KeithStone53151

The problem though is that in proving your point you disprove your point. Earlier it was said you do whats best for MKE not the big market team who buys him next. Ok so 4 years Randy HOF Johnson was dominant but struggled. He caught fire and poof FA. Miller was tried as a starter for years. Caught fire at 27 in the pen. He was a 3.1 war at 32. His career war is 8.7. Thats 6 pretty amazing years in the pen offset by some negatives leading up to 27. So what's best for MKE. A shot at a 2-3 year window where he could become an ace. Or every controlled year bringing in close to 3 war? Do we capitalize off of his talents now or do we groom him for something bigger in the hopes it'll 1... happen and 2... happen while he's still here. 1st go round... 47 ip... on pace for 3 war in 80 ip. Is it worth the risk that you could mess that up? Miller was a starter until 27. His best war was +.1. His last 4 years he piled up the majority of his value. We talk about Hader being a poor mans miller but the fact is that hader accomplished more baseball value in his first 47 ip than miller did before the age of 29. So your argument is you'd rather take what you see as a virtually guaranteed dominant late inning reliever to pair with Knebel versus gamble on a potential stud starting pitcher that may take some time to develop? First off, what do you mean 2-3 year window? If Hader can get to 150-160 innings this year, he'll be virtually unrestricted next year. Maybe skip a start or 2 if we are looking at playoffs. He's under team control for at least 5 more years. If he's an absolute superstar SP in his late 20s, imagine what we can get for his last 1-2 years of team control in prospect value. Heck we could wait to the deadline of his last year and get a haul for half a year of Hader. And that's not including us potentially offering an extension to buy out a year or two of free agency. It's not a question, if you think Hader has a reasonable shot to be a dominant SP...that's the route you go. No brainer. No reliever is as valuable as an ace starting pitcher.

Ya know, with us rolling an 8 man bullpen and short bench(my assumption)...this isn't a ridiculous notion that he be potentially used as a pinch hitter if the rest of the bench gets used in extra innings or if he's pitching in a blow up start and needs to go 3-4 innings early on. He's surely more productive than most pitchers with the bat.

This isn't quite "counsell is gonna get fired if we miss the playoffs" territory, but it's close. That's about all I've got for this thread.

The base is non-guaranteed. That's been specifically noted. Stearns also specifically said he will be competing for a spot in the rotation and bullpen, he has incentives in place for both scenarios.

I have to think Gallardo is more likely to land in the bullpen than rotation, but it also seems like this could be a competition thing. Hader/Suter/Guerra/Gallardo...go out there and earn the 5th rotation spot. The losers get bullpen duty(or cut in Guerra's case). I like it.

The base is non-guaranteed. That's been specifically noted. Stearns also specifically said he will be competing for a spot in the rotation and bullpen, he has incentives in place for both scenarios.

Which makes this a better deal IMO. Such a tradeable contract if he pitches to expectation and we are not in contention. If we are in contention it likely means he is performing and then it is a great signing. Chacin probably isn't the type of guy that would be sought after at the deadline. But he very easily could be a trade candidate next offseason if prospects pan out. One year of a cost controlled starter on a contract year...

Liking this more and more. If he's a bust as a starter, he's a $6 million reliever to get righties out next year. Right, it's an overpay for a reliever if he doesn't work out...but not like paying Garza 12 million to be a mop up man for half the year. It's not a terrible contract in that case. Could be a gem if he can do 5-7 innings of 2-3 runs per outing in the majority of his starts again.

I agree that it's unfair to ever compare anyone to a Hall of Famer. There just aren't many other guys to compare Hader to, because I have never seen anyone make guys like Bryce Harper and Joey Votto look foolish. So, Hader is 23 and had 12.84 K/9 and 4.15 BB/9 in his first season in the majors as a 23 year old. Johnson made it to the Expos in 1988 (born 9/10/63, so he was around 25 when he was called up), when he threw 26 innings. The Expos traded him to the Mariners during his rookie season, a year in which he struck out 7.26/9, while walking 5.38/9. He didn't get his K/9 above 10 until 1991 when he was 27/28 years old, and that year he walked 6.79/9. It wasn't until 1993 that he finally learned to keep his walks down. Even while walking guys like crazy, he had value as a starter, accumulating 10 WAR in those 4+ seasons, and averaging around 6 innings per start. Once he got some control, he became a dominant force who somehow was able to keep it up for a looong career. I would guess that some here would have been lobbying for the 25 year old who couldn't throw strikes and only had two pitches to be moved to the bullpen, or just kept in the minors until he learned how to throw strikes. Heck, the Expos traded him away. Fortunately, the Mariners saw enough from a guy who had definite control issues and who threw his fastball/slider combo around 95% of the time to keep him in the rotation. Eventually the control came around and his tertiary pitches got good enough for him to throw them around 10-15% of the time and he became the Randy Johnson everyone knows. Comparing anyone to Randy Johnson is unfair, but we have a guy who can do things to hitters that other pitchers just cannot do. We need to try to maximize the value of this guy while we have him because, as others have said, he is the best option we've had for a homegrown #1 starter since Ben Sheets. By the way, even with the walks, Johnson was often able to keep his WHIP in the low 1's because he was so hard to hit, but he never posted a 0.99 WHIP like Hader had in his age 23 season... but Hader will never be a starter because of his control issues. You make many good points. So many of you think "this is what he is" with Hader...that he's a finished product at age 23 and won't improve/adjust. Sale has had years and years at the mlb level to work on and hone his changeup. Hader's has been improving his entire time in the majors. I can again point back at the stat of how many top tier SP started their career relying heavily on the fastball, throwing it 65-70% of the time...which is not far off from how often Hader uses his. And to those saying using Hader 3 times a week is more valuable than every 5 days as a starter clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Good bullpen pitchers generally throw 80 innings in a season...80 is a lot. Starters throw 200. Would you rather have 200 good innings or 80 good innings? In this case, Hader would be limited to 160ish most likely...160 > 80 last I checked.

It appears to be slightly frontloaded. $1.5M signing bonus with 8 in 2018 and 6 in 2019.

And this is why it was necessary to sign another "proven" guy like Chacin. I like Woodruff, and think that he should be a lock for the 2018 rotation. I also think Hader should be given a shot. I love prospects, but that is plenty of "unproven" for a rotation. We needed some "proven," and Chacin gives us that. At some point in the season, guys like Wilkerson and Burns will get called up. By 2019, this year's rookies will have a lot more experience and we'll be able to make decisions for next year with a lot more information than we have now. But we really needed to get someone else in there, we couldn't go into the season with Anderson and Davies being the only guys with any kind of a track record in the rotation. Chacin averaged near 6 innings per start from June forward. Looking at game logs, he was often pulled with a pitch count in the low 90s and even upper 80s...which tells me he was pulled for offense and could have gone deeper. From June forward, the most runs he allowed in a game was 5 and he did that once. 4 runs twice, the rest 3 or less. Stability, consistency, eat innings and keep us in the game...it's what many including myself have been clamoring for in this 5th rotation spot considering we will likely give 2 rotation spots to young starters to open the season. 2/16 is less years, AAV, and much lower percentage of our likely max payroll than the Garza/Suppan deals of the past. Also, we are getting age 30 and 31 season from Chacin. Not quite peak seasons, but he's not THAT old and doesn't have too much wear on his arm. I like the deal, I wish it was one year but we probably can move the contract next year if he pitches decent and prospects are banging down the door.

The Gagne signing was pretty bad. We did get some positives from Garza and Suppan at points during their contracts. Gagne was dreadful from his first outing on.

If the right deal for any player in all of baseball presented itself, they'd be in Milwaukee...so your comment is meaningless. Certain moves can serve as indicators of whether other moves are more or less likely. The Giants trading away Span is an indicator that they will make a move for outfield help. The Brewers signing Chacin is an indicator that Stearns will be less inclined to target SP.

Per MLB Trade Rumors Get this guy hurling 40-50% sliders or more, which is clearly his best pitch. Even better results hopefully would follow.

Agreed. We were never getting a top notch pitcher on a one year deal. I'd rather go this route than pay a Lynn/Cobb anywhere near their asking price. I wouldn't say this completely closes the door on a big trade for Archer, but making that move likely means Hader to the pen...which would be nothing short of disappointing.

Substitute Gallardo for Hader, Gallardo to the pen. That makes more sense.

You mean that one year that he wasn't in Colorado? His numbers look like a solid, serviceable guy. I'm not familiar with what he throws. Also, this isn't a done deal yet. Closing in on an agreement...

Thoughts? I'm not familiar with this guy.

Don't discount the contract for Longoria. 4/72 is a lot for the Rays, that's probably more of a burden for them than brauns contract is for us. They get likely a 2nd division regular and 2 lottery ticket arms, while taking a bad contract that is up after this year. Longoria is also 32. This move to me signals a re-tool, not rebuild. They have the farm and arms in the farm that they can probably get back to contending in a year or two, but this year has a bleak look to it.

Krook and Woods are on the back end of their top 30, based on their numbers have good stuff but serious control issues. 6 bb/9 range for both guys.

Span, Arroyo, Krook, Woods in the deal.

I also read that Span is headed to Tampa in the deal. This could open the door for Broxton to SF.

For sure. I discuss this with friends of large market teams all the time that just don't get it. Any mistake that the Brewers make is amplified because the resources of the MLB is nowhere close to equal. I'm not blind to that at all. It's why Stearns approach is probably for the best. But I just want to win. I want to stop being a doormat to other franchises. I think the people of Wisconsin would go crazy if we figured out a way to win one and contend for awhile. I get so aggravated when I see these national sportswriters go on facebook/twitter and say a salary cap wouldn't help with competitive balance, it would just help greedy owners pocket extra money. I mean, are they just that stupid? Don't they find it a bit strange that only a handful of teams sign all the best free agents every year? And until recently ended up with the best international free agents and prospects? Do they wonder why the yankees/dodgers/red sox/cubs/etc are consistently in the playoffs while most of the small markets can go extended stretches of time without making the playoffs? I know I strayed a bit off topic, but the big market advantage is frustrating enough...I don't want to see national sportswriters trying to say it isn't an advantage.

I would say my attitude at this point is more "bored" than losing patience. Everything is getting to a standstill because Boras is a prick and overpricing his players to a preposterous degree. $200 million for Arrieta/Martinez, yeah I'll have what he's having. The delay in free agency is likely delaying many trades that Stearns is hoping to make.

Trade at least one outfielder, probably 2.