Boomer5

This is an organization that has played Kotsay in CF, Braun at 3B, and Yuni at 1B (and well everywhere else for whatever reason), so could they put Flores at 1B? Sure. So yes, technically, he could play 1B if that makes you feel better. At 5'10" OF with a career high of 11 HR's in 2011 in A ball is very few teams idea of a MLB 1B candidate other than desperation. Maybe he has some elite scoop skills? I would have no idea but if he does, let me know. His height wont help errant throws and his stretch wouldn't be as pronounced as a taller 1B. His bat clearly is not MLB 1B caliber. As to the value statement, for what its worth, Steamer has him at 4-19-265 in 184 plate appearances (yes its standard and you can read the rest for yourself http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=11165&position=OF) If that has value, then we have a very different definition of the word value.

You aren't going to get a prospect with Bruce. Reds can trade him and his contract for some boring prospects if they want. They actually almost did it if not for some prospects medicals. Im going off this and in part that the prospects were low level. Also from Olney in his column from yesterday, the Reds are having some concerns that they won’t be able to trade Bruce at all. The club has been shopping the outfielder for months, coming close on the Toronto trade and in a deadline deal that would’ve sent Bruce to the Mets, so there’s at least some interest in Bruce’s services. Still, it has to be something of a tough sell given Bruce’s struggles over the last two seasons and the minimum $13.5MM ($12.5MM salary, $1MM buyout of his 2017 option) owed to him for 2016. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/02/reds-notes-bruce-trades-rebuilding.html

I thought your argument was that he was too short to play 1B, which was proven to be incorrect. So your argument actually is that players who are short should not play first base unless they can hit 50 HRs (once)? Someone else already mentioned this, but Flores' career ISO in AAA is 167, which is better than what Prince managed last year (158). No one is saying that Flores has any sort of chance to be as productive as Fielder in his prime, but to write Flores off because he's 5'10 is strange. The point is pretty obvious; you will only put up with a short 1B if and only if he is one of if not the best slugger in the game. While we put Prince at 1B, he was no ones idea of a 1B except that he technically was stationed there. Putting Flores at 1B because there was once a short 1B - and therefore all short 1B are the same - is the same thing as saying we should put Braun at 3B because you, know, he was once a 3B so that disproves he shouldn't play there again. I would assume most would get that Flores is not the next Prince.

I was thinking about a Jay Bruce trade. We pick him up and his contract along with a B/B+ prospect in exchange for say Hill or a non-prospect. We then trade Braun to the O's...........

Thanks!

The Brewers just had a 5'9" guy play there for 7 years. When Flores hits 50 HRs and is one of the most feared sluggers in the game, get back to me and Ill reevaluate my thoughts.

Hill has hit 16 Hrs in his last 894 ABs playing in a hitter friendly park and is a below average defender at his natural 2B and surely 3B. He is adequate for this Milwaukee team but thats about it.

I dont see a 5' 10" guy playing first base at the MLB level?

I think not dealing Smith yet is more to do with what other teams see in their bullpen arms. They are very fickle and if one teams closer/8th guy doesnt look right in spring, Smith will become an even hotter commodity.

I see Kodi as an "interesting" reliever at the MLB level and Turner is likely going to be a solid starter at SS or 2B for a long time, so of course you'd trade Kodi for Turner. Im as tough as anyone on our drafts over the years but as was pointed out, Kodi was picked higher than he should have been to maximize the pool money so they could sign their above slot 2nd round picks.

I have always wondered about the former employee dynamic when it comes to making trades especially a big one like this. The might have called to see if they could get a friendly discount.

This is a great point.

[sarcasm]Awesome. When do WS Tix go on sale? I want to make sure I have mine![/sarcasm] All kidding aside, few fanbases would even care about a Flores and we are one of them that shouldnt either. Braun is locked in at LF, Santana in RF. CF is up for grabs but I wouldnt imagine Flores profiles as an everyday CF under even the most optimistic of fans. Therefore he is at best a 4th OF who is also hurt. You seem fond of making very strong declarations about young players' value -- the pitchers in the Lind trade, now Flores -- without offering much to back up your arguments. I'm not saying your bottom line judgments are wrong, but you aren't offering much reason to think they're right, and the range of possible outcomes for young players with some indications of talent tends to be pretty broad. Whether a guy like Flores gets a real shot probably depends on whether either Braun or Santana misses some time with injuries, which seems fairly likely to happen. The FO is collecting young players with upside (which is what makes them worth trying) and limits or tarnish (which is what makes them available). Some of those guys, like Flores, are at the point where they'll have to put up or shut up at the MLB level this year or next. For me, that's fun. We weren't going to the World Series with Gomez, Davis, Fiers, etc., and we sure aren't going this year without them. I'm looking forward to seeing how these young guys pan out. He is a C level prospect who will be on a major league roster but he wont be a difference maker. Im curious of the word upside that is being used. What upside? Walks? Yes his OBA should be good. But he has little pop, little speed and can really only be a corner OF. He isn't going to be a 1B as he is 5'10". He is just a guy and honestly almost the last word I would use with Flores is upside. http://www.minorleagueball.com/2015/5/29/8690223/yankees-promote-prospect-ramon-flores-to-major-leagues As for the 3 Seattle guys, I have read the same reports you have. That is all we have to go on, so I guess Id wonder where the optimism comes from? Even if they were elite talents, which they are not, the likelyhood of ANY rookie league pitcher making it to the majors is very very low. Throw in that their only skill is the strike zone, and none posses any plus plus pitches and Im not sure where any optimism would come from unless its just the new car smell where any trade pick up is valued more highly that they normally would. My issue with them isnt that I dont want 3 more pitchers in our system, its that one year of Lind is worth more than 3 guys who dont project as big leaguers by any reasonable analysis. Had we picked up 3 Trey Supaks Id be in your upside camp. Supak is a guy with no success so far but does posses plus skills, and does project to be a back end MLB starter.

I do think the Davis trade was pretty bad, especially since it seems 50/50 Nottingham stays at C and Davis' power is legitimate and rare. Is it confirmed the DH is coming to the NL?

Agreed. I hope the model of taking on bad contracts in exchange for prospects continues. Sadly, there is only one Dave Stewart. The Lind trade was the football equivalent of trading a 3rd round pick for 3 7th round picks. Too cute even IF one of them develops IMHO. Im willing to give him a mulligan though because the Diamondback trade was a good one and we should have some insanely good drafts coming up.

[sarcasm]Awesome. When do WS Tix go on sale? I want to make sure I have mine![/sarcasm] All kidding aside, few fanbases would even care about a Flores and we are one of them that shouldnt either. Braun is locked in at LF, Santana in RF. CF is up for grabs but I wouldnt imagine Flores profiles as an everyday CF under even the most optimistic of fans. Therefore he is at best a 4th OF who is also hurt.

You lose me on this one. How can a guy who is 23 years old and has had some success in the minors not have any value? Silly. I realize the bar has gotten really low lately but come on now. If Flores is the answer I cant even imagine what the question would be. His profile screams at best 4th OF assuming he is even healthy. We have better players on the team and it isnt much of a team. As someone already pointed out, he is pretty much Michael Reed and we already have one of those.

If you take away the names and just look at performance, Hill is the obvious choice to start. Maybe when Cecchini shows something at CS, maybe he comes up later. Middlebrooks is just a name at this point. I doubt they are expecting much from him. How he has fallen from a few years back. Hill-Villars-Scooter-Carter. That infield says it all.

I always liked Nolin, admittedly only off his 2012/13 years. I wonder why he wasn't just included in the trade?

The Luc trade and this years draft will let us know what direction the new FO is going for sure. I was assuming we were going the Cubs route because of the moves so far where we went primarily for young hitting with a high ceiling and mature controllable pitching in Anderson and the lottery ticket guys in 3 Mariners and Supak/Bubba. Nottingham and Cano have ceilings that look potentially excellent while the pitching we acquired doesn't project to anything. Even the most optimistic fan cant see anything close to a #2, Id assume.

This has been covered so many times but what exactly makes people think that the top pitching prospects in the upper minors are readily available for a trade in today's market? What was true in the mid 2000s when organizations were chasing OPS isn't necessarily true anymore. While the market could swing back in the direction of devaluing prospects, I don't think that's on the immediate horizon, and the Brewers simply haven't played the "all hitting and no pitching" game very well. With all the hitting talent the Brewers successfully developed they still never had enough pitching to make a consistent run year in and year out. Of course with a different FO we might actually adopt a sustainable long term model but the simple truth is that regardless the Brewers have to develop their own impact pitching because they aren't able to afford it in FA. Not that FA is a good route to build a pitching staff as organizations will almost always end up paying for nothing by the end of those contracts. The Brewer's best bet to acquire impact MiLB pitching is by trading impact MLB players at the correct time, as in when they have more than rental player value at the trade deadline of their last season. If the Brewers are trading in season then they can't really sit around and wait for the market to be set because in recent history the top prospect pitching moving in deadline deals typically happens on the front side and there's not much out there at the back end. Based on the arbitrary criteria Melvin's FO limited themselves to the Brewers haven't acquired any potential impact minor league pitching above A ball, at least in my opinion. The pitchers either have/had stuff but no arm/control or control without the arm/stuff. I think an argument could be made that some guys have/had #2 upside as an absolute best case, but there just hasn't been a guy who comfortably projected as a #2. I like the depth of pitching in the minors right now, we have a ton of mid and back of the rotation types, but we don't have any MLB quality #2s at their peak, there's no Gallardo out there right now. Certainly some of our existing pitchers could continue to improve and progress in that direction and while I could care less about having an "Ace", to be truly competitive year in and year out, especially in the playoffs, we need at least 2 pitchers of #2 quality though I'd prefer 3. I'd like a rotation of #2, #2, #2, #3, and #3, that's been my goal since I started thinking about this stuff in 2007-8. That would allow the Brewers to shift the fringe guys with arms and stuff but lacking control to the bullpen to be top notch relievers. Developing pitching is a numbers game, it always has been, and likely will be in the future... the Brewers have never had numbers and that's why there just haven't been enough pitchers to fill out a rotation much less a bullpen. I am not suggesting it will be easy, which is why I have advocated the Brewers maximizing their draft and pool position for the next 2+ years to give themselves better chances at the better arms in the draft/trades. The composition of the MLB roster pretty much guarantees we will be picking high for several years. As for trades, if they were one arm away, an Arcia could net us just about any of them. Obviously that isn't a deal they would make now, but 3 years from now assuming they have a top 1-3 draft each year, they can trade for any elite arm(s).

Flores is nothing of value. No need to accomodate him. At best he is just a guy. I have no idea why any team would ever trade for him let alone try and find a place in the starting lineup. We agree to disagree. In 2015 between AAA and the majors, Flores walked more than he struck out, as a 23 year old. He hit .426 with a 1.194 over his last month at AAA. He also posted a .902 OPS against LHP in AAA in 2015. Since two teams traded for him within a few months, I suspect that GM's see him as more than "just a guy". Of all the OF that Stearns acquired, Flores is the one that's not "just a guy". He also can play 1B, and if Carter stumbles, who knows? Not many 5'10" 1B, though Steve Garvey had a pretty nice career and he's a lefthanded thrower. Remember, if two teams traded for him, that means two teams got rid of him too. Plus he is hurt now. Im not too concerned about the MLB roster, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. This is a horrendous team that will only get worse when the Luc and Smith trades happen so ultimately the Flores/Santana RF battle doesn't matter. I do think if we are hoping for guy to reach his potential, Id rather it was Santana because he has a much higher ceiling and power is a very tradable tool.

All of those 3 will be traded shortly, with maybe Braun being a bit of a challenge but not impossible. Peralta is interesting because who are we trading? Wily of last year or 2014? Im not sure teams can agree on a value for him until he proves himself. Luc is of course gone, Im sure its just a fine tuning of offers, but it would make way too much sense to trade him before getting too deep into spring. Smith should be traded soon too. Why keep him? If he gets the closer job, he will command closer level play and what good is that? With relief arms going at a super premium how in the world can we pass up a trade in that general amount? Braun is about proving he is healthy and finding a contract fit. Its going to be a complicated trade. They stocked up on OF'ers for a reason, and I see no reason why you'd want a team of cast offs and one guy who is plus value. That makes no sense.

I am assuming they are taking the Cubs route. They figured out its too hard to project pitching in the draft and low minors. Hitting projects better. Pile up on hitting in the next few drafts then trade for the big time pitching in the more advanced minors.

Braun will be traded once he proves he is healthy and they can work out some sort math issue with us taking back a contract in exchange for better prospects. Coming off back surgery, it would be wise for any team to take nor the Brewers selling low. His contract is very high but with JHey at $190M it isn't THAT bad.