OnTheBlack

This looks like a decent approximation at this point, but you can bet it'll look almost nothing like this 365 days from now. Knebel SHOULD be set in his role..and if he's not, things probably aren't going well. Hader I'd like to see get a shot at the rotation. If not, I'd like to see him used like he is now, just hopefully more frequently. Barnes has the stuff to be a SU man(or a closer for that matter) so I could see him on the outside looking in as you say, but I could also see him improving and being in line to take over should Knebel stumble. And remember, we were talking about Anderson being a long man out of the pen this year. Just shows the volatility. I'd like to see as a basic framework; CL-Knebel SU-Swarzak 6/7th-Hopefully Barnes earns a job and Taylor Williams Loogy-Wang Long Man/Last Man-Jungman/Jeffress I'm still holding out hope that Wily can get it figured out and come back next year in better shape(though I don't know that-that has ever been a real issue), Guerra can get it figured out and we can get Jungman another shot.

The Brewers have at no point in this rebuilding process ever intentionally lost a game. Trading talent when you don't have a shot at the playoffs does not equate to intentionally losing or tanking games. What it is, it smart baseball. But that team looked like 100 loss team and THEN they suffered from injuries and yet they still played hard, battled and exceeded expectations...despite a losing record. But the emergence of Villar, Braun bouncing back and having a big year, Davies and all the rest of the story lines were huge. As far as the trades, we got rid of Luc, Smith and Jeffress at the absolutely ideal times and in return we got two top 65 pitchers, a guy in Brinson who's a top 15 prospect as well a the headliners. We traded Thornburg and got Shaw who looks like a building block at what was the worst position in the organization at 3rd, a SS who hit ~.300 and who's defense is GG caliber, a reliever who can hit trippled digits and a lower level lottery ticket. This year we expected 100 losses again and are a couple wins from 81(remember when getting to .500 was a big deal) with a couple weeks left and a legitimate shot at a division title or a WC. I was born in 82 so I would imagine that stretch from 77-82 were the best in Brewers history(That 82 team was a Rollie Fingers injury away from a WS). So for me, the 92 season was my favorite, then it was 2006 or 2007 when we were building up and finally it was starting to show up on the field and then obviously the 2011 season where we might have been a Mark Kotsay move away from a WS was the best season. But the last two just in terms of expectations and fun watching the game have been very-very good. And to anyone thinking we were intentionally losing, I can't imagine you were watching the Brewers play.

It did bring us Aranda and the 34 aggressive D instead of the old Bret bend but don't break D of standing 12 yds off wideouts and getting picked apart. Offensively though, yea that was never going to work here That's definitely a game changer for the Badgers. Them sticking with their traditional offense but adding that dominant attacking defense will hopefully help put them over the top.

I went to a HS football game with a guy who has had 3 kids play for the Badgers and who has a relative who works very closely with Alvarez. We talked the entire game about the program and for about a half about Andersen. I was of the impression that Barry was caught off guard when he left but apparently there was a lot of friction between Andersen and the administration and he was real close to being forced to move on. He didn't like the direction the franchise was going, he was recruiting a lot of guys who had literally no chance to get into Wisconsin(got a few examples) and he did not like the way he wanted to come in and change Wisconsin's style of football. I could go into more detail, but it sounds like he was real close to actually being fired and him leaving was a godsend for them as they didn't have to pay him to coach elsewhere. At the time they said it would take 3 years for them to get things "back on track." The guy kept saying, "I'll stop rambling," but it was one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had. Hearing about behind the scenes stuff that was going on then, about the Ron Dayne days and making sure he got to class, to his recruiting pitches to out of state guys. But yeah, moral of the story with Andersen, he was frustrated they weren't letting guys in he thought they should make exceptions for, Alvarez was not happy with the direction he was taking the offense, he wasn't happy with way he recruited certain players and thought the program was heading in the wrong direction.

I wish there were more coaches with that attitude. The two head coaches I've coached under take it like a personal offense if a kid misses practice to go to a Brewer game. A lot of it depends on what level of baseball you're coaching/playing. When I was younger(much younger) I played on a traveling team that played about 70 games a year and played in about 8 tournaments around the Mid-West. If you missed a practice or game, you missed an equal amount of practices or games as long as you gave advanced notice. I was also a wrestler, so I usually had to miss a couple weeks for individual Nationals and team Nationals. This was explained before the season started so it was pretty black and white. In HS, if you had to miss a single practice, as long as you gave enough of a warning you were fine. You probably weren't starting, but you would sit a couple innings and then come in. When I coached kids, I just asked for the parents to let me know before the season when they were going to miss time for family vacations. If they told me at the last minute, then they were sitting. It's a commitment. I can say when I coached HS, I definitely wouldn't have been cool with someone missing practice or games to go to a Brewers game. Again, you made a commitment to your team. So I guess it's the level of commitment. If you're paying 1500 dollars to be on a travel team and playing all over, you want to make sure the kids are there. I know it's just a game, but it's a game that 18-20 other kids are counting on you to be there for and you want to show up and perform well. If you're playing Fresh or JV, missing a game isn't that big of a deal. If you're on varsity, it should be your priority over watching your favorite player. And if it is, then I guess you just deal with the consequences. But everyone has their own opinions and sometimes seeing a future HOF'er to go to a game with your dad is worth sitting another(or practice). I definitely wouldn't set up a personal practice with a kid. Good on you for doing so, but it's already a big commitment and a lot of money spent on hotel rooms and driving around. I feel like that would be making me as a coach pay for the kid wanting to miss a game/practice.

Is that what they're continuing to do? Seems to me they just got done with a decade of competing, including twice trading for Cy Young winners in their prime and haven't(at times even to their detriment) used or acting like a team that was rebuilding at all. Not to mention, during THIS current rebuild, they're actually outplaying the "contending" Cards. I'm not really seeing this franchise as "horrific" at this point. In fact, I'm not sure what the Brewers could have done the past two years that they could have done better.

Agreed. You'd have to think that Perez and Cameron would be equal to a Phillips/Burnes duo. And the the third prospect is a Clint Coulter type. Then again, just to play devils advocate, if the Brewers are a contender against next year and they could have gotten the deal done without giving up Burnes, a rotation of Nelson/Verlander/Anderson/Davies/Woodruff with Burnes and Peralta waiting in the wings and even Hader potentially in the mix, plus a BP that includes Knebel, hopefully Barnes making a Knebel like jump(his stuff is similar), Taylor Williams, and then again possibly Hader..that looks like a contending pitching staff. But I never really wanted to give up any prospects this year. I never really thought we could matchup in the playoffs with any of the other teams and unless Nelson's injury is much less significant than feared and he's 100 pct healthy by the start of next year, I would be hesitant to trade any long term assets this off-season or next year. I hope we wait, let guys like Brinson, Woodruff, Burnes and everyone else get a while under them to see what we have, and at that point, our roster should be so cheap that we could at that point go out and add a guy like Verlander. Or heck, even sign a guy like Kuechel who'll be a Free Agent. That would be about the only situation in which we could really compete financially with the big boys, if the majority of our lineup is either pre-arby or just early in their arbitration years.

That was my first thought to that as well. What's the pct of pitchers who make the big leagues anyway? How many make it to A+ even if they're healthy. When you're talking about young high upside guys like Kirby..especially guys like Kirby who are advanced pitchers who were projected to be 1st round picks...you expect them to have a Tommy John at some point. Normally I'm not that upset if a young guy has TJ surgery(a lot more worried about a shoulder surgery, hence my concern over Jimmy Nelson). But again...just TJ surgery, fine. That second surgery after? Then it starts to become a long shot. The thing that sucks is it sounds like Kirby was starting to throw the ball really well before his setback, ramping that fastball up to 96-97. I guess we probably won't know until next year. If he's throwing and in camp next year, there's still a sliver of hope. If he's still trying to get healthy..well, at least guys like Ponce, Burnes, Peralta and others have made big jumps this year. Plus you have Taylor Williams who looks like he could be a viable closer/SU man as soon as next year with his stuff.

Hmm..I have to agree to disagree with you on this. House was in good position, but Brice had his hands on Graham the whole time and Graham didn't make contact until he was trying to get free and the ball was coming down. I initially thought it was not catch able, but after rewinding a few times, that was just a really bad call. https://twitter.com/LosRealAli/status/907008777030737920/video/1 That's the only link I can find. I think it shows two things. The PI on Brice was pretty obvious and not needed as House and he were in perfect position with him hemmed in along the back of the endzone, but also...Mike Daniels just wrecks offenses.

Yes..they should. Qualifying for the playoffs in baseball is no small feat. And I don't know how you make a distinction between when to fly a WC flag. If one year they go one and done and the next they lose in 7 in the NLCS do you only hang one for the second year? It's a small thing and probably mostly inconsequential long term, but you don't get a lot of chances to hang banners or make the playoffs. Certainly not when you were expected to be closer to 90 losses than 90 wins.

By that logic I'm guessing you weren't worried about them playing the Brewers heading into their series a few weeks ago. The Dodgers haven't had anything to play since the all star break. Their losing streak has nothing to do with them not having anything to play for, it has to do with them struggling. Anyone see Clayton Kershaw screaming and throwing stuff in the dugout after his last loss? Sure didn't look like a guy who didn't care because he had nothing to play for. If anything, when a team is as talented as the Dodgers are, it seems more likely that having no pressure would be a good thing. It just goes to show how unpredictable the game is. I find it difficult to believe anyone saw the Dodgers recent struggles coming before time. Now maybe if you're talking about the final week of the season when a team has locked up their spot in the post-season I can see them taking their foot off the gas, but the Dodgers are throwing Kershaw, Darvish, Bellinger, Seager and all the rest out there every night. This is an early unprecedented collapse/struggles by a dominant team.

Trout was two years younger than Lutz when each was drafted and was posting a .960 OPS in AA at the same age Lutz is now (Lutz is old for a first year player out of high school.) Two years? Thought he was less than one year older at the time each was drafted. Not that that OR what Trout did in AA really has anything to do with what he said. He was struggling to find a player who physically LOOKED the same and had great athletic ability. He didn't say Lutz was a once in ever 5 generational type talent. He said he "his strength, size and athleticism reminded him of Trout.

Moore would be perfect for me and a guy I'd be willing to give up a decent package for. Ortiz+Phillips maybe? I don't know how we matchup with them, but he's a talented lefty with good stuff and cheap(relatively speaking) and controllable for the next two years. I did just read that the Giants were almost certainly going to pick up Moore's options because A-They'd invested a bit into him and B-They think they can bounce back next year and that HE will bounce back next year. Guessing if the Giants will win a WS or lose 90 is like flipping a coin, but I would definitely be happy to get Moore for this year and the future. I've always been a fan. You'd have to really be confident he'd not only bounce back, but reach some of that upside though.

I see no mistake. The way I look at it we dodged a bullet NOT giving up premier talent like a Burnes or even Ponce and a couple other guys just on the off chance the Cubs continued to play poorly and we picked it up. And now with Nelson out, I'm that much happier that we didn't waste any assets on a trade. No Nelson means no chance in the playoffs. Lets say we got Gray for "just" Peralta, Phillips, Diaz and Ray. We still have to make the playoffs and then we're going into them with Gray, Anderson and Davies. That's just not good enough to beat the Dodgers or Nats, even with their struggles/injuries. As great as it would have been/would be to sneak into the playoffs this year, I don't think we really ever had a chance to make a real run in the playoffs. So...I feel the same now as I did at the deadline. Glad we didn't trade away talent for guys who weren't gonna put us over the edge.

That was what I had heard. They had told the league office that if they were awarded a claim they were going to release him. If it truly is Ringo...I'm kinda conflicted. What did you see in the last week that makes you believe Ringo's now better and more worthy of a spot than Francois? The move cost you nearly 1.7 million had you done it before last week. On other hand, had better to right a wrong and admit a mistake than stick to your guns to save face. I really liked Ringo, but I'm not sure if that's just because he looks like Daniels and has played a LITTLE like him in some limited pre-season snaps. Or maybe this move was entirely because of the addition of Dial. I really like our top 3 DL in Daniels, Clark and Lowry. I kinda wish we played a bit more base with them, but we seem to favor the 2-4-5 now with 3 safeties on a lot of plays so not that big. Gunter was a surprise after he made the 53 man. I thought there was an outside shot he'd get let go with the play of Hawkins and the health of Randall and Rollins, but it sounds like he may stick around and play on the practice squad. Honestly it doesn't make much sense to me to keep sooo many mediocre backup OL. McCray or Patrick would seem to be more obvious choices...but...I don't make the decisions.

Absolutely. Plus, Anderson has a relatively fresh arm, and is the type of guy who seems to get better and sharper the more he pitches. You can't just sit back and play it safe if you want to make up these games over the last 3 weeks. I like the way he's handling that 4th spot right now...just basically a long reliever and then BP by committee the rest of the way giving our young guys a chance to PH. Well, first of all, we didn't really have any options until we added one late inning guy via trade and the other option was a young prospect who we didn't want to work too hard and needed 3 days off between appearances. And as far as Villar, I really like him and I hope he's part of our future, I hope he's given the first shot at 2nd base next year, but Walker's also playing well(.845 OPS in twice the AB's) not to mention Villar's got a nearly .500 BABIP during that time. I'm sure if he hadn't struggled early, and we hadn't needed to trade for Walker, we'd be running Villar out there now, but he did and we are. If Villar hadn't struggled sooo badly in CF(not his fault) then he'd probably be playing more. But you can't Kotsay games away here... I have to be honest, I'm a little surprised people have lost confidence in CC. Doesn't anyone believe that maybe his nature has helped this team believe they could compete when they had absolutely no reason to coming into the year? We're complaining about his moves, but it's not like you want to start Villar over Arcia or Shaw, can't start him in CF and it's pretty close between he and Walker. To me, he's a huge part of the reason they're here. I think he's gonna be a Tom Kelly/Ron Gardenhire type of guy in that he comes in during a rebuild and ends up sticking around for a long time. Hopefully this move works out. But mainly I'm good with it because Anderson threw so few pitches and, again, if fresh.

Everyone wanted Watt. But very-very few Packers fans were upset after the way the draft played out. If there are people calling for Thompson's head in 3-4 years(IF-IF-IF King/Biegel aren't studs and Watt is a star) it'll be disingenuous. Rollins is a guy who is really versatile. I think he's basically a little more athletic version of Hyde. Randall is more of a quick twitch athlete and is more capable of playing outside. Both played very well this past week(as well as their rookie years and early last year before getting hurt, see Randall's game saving play vs Jax). Heck, we never would have let Heyward go had Randall and Rollins not played so well as rookies. That's a move that you can't blame Thompson for, but in retrospect would have liked to have been able to go back and do differently. But as you say, we lost our #1 WR'er. I would like to see them upgrade their MLB'er position and I think Foster could be really good, but I'd have been upset if they'd have gone that direction over CB/OLB'er. That was closer to RB in terms of need. It's not a surprise though when you lose one of the best players in the game at a particular position when you try to replenish that the following year. Frankly, Thompson blew it the last couple times we had significant injuries to big time players(Collins and Finley) by not addressing the problem and we ended up blowing games because we had Peprah, M.D Jennings, Banjo, Quarless, Bostick, Backman, Perillo among others. So we had to do something at CB and there just happened to be a group of players available that were ranked similarly at least from the outside, one of whom we were guaranteed to get if we moved back. And had Thompson NOT picked a CB first, I think that would have gotten a lot of negative reactions. You really do need to be 4-5 deep there. I wish I could have worded this better. I don't think it's really fair to make this a Watt vs King/Biegel type thread. It's really just a TJ Watt thread...though the comparisons are inevitably going to be made. I'm still really high on King and think Biegel could be a solid rotational player. An upgrade from Fackrell at least. Now Thompson could have made everyone happy by finally going out and nabbing a top free agent in Gillmore or AJ Boyle for roughly what Shields was making and then grabbed Watt in the 1st...but that was never gonna happen.

It's just totally ridiculous to call either a scrub at this point in their career first of all. Especially when they both had very strong rookie seasons despite such limited experience playing football, and then like you say, suffered injuries that Corners just cannot play with. If anything, they shouldn't have been out there at all last year. I don't know how the hell anyone could cover an NFL WR'er less than a month and a half after having surgery for a torn groin. It's just insane given the change of direction needed. Also, this is just speculation that he drafted for need. Nobody knows that to be the case and people DEFINITELY weren't upset during the draft. Almost every Packers fan at the time was thrilled with what they came away with. Lets keep in mind, as long and as athletic as Watt looks, it takes longer for a CB to develop and we DO have a 6'3 CB who ran a 4.4 40 and who showed in the pre-season he can come up and hit a guy. This thread is NOT meant to be a referendum so much on King(especially at this point) as how surprisingly impressive Watt has looked(through one regular season game and the pre-season).

So drafting for need instead of BPA? My guess is that their boards has King really close to Watt. In fact, I don't remember who the 5 guys were(you mentioned Foster) but there were 5 guys who fit our needs and who were all really good players. I think at the Packers pick, they just saw a group of guys all rated really close on their board and jumped on the chance to grab the 1st pick in the 4th. And you know in the NFL need is always factored into picking unless there's a major discrepancy. So if they had Watt just a hair above King, thought they could trade back and get King, it made sense. I don't think they thought there was any chance Watt would be available at 33 with the Steelers lurking, but maybe I'm wrong. And I don't think it's because Watt's a Wisconsin kid. I think it's because he has a Brother who's on his way to becoming an all-time great and he's jumped out to a ridiculously good start. Though maybe having watched him make some of the plays he made last year did help bump him up. That screen that he picked and took to the house really stands out in my mind as being an extremely athletic play.

I haven't seen anyone..at least up until your post suggest otherwise. In fact, I tried to go out of my way to say that this had nothing to do with King or Biegel and that it's way too early to say anything about them(good or bad). But I also certainly don't buy that the pressure he would have faced would have meant anything....like..at all. Biegel's from closer to GB and played at Wisconsin. Watt has an older Brother who's the best player in the NFL when compared to others at his position. And he went to a team that's produced HOF, AP and Pro Bowl LB'ers non-stop for decades. I think the pressure is there. Also, while Watt wasn't known for durability, it was a broken foot and it was one season. There was no strong argument AGAINST Watt. The argument was more FOR a CB. I will never be one of those who bashes TT regardless how good TJ becomes...even if he becomes better than JJ, because at the time, it was hard to argue with his logic. This thread has been about how good TJ Watt is, not about what King or Biegel have or haven't done.

Why post it in blue? It's likely true and there's nothing wrong with that thinking. The big club in a hot race and they are short on starting pitching. They wouldn't sabatoge the AAA team to do so. They would just call up the guys they wanted like they have. They're not starting Brooks SO CS loses...though I can't really see a good reason why they are.

I would honestly go with Wily Peralta myself. I know I'll get killed for this and I know that it PROBABLY wouldn't work, but we need a guy who at least has the potential to step in and perform like a 2/3. Peralta has the stuff. And when he attacks and goes after guys, he's really good. So while it maybe a long shot, I would hope that he could come in, throw strikes...strikes from Peralta lead to outs and he could get on a roll. After that, just in case I haven't made enough heads explode on here, I'd go with Guerra. When he came back, he had one start in which his stuff looked really-really good. He went 5 shutout and then gave up a 3 spot maybe in the 6th, then had another start that was like 4 innings, gave up a 2 run shot and left with a couple guys on and they all came around to score. The final game before he was taken out I was watching. He threw 3 innings, had 4 K's, gave up just 1 hit, but he was nibbling around the strike zone and then he started to really miss with the fastball bouncing a couple. So he was certainly not great by any means, but I also didn't think it warranted be taken out of the rotation after the year he had last year. My 3rd option would be Jungman. As mentioned previously, he had a good run as a rookie, then a short stretch where he struggled and hasn't been given another shot. I think we need to be a little bit more patient with our younger guys and a little less with our older guys. I'd take any of these 3 over Garza again. I know people will flip out over the Wily idea and I get why, but my reasoning is simple. We need to replace ace like production and while Wily has been MILES away from that, he's got the best stuff out of anyone in AAA or the big league team most likely and at least has a chance to do that. And if he's awful...then at least you're not just doing the same thing by pitching Garza again. I'd rather fail going for it with someone else than fail by going BACK to Garza. Also, while I was the one who suggested Burnes about a month ago, I wouldn't want to get him to start throwing again after the year he had and 160 innings, and I wouldn't want to stress Freddy Peralta's arm at this point either. Young guys who thought their season was over getting called up to not only pitch, but to take the spot of Jimmy Nelson are susceptible to over-throwing and probably already suffering a little arm fatigue and too important to the future to bother with now. I'll sit back and wait for the meme's and wait for people to clean their screens and keyboards after I endorsed Wily, Junior and Jungman in that order. Edit-Ok, in fairness, I did NOT see that Wily had just given up 4 earned and 4 BB's in 1 inning to cost CS the game yesterday in their playoff series. Sooo....yeah.

Amazing what a few months does. adambr-Really couldn't have nailed this one any more. I also thought they should make the trade but wasn't that disappointed about it. Again adambr As for the last two, definitely not trying to call out anyone here. Not sure if I'd have been a fan of just getting Bellinger back(I will admit to not being as well versed in other teams prospects the last few years). But...at this point if Braun has another year better than Bellinger I'd be happy. Add to the fact that they're saying Bellinger is a GG caliber defender at 1st base.... I guess this is what happens when you get the guy who built the Devil Rays/Rays into a perennial contender with the lowest payroll in the league and then goes to a team that spent 360 million dollars on players just a few years ago. Again, not trying to embarrass anyone...I thought that Justin Harrell was a good pick by Ted Thompson and still believed 3 years after...so people get things wrong. More of a proverbial tip of the cap to adambr.

So Aguilar should play more. Walker could play 1B a day a week. Aguilar 2nd half-.207/.278/.402 So maybe Villar at 2nd and Walker at 1st is the best option right now. Though I still feel like Aguilar has hit the ball hard in the 2nd half. I don't have the stats to back me up other than a .240 BABIP, just going off memory here. After the Nelson injury, they're gonna need a lot more offense and then hope someone can put together a nice run in his stead. Maybe Guerra can get back to last years production.

He had huge numbers....but it was Iowa State. So hard to say. I think they've been a 3-4 win team for the last 5 or so years. Pretty bad program. And it took a 4th quarter comeback and OT. That said, he did throw two really nice fades inside the 20-25 yardline and then made a nice throw to win it in OT from the 5. Scrambled, rolled to his right and then threw it where only his guy had a chance to get it. His other 2 TD's were on a little bubble screen where it didn't go pass the LOS and then on a little check down where his back just made guys miss and took it 50 yards. So maybe. That said, we signed Hornibrook the year before and we signed Coan this past year. Coan was just slightly higher rated(20th PPQB) and Hornibrook was rated lower but in a better class(41stPPGB). Stanley was the 20th rated Pocket Passer. He is at a Wisconsin like program that seems to constantly develop 2-3 star recruits and turn them into NFL players, so we'll see. I'll be rooting for him for no other reason than he's a Wisconsin guy.