for step 1 of 10 is now ramping up. After planning, land acquisition, and surveys are all completed the engineering on this is going to take a couple of years. Then they have to actually build the thing. The timeline of this is already overdue in my mind and I hope the Midwest gets the necessary funding to move forward. While some may think there isn't much demand, this area of the country is perfect for high speed rail.

He is the classic case of why you need to slowly increase innings in your young starters (and why the Brewers were wise to shut Yo down this season). He went from 102 IP in 2006 to 215 in 2007 (+149). Since then he has never been the same pitcher. To a lesser extent I wonder what will happen to Clay Buchholz this coming season after his IP went up 56 IP from 134.2 to 191.

I think theres about a 0.5% chance Hart plays center unless it is a huge emergency. He can't even play RF well.

I assume this will be a part of the Chicago to Minn line the government gave funding for. As someone who works in the loop, the demand for this is definetly there. People need to move away from the car mentality. I did (I take the train every day and drive about 1 time a week to get groceries) and have never looked back. Sure, when I take the train up to MKE my parents have to drive down from Grafton to pick me up, but they don't mind too much. It ends up saving a lot of time over how long it would take me to drive from the loop to Grafton in the end. The real advantage for me will be that I can come up for Brewers/Bucks/MU games and use public transportation the whole way.

And I don't think its a stretch to think he would have struggled the rest of the way and been well below an 0.800 OPS. Couple that with the fact that his fielding has regressed since his steller 2007 and I can totally understand why people are down on him. This isn't Bush or Parra pitching through an injury. This isn't Gamel putting up numbers as good as Hart when he actually got playing time. This is a player underpreforming for 1.5 seasons now. And in terms of his defense it looks like just a lack of effort to me, although I am sure he is working his butt off behind the scenes so I am willing to conclude he just isn't very baseball smart as others have said.

Parra is the exact type of pitcher the Brewers should be targeting, especially as the 5th starter on this team. Also in your proposal you seem to not take into account the Payroll. Parra is cheap, adding Washburn (while a little cheap) wouldn't be as cheap. DM is talking like we have lost a lot of flexibility heading into the season and we are sitting at around $85 mil. I don't see how adding 3 or 4 mil for Washburn makes sense and why it would necessitate a lateralish move to Morrow.

What kind of music is it?FreeThat only draws me in if its beer http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif.

What kind of music is it?

He was the prototypical #2 hitter and I loved watching him play. Its too bad it wasn't for the Brewers more.

Half the funny stuff is watching Shawn and Gus react nonverbaly to each other. Agreed. The casting of the two of them is perfect. And it is well written for what it is. Burn Notice as well. The Macgyver like explanations of spy methodology, real or not, are fun to watch combined with cable budgeted action.

It is difficult to say Escobar is already better than Hardy just because we haven't seen him play much, but I don't think it is a stretch to say he has the tools and potential to be the better fielder by the end of the season. I would say Hardy is a slightly above average SS. By the end of the season I expect Escobar to be a top 5 SS by scouting reports and from what I have seen. Also, I think Cameron was living off of his reputation this last season. His range was still good, but he misplayed a lot of balls. I think CF and SS has been upgraded quite a bit defensively.

Now we are just waiting on Hart, Bush, and Villy. If they all meet in the middle I have our Opening Day payroll at $85.5 mil counting all the dead weight.

Oops: That competition should be interesting because Parra and Narveson are out of minor-league options http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/82200177.html

I would like to see Naverson stretched out in AAA and be the first option for the starting rotation followed by Soup and Villy who I guess will be up in the MLB pen.

I was cracking up when they came back from the break and were playing Led Zeppelin. Conan had a great line about how it costs NBC a ton everytime they play Zeppelin.