Warning Track Power

I keep hemming and hawing over Prince v. Greinke but today I think I am leaning more toward this line of thinking as well. I know what 2009 and 2010 looked like without good pitching but if we re-sign Prince, we could have basically the same team in place next season for another try in 2012 extending this window by a year. After the 2012 season, we let Greinke walk and attempt to re-sign Marcum. At that point, we would hope Peralta, Thornburg and maybe Jungmann and/or Bradley would all be ready or competing for a spot in the rotation. While we no doubt would take a little swoon after 2012 minus Greinke in the rotation, the hope is that with Gallardo and Marcum re-signed, Narveson still around, that two of Peralta, Thornburg, Jungmann and Bradley could be in the rotation and maybe become the next Sheets or Yo. With our farm system in its current state, I think it is far more likely we find Greinke's replacement in house than the .300/.400/.550-.600, 40 HR, 120 RBI that Prince brings to the table.

I'm having a difficult time deciding which one of these games I want to buy this year. I will only buy one, as I cannot bring myself to buy two different football games even though they are two completely different versions of football. I generally am a NCAA guy because I typically refuse to play a franchise with anyone other than the Packers, but don't have that problem in NCAA where I can avoid playing the Badgers pretty easily. I bought NCAA 11 last year and absolutely loved it. Excellent video game that I always enjoy. Problem is everything I have read makes me believe NCAA 12 is really just an updated roster version of NCAA 11 and I could probably make due with NCAA 11 to whet my appetite for college football and the Packers success in 2010 and hopefully in 2011 has really made me want to play Madden. The problem I am having now is, Madden always feels rehashed. Always. I know sports games generally are nothing more than updated rosters, but with Madden I always feel like I could pop in my Madden 2006 copy and not much would be different. Madden doesn't come out until next Tuesday so I know reveiwing that game is futile until next week but I am hoping someone who owns both NCAA 11 and NCAA 12 could give a little insight if they felt it was worth it to purchase 12. I'm sure playing for the new Big 10 Championship plus the Leaders and Legends Divisions would be pretty awesome, but so would trying to repeat as champions for the Packers. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

For those of us who double as Packer fans, I apologize but this is an important reminder about overconfidence and that nothing is over until the magic number is 0: http://www.bestsportsphotos.com/images/t_18880_07.jpg

All assuming Prince leaves: *Based on their performances this season, and assuming they do not retire, I fully expect to see Saito and Hawkins back in the bullpen in 2012, with them splitting the 8th Inning duties currently held by K-Rod. *Gamel will be at 1B. Wouldn't be surprised to see a D. Lee type as a backup 1B to start vs. LH. *Greinke will be extended. (Majority of Prince $ goes here) *Marcum will be extended. (Rest of Prince $ goes here) *Wolf will be traded in a deal for a SS. (Thinking the Red Sox may work. Lowrie or Iglesias. Some kind of trade like this to get a decent SS. Gives the team financial flexibility as well). *YuBet is bought out *Nyjer Gomez will be our CF *Hairston will be the new Counsell

I think it is mandatory to the fan base that one of Greinke/Prince are re-signed. I'm not talking about to the die hards that post on here that just want the Brewers to be competitive year in and year out. I think it is mandatory to the Brewer product perception and to the bottom line of the Brewers that one of them are re-signed. I doubt the Brewers will be able to continue to pull in the band wagon and fair weather fans needed to get to 3 million fans, if both are allowed to leave via FA. Same old Brewers will be the cry from those fans who will only come back after years of being mediocre allows us enough time to draft and develop a new farm system equivalent to Fielder, Braun, Weeks, Hardy and Hart. Even us die hards, without being privy to the Brewer financials, all seem to believe that the finances are there to afford one more mega contract. I know I for one believe it is mandatory to keep one. If Greinke won't re-sign, I say pay Fielder. After seeing the Weaver deal, I don't believe we should go to $20MM AAV for Greinke. The Weaver deal seems appropriate and if Greinke is deadset on more then I'd go to the amount needed for Prince, deal Hart, McGehee, Wolf and whoever else is becoming expensive, and fill in the gaps around Braun, Fielder, Weeks and Lucroy (Gamel RF, Schafer at CF, Green 3B, SS prospect in a Hart or Wolf deal) as the everyday core and build around Yo, Axford and a re-signed Marcum for the pitching core. As for re-signing Prince, if anyone is looking for Prince to do a hometown discount, I think you have to add years and not necessarily AAV. For example, if the Cubs or Orioles were to offer Prince 8 years @ $200MM ($25MM AAV), and the Brewers were to come in at 10 years @ $200MM, I believe Prince would take the Brewers offer and not the others simply because of his comfort in Milwaukee and having been a Brewer since being drafted. Prince at 8 years takes him to age 36, 10 to age 38. While the Brewers would likely dread the end of the deal, I think Prince would realize that he likely won't be commanding too many more million as a FA year at age 36 given the way players with his body type GENERALLY age. Even if he were to get a 2 year $15MM or $20MM deal at age 36, that means he would have left the Brewers for $15MM more dollars. Pure speculation but I think Prince cares more abput his perception and his place in baseball history more than say $15 or $20 million dollars. Him and Ryan Braun very easily could be career Brewers and HOF together and own Milwaukee the way Robin Yount currently does. Like I've said previously, it may not be the best way to build a team on the field but the Brewers will not lose both Fielder and Greinke. I just don't see how that improves the Brewers purely from the name brand standpoint and business side of the sport in the short or long term.

I too would give this deal to Greinke in a heartbeat. $17MM AAV is $3.5MM AAV more than what he currently makes, which makes for a nice raise for Greinke. Additionally, look at this list and tell me Zack should be asking for much more: *Jered Weaver: 2012-2016 (5 years $85MM) *Justin Verlander: 2010-2014 (5 years $79.5MM) *Felix Hernandez: 2010-2014 (5 years $78MM) Without going too far into career statistics (because I don't have the time, being at work) I don't think you can consider Greinke any worse or any better than those three. This should be the extent of what the Brewers should go to for Greinke as I don't think the Brewers should be setting the market anytime soon for signing starting pitching. If Greinke all of a sudden were to come back and say 5 years, $100MM, I'd have to let him leave almost based on principle alone. The real underlying issue here for me is this...How will Prince's likely departure affect Greinke's willingness to stay in Milwaukee? As most reports at the time of the deal indicate Prince's presence in Milwaukee was a driving factor in Greinke waiving his no-trade clause, I'll be curious to see if Prince leaving via FA will make Greinke think twice about staying long term in Milwaukee.

I've become incredibly torn on this. I know we can't sign Greinke and Prince and we would likely be more competitive with Greinke than Prince, but I'm concerned about not bringing back Prince because he has undoubtedly become the leader of this team. With the way 2011 has played out, a Brewers team going forward minus Prince doesn't feel right. While it may not be feasible financially to bring back Prince I'm beginning to believe that Attanasio will instruct Melvin to explore shedding payroll in places like Wolf and Corey Hart after 2011 to give to Prince. Maybe its not the smartest move or the best way to build a lineup but if Braun, Weeks and a re-signed Prince are in place, I could see the Brewers filling the rest of the lineup with minimum salary veterans and or rookies i.e. Green at 3B, Gamel in RF, Lucroy at C, Schafer at CF, trade for a prospect SS. Like I said maybe its not feasible but I would think this conversation is being had by Brewers FO and is being given serious consideration.

Sorry Hawing! It was all I could think about once this list started. I saved myself from posting in this thread for this number specifically.

http://www.playerwives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/mlb.jpg How will Chris Carpenter explain being on this list to his son?

Absolutely. While his bat hasn't been spectacular so far, he provides exactly what Counsell did before this season. I like Hairston a lot.

I would do this. It would have to be a minor league deal with an invitation to spring training but it wouldn't hurt to kick the tires and see if he has anything left. It's all reward and no risk in that situation and who knows, maybe we catch lightning in the bottle. If not, we release him before the season. Like others have said, what depth in the bullpen?

I would do this in a heartbeat. I would even consider bringing him back in 2012 as well as the power PH role and occasional 1B start. This is the one type of player I believe the Brewer bench is missing right now that could hurt us down the stretch, in the NLDS & NLCS and in the World Series. As Igor said, he's an obvious DH in the World Series, but before then, he's the obvious PH when we're down a run late in the game and need one big hit. With our bench right now, we need two hits to get that one run. I say go get him. When all hands are on deck when Rickie and GoGo come back, we would have a fairly decent bench of: IF: Counsell IF/OF: Hairston, Kotsay OF: Gomez PH/DH/1B: Thome

I agree with you. I think if the roster was constructed a little bit differently his value would be more apparent to us fans. But when you have a bench full of punch and judy hitters like Wilson, Counsell, Kotsay and (to date) Lopez, his perceived value is almost nothing. Now, if our bench had some thump in other places, and looked more like: C: Kottaras IF/OF: Hairston, Kotsay, 2009 Lopez PH (Power): Branyan/Giambi-type I think we as fans would be more apt to give love to Kotsay and his contributions. Or if he was from Whitefish Bay.

My ideal preference in a dream world would be to: 1. Win the Division by 10+ games while setting the single season wins record. 96-66 would do for me, meaning a record 24-15 the rest of the way. 2. The D-Backs win the NL West. 3. The Giants go on a run and catch the Braves for the Wild Card. 4. NLDS: Brewers-Giants, Phillies-D-Backs. Don't care as long as we win 5. NLCS: Brewer-Phillies. As long as we win Realsitically, I am expecting: 1. Cards get hot, we cool off some and we win the division by 3 games. 21-18 the rest of the way. 93-69 record. 2. The Giants win the NL West. Braves win the Wild Card 3. NLDS: Brewers-Braves, Phillies-Giants. I think we will beat the Braves. I am not sold on the Phillies for some reason. Something doesn't sit right with me about them. I can't explain it. 4. NLCS: Brewers-Giants. Oh please, oh please, oh please http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

Going forward, looking at the Cardinals minus their big free agents (Pujols, Furcal, Carpenter, Jackson, Berkman) vs. the Brewers minus their big free agents (Fielder, K-Rod, Saito, Hawkins), you have to like where the Brewers stand in relation to the Cards. I know absolutely nothing about the state of the Cards system, however judging both teams on their remaining pieces, I think we are substantially better than the Cards. The Cards rotation will still sport Wainwright-Garcia, a very good 1-2, whereas the Brewers will still throw a Greinke-Gallardo-Marcum, an excellent 1-2-3. The Cards lineup looks very shallow minus Pujols and Berkman. Holliday and Freese are very good, but the lineup is filled with secondary or complementary hitters like Jay, Schumaker and Theriot. While Molina is a solid overall player who does hit in the clutch, he's not a Brian McCann or Buster Posey at the plate. The Brewers will return Braun, Rickie, Corey and an ever improving Lucroy; 2 studs and 2 plus everyday players. Gomez/Morgan in CF is the equivalent of Molina at C. Couple that with Gamel, who could match Freese's production, and McGehee who may never reach the heights of 2010 again, but it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. When looking at the composition of the teams minus the free agents, I have to believe the Brewers are a good 3-5 wins better than the Cards. Having said that, I expect the Cards to bring back Pujols, Carpenter and Berkman. With Pujols re-signed, plus Holliday's deal, they might be out of the market for Carpenter and Berkman. Even if they aren't though, in the case of Carpenter and Berkman, I don't know what to expect in terms of production with both beginning 2012 north of 35. I get the feeling this is the last hurrah for both but that might be more Cards hatred than fact. I'd still like the Brewers #1-#3 SP better and I tend to believe that, while we would be down one superstar to the Cards, assuming Fielder leaves, the sum of our entire lineup 1-8 vs. the Cards lineup 1-8, even with Pujols and Berkman re-signed, may be greater than that. In my opinion, the real long term threat are the Reds in 2012 and Reds and Pirates 2013.

(Just going off of my gut and no statistical analysis about players and schedules) I'm not quite ready to count Cincinnati out yet. They have had terrible years from most every starter not named Johnny Cueto. Arroyo, Wood, Volquez have been awful. Bailey has finally looked like he may reach his potential but he's still relatively unproven. Leake has been a strong #4 or #5. Wood and Volquez may just be experiencing a Sophomore Slump and a still recovering from TJ Surgery but Arroyo looks more and more like Jeff Suppan. Leake may develop into the #3 but I think that is probably a more realistic goal for 2012 and 2013. The talent on offense is obviously there and if just 1 of Volquez/Wood/Arroyo manage to turn back into the 2010 version of themselves or a #2 SP, I could see them catching fire at some point and rattling off a 16 of 20 streak. Combining a renewed #2 with Cueto at #1, Bailey at #3, Leake at #4 and Willis #5 is a good, deep staff. Cincinnati scares me...a lot.

Would you guys move him down in the order and out of either the leadoff spot or #5 in the order until he he got his timing back? Or would you simply sink or swim with him back in his typical spots in the lineup?

The title of the thread explains most of the question. Rickie Weeks comes back after the Minor League season is over in September and needs some sort of rehab assignment to get his timing back. How is he going to do it? What are his options? The most likely option in my opinion is deal with it, throw him into the everyday lineup and hope he plays through it and we make the playoffs with him rounding into form. If I were RR, I think I would play him everyday, as long as his ankle can handle it. I also would take him out of the pressure packed leadoff spot or #5 hole and allow him to gradually work his way back and hopefully not affect the lineup too badly while he knocks the rust off. If I were RR, I'd bat him 7th in the order to relieve that pressure. Assuming Rickie's return is after the MiLB season ends, what will RR do?

Classiest K ever!

CASEY!!! Keep coming back!!!

This is the way to do it. Let us show the Cards what true classiness is by beating them on the field with clean hard fought wins...and then celebrate by bringing back Untuckem as a "victory over the Cardinals-only" celebration.

Gomez's loss hasn't truly been felt too badly yet, but I for one can't believe how fast he became one of my favorite Brewers with his all out play and how much I miss seeing him in CF. I hope the rumors of a quick recovery are true. I'd love to have him and Rickie back before September 1.

For comparison's sake I got to thinking this morning about the Cardinals and how everyone hates them. I think it is fair to say that they are, without a doubt, the biggest rival for the Brewers, Reds and Cubs. This reminds me of the Packers and the rest of the NFC North and them being the Vikings, Bears and Lions biggest rival as well. The difference is the level of respect that the Packers garner from the other teams. Sure the other fans/teams hate the Packers, but there really isn't anything outwardly offensive about them. Maybe the other NFC North fans don't like Rodgers' Title Belt or Driver's shuffle, but that stuff is generally done out of fun or enjoyment of the game. Not only that, it is difficult to hate a team from a town of 100,000 people that is publicly owned when the Cowboys, Eagles or Redskins spend gobs and gobs of money and they haven't won a Super Bowl in almost 20 years. Certainly you hate the team because they win, but you respect them because they are well run, have fun and respect the game in a manner that isn't condescending. Comparing that to the Cardinals. The Cubs are an historic rival for them so their is an obvious hatred. However, the Brewers and Reds rivalry seems completely based on these unwritten rules and their genuinely better than you attitude. It truly irks me as a fan of MLB in general that Pujols is placed on a pedestal and isn't drilled in his... the next AB after a HR. The man literally watches a HR until it lands...every..single..time. Braun does this today and he is drilled the next AB. However, if we were to do this to Pujols, we as "idiot fans" would receive Professor LaRussa's dissertation on Baseball Etiquette 050 (We aren't educated enough to understand Baseball Etiquette 101). I know this was discussed last night, but why would we ever hit Pujols on purpose with no outs and 2 guys on with a 1 run lead? To retaliate goes beyond the unwritten rules of baseball. It becomes dangerous when someone throws 97 on purpose anywhere at another player...TWICE! This kind of stuff ruins baseball. I cannot imagine being a Cardinals fan with TLR at the helm. Would I trade their record for ours since TLR came to StL? Absolutely, but I don't think I would have as much fun rooting for the team. How much fun can it be to win but to lose the fun experience of winning as a fan? Had 2008 occurred under TLR there would have been no "Untuckem" or in 2011 no Tony Plush. Baseball is a game and its meant to be fun and full of personality. I'd much rather have our history and deal with the RR's of the world where I can have fun and truly get the full experience of fun as a fan of baseball.

Greg: My perspective and why I come to the conclusions about L.A/Phoenix/Houston v. N.Y./Boston/Philadelphia...I do live in L.A. and have lived here for 30 years. The fans here generally do not pour their heart and soul into any team, the Lakers and USC football included. It is more about being seen and being popular when you root for those teams rather than being a diehard. The fanbase here is frontrunner defined. When they're good, everyone is a fan. When they're bad, they can turn to another team or another form of entertainment and completely ignore the team altogether until they are good again. Case in point USC now or the Lakers between Shaq's last game and Pau Gasol's first. Believe me when I say that most of my friends don't quite understand the depth at which I root for the Brewers, Packers and Badgers. To a man, I cannot find one friend in Southern California who understood why I had tears in my eyes when Braun hit the HR to beat the Cubs in Septmber 2008. Fans in Phoenix are very similar. I don't know if it is the transplant nature of residents of Southern California and Arizona in general that makes them relatively ambivalent to sports teams when they aren't succeeding, but isn't the passion for the teams here that is prevalent in other places like Chicago, New York and even Wisconsin, when the team is awful. Have I lived in Philly, New York or Boston? No I have not, however I do know people from there who tell me about the difference in sports culture in these cities versus L.A. I can also tell you that there weren't any stories about lifelong Angel fans crying at gravestones of dead family members when they won the World Series like there were when the Red Sox won the World Series. Nor are the local sports shows jammed packed with USC football or UCLA basketball phone calls when they are expected to be bad. The Clippers get no love here because no one wants to root for the loser when the glamorous Lakers are in town. Think of Wisconsin. Even when the Packers are expected to be average, think pre-2006 season, there is still a buzz and excitement and they will be talked about to no end. The other day, the Dodgers game summary, which is usually front and center on the first page of the L.A. Times sports section was 4 paragraphs long on Page 6. When the Brewers are awful, do they get moved to Page 6 in the JS? Does it really take a special type of player to play in NYC or Boston? I would say yes. The passionate fanbase in these places almost demands around the clock coverage of these players. There is no back page of the New York Post in L.A. or Arizona. Greg you said it yourself: "I'm willing to believe that a certain special kind of player *can't* play in NYC -- a player who is unusually attentive to the media, unusually afraid of failure, and unusually sensitive." If you don't mind being on display at all times then Boston and New York are probably you're thing. If you don't mind blending in with all the celebrities and not having it be a big deal when you are at dinner, I think L.A. is more your speed. I know New York has its celebs as well, but being a Yankee, Knick, Giant or Jet appears to be more glamorous and more appealing to the public in New York than being a Laker, Dodger or Angel is to the general public in L.A. Just sharing my experience.

The next 9 games will show us a lot about where we stand. 3 at home against StL, 3 at Houston and 3 at StL. At worst we have to be 3-3 against StL and win the series against Houston. I'm all for optimism and thinking we can win each series and get a 6-3 record, but I will more than settle for a series split against StL and a series win against Houston. We cannot afford to go 5-4, but have a 2-4 record against StL with a sweep against Houston.