82brewcrew82

That's not evidence. No dogma in the world would ever be challenged under this logic. That would be an awful world to live in. I'm sure there are literally hundreds of examples just in my lifetime of where a player should have been traded in the season after they signed a big free agent contract, but wasn't because teams were either too stubborn to admit or a mistake or too slow to recognize changing circumstances. Now that is data you can actually use to guide you. You wanna take a guess as to why wheels are still round? Sometimes something is the way it is because that's the way it works best. There are reasons teams don't do what the Marlins did. It's not like your suggesting some novel line of thought that hasn't been tried. No, poorly run organizations do what you are suggesting. Go ahead and sign a bunch of players to LTCs and then turn around and trade them based on team performance, see how many free agents are willing to sign with you in the future. There are reasons on one wants to play in Miami. This notion that every GM in the history of the game has either been too stubborn or too stupid to see it your way is very convincing and all but your opinion isn't data upon which to make a good decision.

No it's not. It would just show that things change and they're willing and able to adapt instead of being stubborn. OK, yeah it makes total sense to sign a guy long term and tout him as a major part of the teams future only to trade him a year later because he had a down year. Why in the heck would you sign the guy to a five year deal in the fist place if you were going to cut bait at the frist sign of trouble. It's really silly to think of it that way.

Any attempt to trade Cain after one year of this contract is an admission that whatever they were trying to do this off season was a complete failure. The whole mantra was that it isn't about winning in 2018 at that Yelich/Cain were moves for the future.

Giving Cain a little extra rest here and there may not be the worst idea in the world.

Good thing. We really need him to prove me wrong.

But then he also said Braun would play some RF towards the end of ST. But he never did jump out to RF. He played 8 games at first and 4 at LF. Are we still pretending that Braun isn't the player that is getting pinched?

C'mon now. I never attributed anything to you that you didn't say. I asked you a question based on a statement you made, nothing more. Which you already know because you answered the question in your second paragraph. What is the difference between the Ramirez signing and the Cain signing. Both were aging players at a position of need in attempt to keep a marginally talented team competitive. Neither were likely to hold the value of their contract through the entirety of said contact. ALL players are judged on what they are getting paid at the time they are performing. What's silly is paying players for past performance which is essentially what the contract is doing knowing full well that the back end is probably going to be a loser. I don't think they are walking any line except the one that walks directly into mediocrity. They did mortgage a large part of the future. They just didn't go far enough to make it worth it. They did impulsively sign a big ticket free agent because they thought they could get pitching for Santana. They just weren't impulsive enough to finish it off. No, they aren't threading a needle, they are hitting it with a sledge hammer.

If the player index page at all correct I count 73 players listed as DSL players. I know a few are probably stateside but good grief that is a lot of players that need playing time.

They need a serviceable reliever, especially one who can get LHB's out. They don't need a fat RHB 1B who can't do anything at replacement level except maybe slugging. I doubt anybody does. If Braun wasn't playing 1B and they had more relievers, I'd be keeping Aguilar and cutting Drake. But the real point is that there's no dilemma when it comes to moving on from either one of them once you have a legit long-term MLB player in that role. I don't think it's an either/or decision. Logical roster construction doesn't seem to be a priority for this group so I don't accept the premise that they "need" a guy like Drake. Particularly at the expense of a younger player like Williams. I was under the impression that marginal talent isn't going to block young players and said young players were going to be given a chance, no? Fact is we have the perfect guy to fill that role. He just happens to be starting. I'd take Aguilar over Drake on this team pretty much every chance I get.

So are you saying unequivocally that you think Cain will be worth what he is being paid five years from now?

2018 Brewers Season Predictions Win-Loss Record: 77 - 85 (early starting pitching woes buries the team as Davies starts slow again, Anderson regresses, Chacin remembers he's not in San Diego and the back end just isn't up to snuff) Playoffs (Yes, No): No Highest Playoff Level Achieved: None All Star Game Representative(s): Yelich Offensive Player of the Year: Yelich Pitcher of the Year: Knebel Most Surprising Player: T. Williams Most Disappointing Player: Suter

So I assume that the co-op team they had last year will be a Brewer team this year. Either that or are we going to see a a lot of guys coming state side and/or a lot of guys getting released? Maybe a third team? Just trying to figure out where all these guys are going to play.

Thank God Johnson convinced Stearns to turn nothing into Travis Shaw and sign Eric Thomas... masterful work by the pitching coach there... And trading for Domingo Santana, just brilliant moves by Johnson... Gotta agree here. I'm not sure what point is trying to be made by the OP but that makes absolutely no sense to me.

His 311 plate appearances last year were respectable, but aren't nearly enough evidence to conclude that he has fixed what made him waiver wire fodder after being a nothing prospect in the minors for nearly 10 years. His 83 plate appearances as a PH are but farts in the wind. Needing statistical significance and large data sets is not exactly controversial in baseball at this point. It would be criminal to base a roster decision on his success as a PH last year. Yet you're all kinds of sold on Oliver Drake and his one full season and statistically irrelevant 90 innings? Just say you just don't like the guy. It's a far more compelling argument at this point.

Yep. First impressions die harder than they should in the face of more comprehensive data, and some of those May/June implosions were brutal. Nobody is denying that, but all average relievers have lots of brutal outings and it's part of the volatility of the role. There's no need to tar and feather him. He's going to play a role and help the team IMO. And Aguilar is the converse. He's just not good at all, but some of those big pinch-hits were unforgettable, and his series in Colorado, against their primary rival for the 2nd wild card, was monumental. I get it; I wanted to buy an Aguilar jersey too after that series. But that was not really a good indication of his chances of success moving forward, and they need a 13th pitcher much more than they need him. I'd be fine with giving a guy like Chris Carter a minor league deal in case Braun gets hurt, and I'd rather keep Choi than Aguilar by a mile. By the way, Aguilar's OPS last year not counting his 6 pa's at Coors? A measly .797, under somewhat favorable platoon splits no less. Aguilar would far from the first player to carve out a niche as a decent player with less than stellar minor league numbers. So, yes, I tend to give more credence to what a guy did last year in the majors than what he did in the minors. For example, do you trust Drake's minor league walk rate or his not so good major league walk rate? No one is saying that Aguilar is an every day stud all of a sudden but in the role he was given last year, he played well. Drake is a LOOGY and using him consistently against RH pitching is a bad idea but setting him up to succeed makes him a decent option. Sure we can cherry pick out certain stretches to make a point but at the tend of the day it all counts. I'm sure we can pluck out a stretch for Drake that makes him look pretty bad as well. I know we all have our pet players that we like and the players we like to demonize. The fact is that guys like Drake and Aguilar are marginal roster players. The absence or existence of either on the roster probably has very little impact on the team either way. Heck, if Logan is healthy Drake is probably off the roster.

Why? Seriously, why? What did you expect from him? I'm not sad at all, in fact I'm actually sad anyone thought he had anything left to give us. Looking at his past two seasons, it was pretty easy to tell he was signed probably more-so as a favor to him for his previous time he spent with us. I don't think anyone actually expected him to make this team. Because I like him and I think he can contribute in the bullpen. I'm not sure how you look at Yo's recent past and then suggest he has anything to contribute.

Agree to disagree.... edit: no need for anything else. deleted second half of sentence.

An interview from October is not three years ago. In that interview he LITERALLY says "if they approach me about that, I'm open to it". Which means they hadn't approached him about it. We do know they were shopping Santana back then. I mean, my 10 year old can draw that line. Comparing that situation to a gold glove caliber SS moving to second is just ridiculous. It is far easier to find an OF than a first baseman (see our revolving door) and moving Braun to first could have easily happened any number of times over the last few years if that was the plan. Suggesting that it is an ordained move is pure speculation, not fact. I have no question that if Santana were to be traded, Braun would be the everyday RF.

If the guy has something left, sure, why not?

He might even be more likely to have a successful year if he's used correctly. I don't understand why people are ready to riot over a guy with a 3.60 career FIP. Actually, I think I do understand. It's because he had a few very memorable implosions at a bad time. An early-season game against SD comes to mind, for example. He's like the antithesis of Aguilar, who is beloved by some because of a few memorable home runs in key situations, in spite of his otherwise pathetic credentials. Drake is hated because of a few unforgettable mistakes in key situations, in spite of his otherwise respectable credentials. I think the issue with Drake is that he allows A LOT of base runners. That tends to make folks pretty nervous. I really have no issue if he makes the team as the second lefty because the person that would have been in that role is out for six weeks. Having said that, not sure why anyone would have an issue with Aguilar. He was pretty darn good last year. Judging him on his career prior to last year is pretty useless. With Boone hurt and Hader/Suter being more long relief guys than lefty specialists, they definitely have a spot for Drake. I'm confident that the front office is taking an objective approach to Drake's status, and I think there's a decent chance he makes the team, at least for a while.

No worries. I'm told we have plenty of starting pitching.

You said there as talk of Braun moving to first for three years (very wrong) and then, when called out, answer with "why should they talk about it"? Braun saying he would move around for the team is one thing, he never said anything specifically about first so........ The evidence squarely points to the team wanting to trade Santana for pitching and keeping Braun in right. The only person pounding their fists is you and it's not just this thread. There was nothing inevitable about this until it became clear they had a logjam in the OF they were not going to be able to clear. If you think they were trading Santana to open up RF for Phillips I'm not sure what to tell you.

Talk by fans maybe, never the team.

There was no talk of moving Braun to first until after it became apparent they were not going to be able to move Santana.

Phillips has been optioned and they are debating on whether to keep Aguilar. It's not about what I would do.