HiAndTight

I don't believe the organization made any decision on this yet, so to speak so definitively is a big premature. Green battled the ever daunting wrist injury zapping his power and his ability to hit. The Brewers obviously understand this mitigating what he did last year at AA. I think it's entirely possible that Green ends up in Nashville, though his opening day assignment has more to do with Mat Gamel IMO than anything he's done.

I couldn't agree more. Too often in baseball now that old ''eye test'' is thrown out, but from watching Gamel for an extended period of time, he looked much better at 3rd than I expected. He looked to have very quick feet, a very strong arm, very fluid, soft hands..... Now he's got his warts, the biggest Gamel fan will admit that, but to me it looked like if he held a few balls that he doesn't have a chance on, and he can win the fight against the very easiest, then he's going to be at least average. To be fair, I believe had we given Braun a chance, had the Brewers been in the same position with him as Rickie Weeks, he would have turned into a slightly below average fielder. Or roughly the same defender at 3rd as Prince is at 1st realitive to their positions. But I think Gamel's more natural over there, and I believe if he's got the natural ability and the athletic ability, the only thing standing between him and becoming a suitable defender over there is work and time.

Salome is a pretty good hitter for a catcher, but every report i've read indicates that he's unlikely to stick there. His bat becomes much less impressive when he's projected as a 1B or DH. Every report you've read indicates he's unlikely to stick there? I would say you're greatly overselling the question marks regarding Angel. There are questions about his defense, but very few question if he's going to stick at catcher. And if you're talking about tools, few catchers can match Angel's pure tools. I understand the Lucroy v Salome argument, I don't understand this argument. And Amaury Rivas is a very, very good prospect. He is in the lower levels of the minors, but he throws in the low to mid 90's, and his change was voted the best in the Florida State League. But if you know little about a pitcher such as Rivas, calling him a non-prospect, or not a good prospect seems odd. I don't believe that would be enough to get Johnson either, but I believe you're really, really underselling the players included in this proposal. In fact, I think an argument could be made for Rivas vs any other pitcher in our system.

I think the Red Sox are the obvious partner for us. I've read several ideas that include Buchholz, and while I think that's a good place to start, I'd prefer to start with Kelly as the main player coming back. We were offered a package of lets say Kelly+Buchholz+Bard+Anderson and we gave them back perhaps a Corey Hart and an Angel Salome, who would say no first? My guess is that perhaps Bard needs to be swapped out for a lesser prospet, perhaps the kid they have from Japan, but I'm not sure. I do think we need another guy with big time potential that we can possibly move into the cleanup slot and play 1st base in the future. Obviously it appears as though Lars is a couple years away(at least a year and a half), but we need to get that player into our system, something that we currently lack....unless anyone wants to move Lawrie over there now? Only half serious as I believe he's more than capable of becoming a average to good 2nd basemen from watching him play. Or perhaps you offer up Gamel/McGehee and Prince and you hope they're salivating enough at the prospect of adding Prince Fielder to that team that they'll give you Bard, Kelly, Buchholz and Lars? For arguments sake you could have Youk play 3rd, Prince DH, Gamel play 1st. Just a thought......

I can't tell you how incredibly refreshing it is to hear such a perspective. I have long since stopped arguing with people who think Selig is the baseball anti-christ. It's truly maddening how chastized Selig has been throughout his career and for what? Because of roids, the strike, the ASG and what? That the Brewers were bad when he was the owner? Again, let us not forget that he left in 1994 and relinquished control of the team. Now leaving the team in the very incapable hands of Wendy and Laurel is on him, but that aside, he has been the hero for Milwaukee and Wisconsin Baseball fans. No Bud Selig DOES equal no baseball in this state. At least IMO. There are far other places as likely if not more likely to get a team than us, and were it not for Bud fighting to bring it back in '69, who would have? Bottom line, he's left the game in this state SOOOOO much better off, and he's left the game as a whole much better off IMO. And he does it without the righteous indignation that a certain previous Commish who cannot allow himself to be out of the headlines and who choses to undermine virtually every decision that Selig makes.

Nor do I. Again, does Rickey Henderson know more or offer better insight into prospects than Jack Z? I highly doubt it. I like to hear comments and then we can decide what to believe and form our opinions.

Coach, I'd like to put this to rest. It's not my intention to come over here and start off by getting into a prolonged feud with someone such as yourself. Just a couple things. First of all, I have not, nor will I ever question your credentials. For the record, I won't question anyone's, nor will I dismiss their opinion because I don't know who they are or what they've done. I suppose when the comments about my sisters virginity and other comments about other equally ridiculous and non-consequential issues were brought up I may have reacted negatively.....I tried not to, but if some believe I have, I apologize. With regard to your comments on Lucroy, they certainly appeared to be pretty overtly negative toward him when you pointed out his atrocious footwork and mechanics. And at some point, we have to look to what others have to say in order to form our opinions. That's how this works for most of us. I've seen Angel and Lucroy play a combined 3 times(aside from Salome's time in Milwaukee). That's not enough to form an opinion. I'd have to watch them play for months in order to really form a valid opinion. So instead I try and incorporate all the opinions by the scouts and the organization. Are they always right on? No, but when I hear from a litany of sources that Lucroy was one of, if not thee most impressive catcher in the Fall League, and then another talks about how atrocious he looked, I'm inclined to lean toward the masses. If you want to chastize me for leaning on them for my opinions, that's fair as I won't pretend to be a professional scout. As for the Dominican thing, yes, I understand that point. But again, what I was trying to say is that I understand that for players who are 16 trying to get signed in the Dominican. Not those who went to High School in New York. Simply put, Lucroy's ability to draw walks and Salome's inability to do represent a significant advantage for Lucroy. The last thing I'll say is that Angel Salome has always been a huge favorite of mine. He's got a lot of ability. But, based on his unorthodox swing, and some other area's of his game that may not translate(or may) he's far less of a sure thing. Great upside, but Lucroy is a pretty sure thing, and a pretty good sure thing IMO.

Please, I beg of you to point out at what point in time I bashed Salome. I don't know what I have to do in order to articulate how highly I think of Salome. I would question almost any prospect who had questions throwing out runners with such a strong arm having sub 1.70 pop times. That's very impressive. The comment about rooting for my sisters boyfriend and her virginity or whatever it was you came up with makes everything else you say comical and makes your assertions of me all that much more hypocritical. I've taken efforts to disagree in a respectful manners, so rather than making wide sweeping comments about how little respect I have as a poster and how I've bashed Salome, please show me what I said in those respects that you take comment with. Finally, I don't feel the need to "prove" that I provide more insight than coach. He apparently has run a very impressive program in NY and has produced a good number of very, very good players. I'm also not going to sit here and list what I've done and who I am. Frankly, it's not important. I don't want my thoughts and opinions to be about what I've done in athletics. If what I've said is deemed to be so offensive by the powers that be, I'd hope someone would tell me rather than someone who's sunken down to such a childish and trashy level as to make the comments that you have. You can spout off all you want about your lack of respect for me, however the last couple paragraphs about my sisters virginity in your post have told me all I need to know about you. And by the way, who are you? What have YOU done? Not that this is important to me, but if you are going to make the claim that my opinions and comments are not worthy of respect on this board because I have not given you my resume, then please by all means give me yours? At the end of the day coach, I respect your insight and your accomplishments in athletics. Beyond that, the ad hominen attacks for having the audacity to question something that was posted seem a bit much.

Futhermore he hasn't said anything about Lucroy that isn't true, I believe Lucroy is the more polished player today, but with him it's going to be what you see is what you get, he absolutely has the lower upside of the two. At the risk of being accused of arguing just to argue, can I clarify a point here. Do you then agree that Salome is a far superior defensive player when it comes to the fundementals of the game, is better at throwing out runners, has much better footwork and that Lucroy is a very poor defender? I wouldn't ever argue that Salome has a higher upside. I'm not sure how to take, "what you see if what you get" because as has become obvious in this thread everyone sees something different, but most will agree that Salome provides a higher upside. Coach sees a very poor defender with poor footwork and mechanics. Others see Lucroy as a much improved defender and a superior defender to Salome. Therein lies the problem with trying to sum everything up in general terms.

High and mighty? I find it ironic that you're the one preaching about coming off high and mighty with a healthy dose of righteous indignation here. What's more, I don't believe anyone claimed to have any more "insight" than coach, simply that I questioned the validity of some of his claims and I tried to do so in a respectful manner. If I failed, I apologize, but I have a hard time believing that Salome has sub 1.70 pop times, or that he's truly so advanced defensively while Lucroy is so incredibly poor because his coach and close friend tells me so. If questioning that makes me come off as though I know more, then so be it. As for your last paragraph, that time if mindless drivel really shouldn't warrent a response. Please don't speak to me about the tone of my posts because I dared to question a healthy dose of hyperbole. What's more, I would say that the only one who's trying to diminish one of these prospects.......is coach. I've stated several times that I've been a huge Salome fan and that he's got incredible physical attributes, before I was corrected that he was not a "lug". He was the one telling how just how awful Lucroy was because in ONE game he threw out "only" 1 of 4 base runners......or roughly the same pct that Salome has for his minor league career.

Again, with all due respect coach, Angel's CS rate in the minor leagues is just a shade over 25%. So if Lucroy is terrible from this one game you watched, then I don't understand how you can say that Angel is so clearly superior. As for your opinion coach, I do not think it's worthless whatsoever. I believe you're very close to Angel and as such, you are perhaps not as objective as others who are also very qualified to evaluate players. So I don't know who that was in response to, but please do not confuse my disagreement with my thinking your opinion is worthless. I do not find that to be the case at all. I find it to be interesting, however, like a father talking about his son, perhaps to be taken with a grain of salt when the topic of Angel comes up.

First of all, please bear with me. I'm trying to address your points as they came without taking up a lot of space quoting or cutting and pasting. His high school IS the point, that is my point exactly, people throw things around that others say without getting the facts straight. I'm trying very hard here to stay cordial, but no coach, it is not. I do not know how you can presume to know what "the point" is when it's my point. Once again, the "point" I was making is that he went to high school in the USA. Be it the Bronx or your high school, that does not matter. You attributed his inability to draw walks to him being Dominican, I'm trying to articulate to you that I don't buy that whatsoever as he came up HERE. I'm trying to find a polite way of saying this, but this isn't about you, or your program, this is about one player, Angel Salome vs another, Jon Lucroy and who is better. I respect that you believe you're going to have X numbers of players drafted and that X number are in your mind able to compete with anyone in the country, but that in no way impacts who's going to be catching for the Brewers in the near future. Second, with respect to the "big lug" comment, please don't tell me I'm missing the point on this regard when you called me out and told me how I was wrong to think he's a big lug, AFTER I spoke about his substantial physical attributes, and then say, "well, so many people on this site...etc..etc...etc..". They may well think one thing or another, but what I think I write and I think I wrote that pretty clearly. He's a very impressive athlete. Third, you initially stated that he didn't walk because he was Dominican. You still haven't answered my point. You did tell me how long you coached and then stated that it's just how it is, but are you trying to say that regardless of where someone who is Dominican is raised that they will never be able to draw a walk consistently? If so, again, I don't buy it. Now you're telling me it's a "New York thing". In any event, perhaps a change to your coaching theory may help as thatt's one of the biggest advantages Lucroy has over Salome. Please don't take that to be snide, but in all honesty, you seem to brush it aside as it's not that important. Well, it is. It's perhaps one of the 2-3 most important aspect of drawing runs and having an effective offense. Finally on this matter, you can go up and down the list and find a plethora of Dominican players who carry very impressive OBP's, again dispelling the myth IMO that simply because you're Dominican you won't be able to walk. As for how fast the kids you have are, it all sounds very impressive, and it sounds as though you have a very, very good program. I guess though it comes off as perhaps a bit of hyperbole when you say you guarantee this kid will drop this much time off, or how these kids have cut a full second off their 60 as adults. I truly do not wish to get into a prolonged back and forth here coach, and I've long been a big fan of Angel Salome, but when you attempt to diminish Lucroy can talk about how terrible he looked, and make comments about Salome that frankly sound over the top and are in direct contrast with the prevailing scouts and every ranking, I suppose I question the validity of those comments.

First of all coach, the point wasn't what High School he went to, that it wasn't in the Bronx isn't the point, the point is that he wasn't signed out of the DR and as such, excusing that he doesn't walk by saying he's Dominican is pointless IMO. As for the expression, yeah, obviously I've heard about it if I addressed how I don't buy it. And it's not "just" an expression to you if you used that as your rationale as to why it's not important for him to not walk...."most Domincan's don't anyway". So when you're talking about a kid who is from New York, what are you saying? It's in their DNA that they just can't walk? They somehow lack the ability to walk that American baseball players do not, or Asian players do not? I can see a 16 year old kid trying to get a contract not being as worried about drawing walks, but that loses something when they're from the US and they've played here their whole lives including 6 years in the minor leagues. As for the rest coach.....you seem to be taking an awful lot of offense and feeling the need to really defend your program because I said I have a hard time believing that all these people are dropping a second off their 60 times. If you're talking about kids during their time in high school, that's one thing, but you made it sound as though he's doing this with adults which I wouldn't believe. I also don't take "he will run a 6.1 by the time he's a senior" as really substantial. It's a guess and it's hopeful, but it's not really proof. As for the please stop thinking he's some big lug, just where on Earth does that come from? Maybe this is the cause of you being overly defensive of him. I believe in the last post I made a comment about his impressive physique and physical attributes. So where do you get big lug from that? What's more, I think it's ridiculous to try and take shots at Jon Lucroy who is universally regarded as the better catcher. When you start talking about seeing 5 passed balls and how Salome is so clearly the superior defensive catcher, you do lose credibility. I actually apologize for previously chastizing the poster because I know see what he was talking about. It's just all to over the top. All the kids that are going to be pro's is great, sounds like an impressive program. All the pitchers you've spoken to is hearsay and hard to really quantify. Either way, in the most polite way I can say it, calling Lucroy atrocious, and telling everyone about your program, as impressive as it may be, doesn't really validate Angel Salome, in fact based on the opinions of all the scouts who've seen Lucroy in the fall league and compared him to the top catchers in all the minors, it makes me question your evaluations as a whole.

It's not that I would prefer to not tie 20% up in one player, it's more that I'd rather it not be Prince. Ryan Braun when he's due to become a FA is a player I'd spend the money on. A leader who wants to be here who is more likely to stay healthy, is maybe a more well rounded player. Now Prince IMO is the better hitter, but I'm just too worried about him becoming Mo Vaughn 5-6 years down the road, if not 3-4 whereas I believe Braun truly is thinking about his place among the games all-time greats, works very hard and will be a great player for another 13-15 years.

For starters I really disagree that BABIP and FIP are meaningless stats. All you have to do is watch baseball to see how much luck there is for hitters and pitchers and how defenses impact pitchers. I love Weeks, but how many times has he extended innings simply by being unable to turn a easy DP ball? Or any number of things, so to dismiss those on their face is crazy to me. I do agree with him about the walks however. Especially Dave Bush in his first 3 years in Milwaukee and often times Ben Sheets. Good walk rates are low, grooving a fastball in a 3-1 count because you refuse to allow any walks are not.

Also Salome is better than Lucroy at least offensively he is. This year being an injury year I wouldn't be surprised if Salome has a better year next year than Lucroy does offensively. The only aspect that Lucroy is better than Salome at is his defense. I don't think the Marlins would really want Lucroy and they would rather have Salome over Lucroy because of the offensive difference. First of all, you say "the only aspect Lucroy is better than Salome at is his defense". Well, he's a catcher. That's a pretty big deal. It's like saying the only pitch one reliever throws better is a fastball. Well...that's the most important part or a reliever as defense is the most important part of a catcher. What's more, it's most certainly debatable that Salome is a better offensive prospect. Salome's got a nice stick, but his inability to draw walks is going to hurt him early in his career whereas Lucroy has a chance to at least be productive early on offensively. Salome is still the better prospect over Lucroy it is just that Lucroy is probably a more sure thing than Salome is to stick at catcher. Well, he's not according to any of the prospect lists I've seen this off-season. Also, if Lucroy doesn't stick at catcher(which I think we all assume he will) he could move. Where are you going to move a 5'7 stocky catcher? 2nd base? 1st base would be terrible. LF? The answer is AAA. Lucroy is more of a sure thing because he's a well rounded catcher. Salome has far more holes in his game.

Except for last year when the Red Sox signed Smoltz and Penny in just that situation.Dice-K, Lester, Beckett, Wakefield, Buchholz, and then you had Masterson who could also start. So they had 6 and they signed 2 more. Now the Brewers aren't the Red Sox, but our staff also isn't nearly as difficult to break into as that staff. Everyone of those pitchers would be our #2 at worst. This also assumes that the Yankee's won't sign any starting pitchers this spring, nor will the aforementioned Red Sox.

Exactly. It's not tough to see how much more effective he is with his newfound stance. He's much quicker to the ball, and his swing is obviously much more compact. Appears as though he's added quite a bit to his career. I'd really like to see him back, but 2 years 5 million would be about as high as I'd go.

I still take issue with the comment that most Dominican's don't take walks. Heck, most don't ever make it and do anything. The good ones sure take walks, the great ones take walks. Even Vlad's taken enough walks to carry an impressive OBP. I don't like to discount the importance of being able to take walks by just chalking it up to them being Dominican. Is there something in their DNA that doesn't allow them to? Because I know Salome went to High School in the Bronx. I just think that's a fairly weak excuse. As for the 60 time, I'll be pretty happy if he can get to 6.6, but I have to question how many have gone from 7.4 to 6.5, just as a sub 1.7 pop time for Salome sounds a bit questionable. I hope you're right, but at the end of the day, even if those things are, Salome's always been an incredible physical specimen, that still has to relate to blocking pitches, throwing runners out, knowing the opposing teams and calling a good game.

I can only hope this hyperbole. Perhaps he's not Francouer, but one of the worst throwing OF'ers you've ever seen? The problem as I see it with Hart is quite a bit more simple. He doesn't get any air under his throws. For instance in the All-Star game he threw it exactly how they teach you in Little League. To hit your cut off man. Forget the cutoff man, get it to the catcher on a fly. Anyway, we need to upgrade over our 2009 RF production. However Corey Hart is not only capable of doing so, I think it's a fairly good bet he will.

Seems like an awfully snide comment(towards you) for simply not agreeing. As for the Rockies situation, what difference does speculating about what they are making hand over fist have to with anything when we know what they DID spend? It's easy to guess they're able to spend so much more, but the fact is they didn't spend so much more, and they have been competitive. That right there is the argument, isn't it? That they may have been able to spend more money when they were winning, but chose not to goes against virtually everything we've heard regarding the team in their discussions with Holliday and Hawpe, but more importantly isn't relevent. What actually happened seems to be far more pertinent.

I have to say, I'm getting pretty excited and one more draft in which we add several high cieling type arms coupled with another season of progression from all our young arms(with realitively good luck health and...err....herb wise) we could be the envy of most farm systems with regard to pitching. Ironic since all anyone can talk about right now or last year is the dearth of viable pitching prospects at the upper level. A few more Eric Arnett types, maybe another Del Howell here, a Brooks Hall there......with the really good arms we've got now all the way up to AA things should really start to turn around in that regard.

Yes there was. I don't recall where I saw that, but I know exactly what you're talking about. I think this next season is going to be very, very telling for the financial future of this franchise. Do the Brewers draw 3 million? 3.1? If they can do that coming off a poor year, it will, IMO, give management the confidence to go out and spend next year when the three amigos come off their payroll. If they sink to say 2.4, 2.5 we're obviously going to have to make some cuts. I guess I have the confidence that the Brewers will continue to be a big draw and with a little bit of luck can find ourselves back in playoff contention next year.

You must also figure that the Brewers were willing to spend more money last year, but were simply unable to add a starting pitcher. They've also had steadily rising revenues. It's anyone's guess as to what they'll actually spend, but I don't think it's difficult to imagine the Brewers spending 20 million this off-season.

Yeah, there was some talk about Green on the previous thread before it was decided he signed at 18 and was not available. Either way, Cain's a 5 tool prospect who'll start the year in AAA. I think it's almost a given a team such as the Royals, the Pirates, the Nationals or a team of that nature would snap him up and be happy to do so. As for Rivas, I think it's even more likely he would have been. Pitchers with that type of talent seldom make it through the rule 5.