Thurston Fluff

For the first time in recent memory I thought the advantage the Brewers had over the rest of the divison was depth. With Wainwright and now Pujols that will certainly test the Cards now. The Cubs probalby can't afford an injuries like the Brewers did with Weeks, YoGa and Riske and, if history tells us anything, they will have to as well. If not and they get lucky injury wise they pretty much get the division because of it.

I think you're probably right JJ. I'm more interested in what he can do know that we paid him. Not much use in crying over spilt HGH.

I'd love the opponent's pitcher to intentionally hit 4 or 5 guys a night. I bet the players feel differantly about that than you do. Even if the injury factor is low having to constantly play with welts and bruises isn't going to help players productivity any. After the allstar break we'll be down to a bunch of guys with slider bat speed limping around the bases because they can't run anymore. Not really a compelling brand of baseball to watch. There is no need to change the rules when there is a system in place to monitor that sort of thing already.

We will see if he can be league average. It is possible. I just don't know if giving a guy $10 million dollars for being league average makes all that much sense. I don't think it's as much paying that for league average as it is hoping at this point he can be league average an earn some of that money. They paid it in the hope he was better and if he was only average it was at the very least not money completely wasted. If they would have said at the beginning of the season they hoped he would be average then I'd say it was stupid. I think they felt he was going to be better than that but now are willing to live with average for the remainder year.

As a stat guy you should realize that fumbling a football has a far greater chance of allowing the opponent to score than putting someone on first with one out. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif If you allow teams to hit your players without fear of retaliation I think you end up with a team afraid to get hit and allow the pitcher to take control of the inside of the plate and your pitcher will not have the same luxery. I'm sure you can see the problem that can cause.

Moving Bush down to make way for Weaver and McClung based on one or two starts is a sign of a bad franchise. I don't think they would do it based on the results of those starts as much as what they actually see in him. Something you tend to underestimate IMHO is scouts and coaches actually can see what's going one with a player and base a lot of their decisions on that instead of just looking at stats. ERA, K's, BB's all rely on other people. Even things like K's and BB's can be deceiving in small samples due to AAA umpires and minor league players swinging at balls. Bad fields and fielders effect other aspects of the game. When Doug watches tape of Weaver he can see more of what he really is than merely relying on stats that have so much noise effecting them.

Excellent take JB. On baseball tonight one of them commented on how that was the way it was supposed to be done. One guy gets hit, the other team retaliates, player takes his base, no benches clear and all is done. It's no coincidence that both managers came from the era and team where that was the norm. McCLung is sort of growing on me. He seems like a throw back type guy. Combine his attitude with his heat and erratic control and he can intimidate. It doesn't hurt that he's pitched well in three of his four starts either.

The Brewers have lost 2 games in which they have led going into the 9th, and Mota pitched the 9th in one of them. Simply put, the math above is incorrect, and nothing more needs to be said I don't know how the math would take into account the extra workload blown saves cost the bullpen though. The Brewers ahve more extra inning games than any team in the league in large part because Gagne couldn't hold the lead he had in the 9th. The Brewers may have won a majority of those games but at what cost to the pen long term. I don't know if ten games is accurate but I also beleive the cumulative innings means more than two games will be lost due to an ineffective closer. Regardless of the outcome I still think it was worth the risk becuase niether of those contracts are going to haunt us after this season. I don't think the contracts will prevent the Brewers from trading for a player they want to make a run this year. Ultimatley I think it amounts to 15 million of Mark A's money wasted more than 15 million the Brewers could have spent making the team better this year. That is assuming Cameron's moeny is considered a complete waste which I don't. Gagne well...

It doesn't matter which was 'better' its a bonehead move to put anyone on in front of the 2nd best hitter in the league this year. Never said it wasn't. All I was doing is responding to the commnet that Yost's move was tactically stupid but Coopers wasn't. Taken in that context I'd still say it is dumber to put a bonfide base stealer on in front of a power hitter as opposed to a non stealer in fornt of one. That is not to say one is dumb and the other isn't. Both are it's just one has a higher % chance of scoring than the other.

Point being, when is there ever a point in time where the PLAYERS are responsible? I think it's every point in time. That's my biggest beef witht he whole Yosting thing. They never seem to recognize yost gets Yosted by his players all the time. I simply asked if anyone here thought bringing in Tavarez was a good move. No I'd have had someone else in instead. But Mota isn't exaclty lights out at the moment and Dillard is unproven. Still for myself I'd have went with unproven instead of someone who has proven himself to be pretty bad. Even though I like him I've always been able to admit I don't like Yost's bullpen decisions. He's been better this year largely because he has more tlaent to work with out there but still... Big difference in thinking. Coop got to make a point without any impact on his tactical management of the inning. Yost made a point at the expense of the tactical management of the inning. Really? Tejada on base in front of Berkman means Berkman has to hit at least a double to score Tejada. Braun has the ability to steal second and all Prince has to do is hit a single to score Braun. So the tactical management would seem to favor Ned on this one. Quite frankly it's not a good idea to put anyone on in fornt of either of those guys but if I was to forced to chose between putting Tejada on first in front of Berkman or Braun on first in front of prince I'd put Tejada on every time.

I'm not nearly as sure of that as you are. They did hire a manager who had a worse record after 4 years than Yost did his first 4 here didn't they? If Ned has a winning record this year (considering the schedule ahead he most liklely will) he will have had a .500 or better record 3 of the last 4 years with a payroll roughly 90 million less than the Sox did in the same period of time. I think most of us here don't really know how the rest of baseball sees Yost and the job he's done here. He has, after all, taken one of the worst franchises in baseball and managed to make them into a winning club with one of the youngest teams in the league. I fully unsderstand that he has not done this by himself but if you look at the Brewers from the outside looking in the manager does get viewed as a postitive part of that transformation. I have no doubt what so ever that he most certainly would get another job managing and wouldn't be at all surprsied if it was with one of the big name teams. but if we must I will use the Yost arguement for Francona in Philly, too many injuries at the wrong time. Ned has had his share of injuries as well. In the only year he didn't have at least a .500 record in the last 4 years he lost 3/5ths of his starting staff. He's lost Sheets several years in a row. Jenkins was lost in his allstar year. Weeks, Hardy, YoGa, Okha, Cappy...the list goes on, So no I don't buy Francona having had worse luck injury wise than Yost at all. Paul Byrd and Andy Ashby were terrible, Pat Burrell was a rookie, Scott Rolen and Bobby Abreu were the only offensive bright spots So why does Francona get some slack when his players are terrible and not Yost? We had Turnbow and Kolb as closers for heavens sake. Yost has worked with scrap heap bullpens every year he's been here until this year. He worked with reclaimation projects like Clark and Po so I really don't think this line of reasoning help's your case in any way. If anything it only strengthens my case that all thing being equal Francona isn't as good as Yost. As for Burell being a rookie I don't think Francona has had to play with as many rookies at key spots all over like Yost has yet Yost managed a winning record with all that youth so no excuse there. Rolen and Abreu might have been the only bright spots offensively but they were probably better than Jenkins and Sexon which were the only two bright spots when Ned didn't have winning teams for the Brewers. I don't think Francona is bad mind you I just think Yost isn't either. Looking at both of them under fairly similar circumstances Yost had the better of it. Thus I have no doubt under similar circumstance in Boston Ned would have the better of it as well. I'm sure Boston would see the same thing if they ended up looking for another manager. Yes, for the most part it is, and Francona was brought up in the first place as a means of supporting Yost. Actually no it wasn't. It was just the opposite. For the record since Francona got fired the Phillies only had one losing season and that was by one game.

sheethead if Francona is making the Sox so good why did he fail so misreably in Philly? He had 4 losing season's and no winnning ones. He finished with a 65-96 record his final year. Ned by comparison never had that many losses in any season withthe Brewers. Not even the first two were he had no talent to speak of. In his four year stint there he managed to complie a 285-362 record. What about that shows you he can make bad teams good? Ned by comparison has a career record unitl this year is 374-435. This year that winning % is slowly getting better, not worse, like Francona's did in Philly. I realize Ned's winning % is nothing to write home about but I kind of think Fancona would have liked to have had that over what he had in Philly. All in all I'll stand by my statement that the Sox make Francona look good and not the other way around.

Contradiction? If he factors so little into winning games, then what exactly is he doing a good job at? I thought i just went over a whole list of things he does well. A manager cannot make a player better than his skill set allows. He can allow that same player to slack off and not play hard all the time. Terry Francona does not Yost the Red Sox, and is an awesome interview. I have watched many Boston games and have never questioned his decision making. You could say many, but I wouldn't say any. Give Yost a $150 million payroll and allstars at every position and I kind of think he'd be a better manager and interview. It'd be nice to call up players only when they are ready to be in the bigs instead of having to bring them along to learn on the job like Ned had done wiht half this team. It's pretty darn easy to win when you have everything handed to you. Need and extra starter? No problem we'll plunk down 30 million just for the right to negotiate with an allstar caliber player. Need a little more pop in the lineup we'll by an allstar slugger. As far as how well Franona does in interviews that goes hand in hand with winning. Lot easier to be nice and happy with reporters when everything is going well.

I can't remember anyone naming something that he does consistently well. I have on numerous occasions in fact if you go back to enough of my posts on this thread you should be able to find several of them but to refresh your memory, I'm more than happy to list some of my reasons for liking him. He makes the players play hard all the time. He keeps them on an even keel even when things aren't going well. He never throws a player under the bus publicly. He communicates well with his players. For an example of this just read the JS today were he told Torres to be ready to pitch more than one inning. He doesn't BS his players. For an example of this the JS had a quote from Villy about how Ned told him he still viewed him long term as a starter and Villy made a comment about how he has never been lied to by him before. He doesn't make knee jerk reactions when players are struggling and allows them enough time to sink or swim so there is no excuse when he does pull the plug. Considering how long we suffered without a winning season It should be noted that he has been .500 or better two of the last three years (the only years it could reasonably be expected of him considering where he started from). The year he didn't have at least an even record was when the pitching staff lost half it's starters. He's on his way to another winning season this year. He managed to take scrap heap players like Kolb, Davis, and Turnbow and get something out of nothing with them. He allows young players to work their way up and make mistakes and still demands professionalism out of them. He pretty much does everything well except manage the pen IMO. I'd bet any team we thought was an 83-85 win type team and they outperformed that expectation we'd all say the manager did a nice job. How many people were on the Giradi bandwagon? The guy never even got his team to .500 and needlessly burned out some very nice young pitcher's arms in the process. So far this year his Yankee team hasn't really done anything special yet I'm sure plenty of people would still prefer him to Yost. Even though he has a worse record with the Yankees than Yost does with the Brewers. LaRussa last year had some here praising him for a losing season because if Ned was running tha team they'd have lost twice as many games. Nobody ever mentioned what LaRussa did to make him so good. Yet anyone who might like Yost and sees where the team is this year with the talent he has need to have a ready list of things that make us feel Ned has done an above average job.

Totally agree with you on Villy JB. In the long run it might be a blessing in disguise for them to have this break. It's not the best way to keep a guy fresh for August but the silver lining is they should be fresh then. meanwhile it happened when the starters are on a decent roll and the pen isn't getting abused or the team getting crushed by their absence.

Instead we have 83-85 win talent and need a manager to add not subtract wins from that to make the playoffs. Just read in the JS this morning how there is a whopping 4 teams in baseball that have winning records on the road this year. The Brewers are one of the teams who have played the most road games in baseball. With the Brewers above .500 and on pace for 85 wins so far and more home than road games ahead that should mean more than 85 wins shouldn't it? I guess Ned must be doing something right.

The comments do mean something. Its a direct reflection of his incompetence. I guess every competent manager never once lied to the press. What Ned says to the press has no bearing on his competence what so ever. If he was worried about how people viewed him he would be more straight with the press. Instead of saying - I wanted Villy to build his confidence and didn't want to risk what we've built on so far with another inning, in that park, agisnt the heart of the order, I went to Mota. It wasn't my fault that Mota blew chuncks. - He says - Mota is my guy in that inning and hes' done a great job so far in that role. - The next day we see Villy go two and Torres pitch in the 8th inning instead of Mota. Mota doesn't get thrown under the bus Villy doesn't' come off as mentally weak and everybody feels like their manager is going to do everything he can to protect them.

You could tell Mota wasn't on, so why keep him in? I don't necessarily think the error was bringing in Mota, it was not removing him sooner. totally agree with that. Though Shouse isn't a great option in Coors he should have been in earlier or someone else should have been up beside him. Ned had been better this season with the pen IMO but he still has a ways to go. You don't put some old journeyman in just because he had one good game. Actually his 330BA, 360OBP and 543 Slugging was done over 42 games this season. Cameron had been absolutely brutal at the plate recently striking out about half the time and getting few hits or walks the other half. I'd still agree with Cameron in for defense if Kapler was a butcher in the field but he isn't too shabby himself.

You also say "his confidence was not high"? What have you been watching? He'd been lights out in 4 straight (5 if you count last night) relief appearences where he had fanned 12 and walked zero in 7 innings. I guess I was watching more than 7 innings of his this year. He has been great in the limited time he has pitched lately. Part of the reason for that is the limited number of batters he has faced in his last 5 outings. 7 innning in 5 outings appears to me to be a sign that Ned is limiting his exposure until he's certain Villy is back to where he should be. Locating all his pitches when he wants in any count like he has in the past when he was effective. Coors is not the place to tempt fate when there are other options to go to. Especially when two of his four pitches are not going to do what he wants them to. As far as his changeing speeds go you are right. However his mediocre fastball and change are not going to be as effective without his curve and slider mixed in. Villy needs to have all his pitches working to be effective since none of them are spectacular on their own. Way easier to sit on an 88 MPH fastball when the only other option he has is a changeup that good hitter will foul off. That means perhaps one inning of exposure is probably enough for the opposition to see what he has and adjust to it if allowed. I'm not defending Yost as much as I am myself because, as I said, I thought it was the right move before it blew up. It'd be a bit hypocritcal of me not to admit that now. AS i said if Mota and Shouse did what they are paid to do it doesn't look like a bad move at all. If Villy went out and blew chuncks I have no doubt others would have been saying the same thing about the game being Yosted. Probably for all the reasons I have for why it was a good move regardless of how it turned out.

Since I thought it was the rihgt move last night before it backfired I guess I should admit that now. Villy did look fine but he has had his share of problems this season. His confidence was not very high and he just managed to get through the 7th with no problem in a notoriously hitter friendly park. Being a soft tosser who needs to locate his pitches in a place that isn't conducive to that type of pitcher I don't think his tossing one good innning automatically means he's going to have the same thing happen the next inning. See Brian Shouse for an example of what happens to that type of pitcher there. Mota has a better fastball and is a veteran setup guy used to that role and that park from his days in LA. It wasn't a bad move IMO it just didn't work. Part of Ned's job is to get young players like Villy into situations to rebuild his shaken confidence and avoid bad situations that could hamper it. He did that. What he didn't get was a good performance out of his two veteran relievers. But of course it couldn't possibly be the fault of the player not performing to the level they have all season long. It always has to be the manager's fault.

Sad day. The Carol Burnett show, Bill Cosby, SNL and Monty Python were my early comedy inspirations. One ofthe greatest sketch humor shows ever IMO. Korman was such a great straitch man for Conway. If there was a hall of fame for sketch humor the Dentist bit would be a first ballot for sure. Probably the single best bit ever. kind of sad that not only is he gone but it seems like the whole prime time sketch comedy genre is as well. Even SNL is pretty lame these days.

41 + shoulder surgery = retirement. Sad but not as sad as someone young forced to retire before they got the chance to play at all. He's done everything he could doin baseball and won his fair share. So I'm not going to shed any tears for him other than the pain of having to go through surgery and rehab.

If I was to meet Bill Hall in person I'd tell him how much I respected his work and team oriented approach to the game. I'd tell him how much his off field work has meant to the community. I'd tell him how good of an example he was to young kids. I'd also tell him he needs to be productive or all of that other stuff counts for very little. I'd tell him I agree with the team about his relegation to the small side of a platoon. Since most of us don't get that opportunity to say that to his face we are left with little choice but to voice our opinions with a applause or boos. This is a situation where both are warranted so I guess if I was at the game I'd boo while clapping my hands. Regardless of what happens from here on out though I am a fan of his and will always appreciate and remember him positively.

While no one thinks they'll keep that pace up, what if they simply play like the 88 win team that most expected before the season started? That's STILL 94 wins. True but I think if the team was an 88 win type team and plays way above their head for a portion of the season it is equally reasonable to think they will play well below that 88 win pace for a period of time as well. All in all though I've been far more interested in how the Brewers play and am willing to let the chips fall where they will. If the Cubs are really that good it shouldn't make us less happy if the Brewers win 90 games should it?

Speed is something you either have or don't. So it may be a samller group of people capable of playing center due to the lack of speed but still be easier for those who do have speed to play center. I would assume those who do have speed but can't play center very well end up as corner OF because they cause less damage there.