tmwiese55

Yes I remember going to several late season games and how hard they were playing at the end as Segura was a sparkplug and Gomez had first come to be the Gomez we know now. It was one of the reasons I liked RR, that team could have went through the motions but he had them playing hard all year. I don't know what happened at the end of last year and beginning of this that the team just seemed to have no life, body language was brutal. Would be interesting to hear the behind the scenes story.

Being generally in playoff contention from 07-14. That's all I meant. Of course it's frustrating they only made it twice. I was actually just talking yesterday about 2012 being a frustration and something to remember regarding RR. The 2011 team essentially only lost Fielder and replaced him with Ramirez (who played great and led the league in doubles). I think that was the year they got Aoki and Hart ended up moving to 1B. Still had Greinke and Gallardo, yet they started bad and really didn't have a shot at the playoffs in spite of a late surge.

Regarding the discussion of the other teams that are currently better than us with better systems. Who's to say they're going to be able to maintain it for more than 7 seasons like MKE did? What I'm getting at is all those teams could have been having the same argument in say 08 and their fans could have been using us the example of 'good'. We had a bunch of young guys all coming up and ready to play well. The hurdle is making it long term like STL does. Heck, KC did the trade for Shields just like we did for Greinke, giving up more than we did for not as good of a pitcher(I assume they get SD #1 pick this year though). I feel like the way TB has traded their pitchers over the years should have them set up to keep it going longer term but we'll see, those younger players have to perform now, and they we terrible last year.

Yea I don't think Fielder was even a possibility with his body type and no DH. Couldn't play adequate D when he was young, how's he going to do at 35. It's funny what two months changes, before the season no one would have been saying we should have kept him as the first 3 years of that deal weren't really good and he's only getting older, two month hot streak and all is forgotten I guess. I think it was reported they gave a 6/120 offer to him which I thought was about right, if he wouldn't take that or something very close they had to let him go.

It had something about Braun + Gomez that's why I took it as both of them in a package. Either way, I guess we all agree that both would fetch quite the haul. I saw few post of people already getting upset with the prospect of not trading Gomez. I urge some patience. I agree they should move him but it's not like management is clueless if they wait to do it until the offseason, you'll have more time to shop for the better deal and hopefully Gomez starts playing better and shows he's healthy and can be trusted to be a good hitter (that the last two years weren't flukes). If they go into next season with him and don't trade until the deadline then yea, complain away.

Monty, at least you're going all in on trading the fielders/harts/weeks in the way you preferred and then it's sound logically. I totally get it. Much better than the others (most here) who would have just not done the trades in of Greinke, Marcum, etc. I see how this attitude could flip things in your way. My whole view on it was to just look at the players we gave in the trades and think, really it's not that much and wouldn't make a big difference right now. But if you add in 10 other players we could have gotten for those our own stars it would have really created a glut of talent similar to the Cubs now. I get it but I'd still lean the other way since we hadn't been good in forever but more importantly that when do you ever get good? When those prospects come up you would be trading them right away again and just become a farm system. Wow, what a post xis.

I understand your point Monty and I by no means think it's unreasonable. I just feel like it wasn't necessarily for one season as we had a shot all years from 08 until the Braun suspension, which helps shift me into my side of the argument. The other reason is when do you 'become good' as you say we would. If we trade all those guys we wouldn't have ever been good yet and if the prospects we get pan out (see the missed prospects thread) this stance would just see us trade them all away again. My take is the state of the farm is on Melvin and should be held responsible but I really don't think the trades were the killers at all, it was the horrific drafting/development.

So some have the stance that after all the painful years, we successfully built a team that in 2011 had a shot to go for it before losing Fielder should have traded him and other players and not went for the title? I'm sorry, I just will never get behind that. I mean, why have a team then, you do most things right and you get right to the point and then pull the plug. I just think people should realize we're small market and we're going to have to pick our windows when to go for it. I view all those trades as worth it and don't think it would've changed anything about how we look now. Yes, trading Fielder, hart, weeks, braun would have made the system stronger and we could be better for the next couple years, but then we have to trade everyone again, what's the point. Brantley was traded in 08 and finally became good in what 2014, 6 years later, he wasn't regarded as a good prospect anywhere and don't think that one should be held against melvin, especially when he was 100% right to trade super prospect Laporta in the same trade. I also think a major lesson from the way that team was built is that we need to target team building from homegrown pitchers first, rather than offense first like that was done. Hopefully they focus this way going forward. Great point by whoever said MA bought at the right time and hasn't helped anything other than maximizing revenue. All the prospects that made them good for those years were already in place, he just had to ride it out.

All I meant was to go back old things that have happened and argue about them over and over, and now everyone has the benefit of hindsight and knowing what happened. Just meant that most discussions that start about one topic ends up arguing about some old trade, signing, etc..

haha, that's the way most of these things go. Rehash the same old hindsight arguments. To monty's post, yes I totally get what you mean. Pointless to put that manager in place if you're going to keep the same players and draft/develop the same way. I think I mentioned earlier but I think this is an early step in turning that way around and they realize they need to go that direction going forward. Probably going to see massive roster overhaul coming in the next 6 months and hopefully they go more of the Cardinals route. Or I could be totally wrong and they'll do next to nothing and sign some old 3B like Uribe and think they can win again next year. I don't think so though.

Exactly, how can he not lie in that situation after winning the appeal. The only other route would be to just not say anything, and with the media firestorm that wasn't really an option. Yes he probably should have been a little less boisterous in his lie, but he understandably was trying fix his image, not thinking MLB would go way out of their way to bust people who never failed a test in the biogen scandal (using basically illegal tactics themselves). Hindsight, I bet he just wishes he said "thanks for the support everyone, the appeals process has worked its course and I'm glad to be playing". If he'd done that everyone would have hammered him at the time for not giving an explanation though. Again, every person busted has lied in their denial initially until they couldn't anymore. I just hope he keeps hitting and this story will get further in the distance so we don't have to hear this over and over about some minor PEDs. Anybody seen Matt Kemp stats since 2011? I think it's pretty obvious he was doing the same thing and that's why he never came out against braun for winning his MVP.

I think Patrick pretty much nailed my view as well.

For two all star OFs? You'd think you could get 1 top pitching prospect like him? I'm generally in the camp that prospects are overvalued (which isn't totally accurate with Syndegaard since he's ready to go now) and if you can't get 1 top prospect in return for two all star OFs then something is wrong.

I get it, people like Cruz/Peralta were able to fly under the radar, Braun was put on the spot because he was a much bigger star and now looks a fool. I was at a STL at MKE game last year too, surrounded by Cards fans. At the beginning of the game I told my friend that I guarantee someone around will go on a rant about Braun, yet they have Peralta and had Larussa and Mcguire. First AB a middle aged woman started whining about how much she hates him because he's a cheater and a liar. We just started laughing.

Yea I never thought RR was terrible or anything, we can nitpick any manager if we want. I really was in his corner as I thought those two late season pushes showed he had the team playing hard no matter. But it just seemed like that 100 games or so the team had completely quit on him, the way it was going they might have lost 115 games and the player body language was brutal. Yes they've now lost several in a row but were doing ok before that and doesn't it seem like they're playing better, not getting blow out as much and the team at least seems engaged. Of course whoever comes in wasn't going to turn this into a winner and who knows what Counsell will be. I just feel like they know they were toast with him and might as well get the next guy to hopefully start changing the culture towards a smarter way of playing is what they're going for. I'm not sure who would have a bad attitude on the team that you speak of. These same guys played their tails of in two other losing seasons after starting slow when they could have given up. Gomez plays his heart out at all times, Ramirez has always been considered a good guy, Lucroy is a pro, you even still see Braun putting his head down trying to beat out infield singles and DP balls when games are out of hand. Everyone always said he was a good team guy before the PED stuff and it would be surprising if he was being a locker room cancer now after that controversy, you'd think he just wants to fit in and not be a story anymore. Segura has always played hard. Davis seems like he cares, he's just not a good OBP guy. Lohse and Garza have been considered good guys wherever they've been. Nelson, Fiers, Peralta all seem to care, especially since they're motivated to prove themselves in order to get paid. I just don't know if it's attitude, I'd say it's more that several of these guys are just getting old and frankly the pitching has just been atrocious.

Have to remember the courier did massively mess up his job and it wouldn't surprise me at all if his mishaps led to the freakishly high tests that day, I don't want to go into all the details that came out back then but for those who read everything it wouldn't be surprising. Everyone who's been caught has lied, he just did it on a bigger stage because he's an MVP level player. People that boo or write stuff on comments sections are just haters, almost no one under 35 truly cares, it's just something to heckle about, and any road team fan that boos should be booing one of the several users on his own team too.

Thoughts on batting the P 8th lately? I had the Cubs game on last night as ESPN guys babbled about how genius Madden is for doing it. IMO, there is no logical and/or statistical reason to ever do it. Anything gained by 'having another leadoff' is easily negated by the P coming up earlier in more chances with runners on. Moreover, if you want the extra leadoff just put the guy leadoff and be done with it, move everyone else down one spot. It's that simple. If I recall it actually hurt on Monday afternoon. I think the P came up with bases loaded (maybe 2nd and 3rd) with 1 out. Ramirez was on 3rd so couldn't squeeze. P gets out and then Sardinas or whoever was 9th ends it.

Good post. If the guy you have in place isn't providing that clear direction you desire you can't just leave him in the job forever for the sake of stability though either. I think they're hoping Counsell is their guy for the really long term (Bochy, Scosia, Matheny, etc.) type and that's why they went with him so young. I think they view him as being able to instill that Cardinals style smart approach to the game, it will now just take some time to turn over the players to be that style. Maybe it would be better to pull someone from the Cards but you know what I mean. We'll see I guess, but I think that's what they're hoping for in Counsell. Also, I think they expect a couple lean years coming up so it's good time to let him learn on the job. Maybe they'll sign Gomez and Lucroy and bring in another old 3B next year though and my guess on what they're trying to do will end up being way off.

Wow, so anyone who won a single division title earns the right to be manager for life in your book? I guess I remembered KC incorrectly the last few seasons, I did not look them up like you did. If I recall he was nearly fired in May last year though, so that hot finish does make sense. Quick look back at the KC years and yea I think the hype in 2011 and 12 was too much and he can't really be judged on those years not producing winners since everyone was so young. The complaint was on how so few of those supposed star hitters were developing, then last year's post season run happened. Did well in 13 and then had the run in 14, pretty much on the right track just without those guys being the stars they were supposed to be. Your remembrance of Ned's last two years is incorrect though. Oversaw a massive collapse in 2007 and was in the process of doing the same in 08 before being let go with 12 games left. That is two straight collapses. As I said, if they didn't make that playoff no doubt he would have been fired after those two collapses and every team would have done the same. So the Brewers said, might as well do it now and see if it helps for the end of the season. You apparently have the longest leash of anyone though. And to the 'learned lessons' point, would he have any incentive to do anything different if he wasn't fired and was told that he'll have a job forever no matter how many times he fails? It could lead to a Kirk Ferentz type situation of perpetual mediocrity in Iowa football. Ned Yost has only made the playoffs once in his career and never won a division. Give him a job for life I guess. Was just grabbing a random old name Garner, by your logic we'd still have trebelhorn or someone from the 80s until they die. Don't get me wrong, I by no means want a marlins type thing going and prefer the stability. I just don't disagree with either of these firings, especially Yost, and don't think 3 managers over 12 years (4 over 15 if Counsell makes at least the 3 he's signed for) is a revolving door situation that you or others (or even I) should think is all that weird. Considering they've only made the playoffs twice you could actually say they're even more conservative than most teams.

read that Marquette article, surprising they have that many retired numbers. Could even make a case that Diener should be in there, retired #3 in scoring only 80 behind #1, 2nd in assists, 2nd in 3s. Played all four years, final fours, All american Honorable mention. I'm in the camp that it should be rare and probably only for four year players. Wonder if Kaminski will get the honor at UW. Montee Ball could make an argument in football too. Career and single season TD records, 3 conf championships, played all four years.

Nelson Cruz has made it the last two years, David Ortiz has made several and is all over the TV at them when he does. No reason Braun shouldn't be in. Especially with there being no real options on the team right now. Just have him be a reserve, one AB and get him out to avoid much attention.

hat were they supposed to do with Yost? Keep him like KC did. It seems to be working out there doesn't it? What were they supposed to do now? Keep RRR and fire the players who obviously are not playing well enough. If you fail to address the real problem then you cannot expect the real problems to get fixed. This isn't like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound. It's like sewing your fingers together to close a cut on your foot. It not only doesn't help it actually hurts. I think giving Craiger a 3 yr deal actually shows they get exactly what you're saying though and don't want a revolving door every season (like say the Marlins). By this time next season Counsell will have less time left on his contract than RRR did when he got fired. That is hardly an indication Mark learned anything about the revolving managerial door. So at the time if Yost had been retained and overseen that collapse you would have kept him in the offseason after two straight second half collapses, really? When does someone get fired then? Why isn't Phil Garner still manager, he got Houston to the playoffs, must have been good. Also, you don't think Ned learned from his experience with that and is now an improved manager and leader because of it? And really didn't his teams before last seasaon in KC disappoint every year and had at least one late season collapse. Plus I think they collapsed late last season but squeaked in on the WC, but got hot in the playoffs. One playoff run in 12ish years as manager and it makes up for underachieving every year. I'd expect them to blow it this year too. The guy was basically crying in the post game pressers in 2008. Keep RR and cut/trade all the players huh, why not both, I think his firing was the first step in that. This isn't Tony Larussa, what has he done in his career to have that kind of cache or clout. He made one playoff when he probably should have made 3, at least two. When he made that playoff he completely botched the rotation, CF, and 3B and blew a 1-0 lead in the NLCS, and also almost lost in the NLDS to a vastly inferior DBacks team. I'd generally been a RR defender based on those two seasons where they started slow and were hit by injuries but the teams finished the season hot and were playing hard throughout which led me to believe he was a good motivator and the players respected him. Then the collapse and start this year happened and it seemed the whole team had checked out on him. They showed no fire at all, something had to be going on behind the scenes. 3 year deal instead of an interim manager is the point there. Having an interim and the cloud hanging over the season and offseason of who the manager will be was avoided by giving that deal. I think that shows they don't want a revolving door happening.

Abreu was a bid though I think, so not like it was a negotiation and they walked away from it. If they'd have known the dollar amount I bet they would have done it. Back to the overall theme of the thread. I wouldn't read much into anything for the next month. We'll know in July how serious they are about trades and subsequently the future. If they don't trade Gomez, Lucroy, and Braun (and I doubt they will) I predict a lot of complaining on here about how they need to tear down immediately etc and that management is clueless. I think that would be overreaction as none of these guys are FAs this year. Best value back from Gomez could easily be in the offseason, Lucroy the year after. Offseason gives more time to work for the best deal without the panic of the deadline. I'm just saying to not overreact unless you see extensions come for those guys or something. Also, both aren't exactly playing great right now so giving them the second half of the year to prove they're healthy and hitting might give them a better return. Also with Lucroy, if you wait another year it gives you more time to identify needs in your system (besides pitching) and to evaluate other teams players (basically it gets everyone a year further along to make a smarter trade).

What were they supposed to do with Yost? We had a couple late season collapses with him already and were going through another. Do you remember his post game pressers the 10-20 days before being fired, he looked like he was ready to cry. Firing 12 games left is rough but if we don't do it and don't make the playoffs he's getting the ax anyway, and rightfully so. What were they supposed to do now? Team had won like 20 out of 100 games. I think giving Craiger a 3 yr deal actually shows they get exactly what you're saying though and don't want a revolving door every season (like say the Marlins).

Somewhere, isn't Melvin responsible for hiring Seid and overseeing him, therefore it's fair for him to be held accountable for that? I get your point kind of agree it wouldn't be terrible to keep Melvin around for the trades and that since they have shifted their draft/minor league approach that is enough of a change. But it's totally fair to hold Melvin accountable for all the botched drafts