UpandIn

That was a win with or without the trade. Getting 29 HRs, 124 wRC+ from our RFer for JBJ was the win. Getting what looks like two soft tossers and then the lowest rated prospect being the one with the best stuff doesn't make it more of a win. Again, if this would have been Wong, that would have made sense. You're trading a LHed hitter on a team that desperately needs hitters who can hit lefties and you'd be replacing him with a lefty. What we're doing is trading a RHed hitter and likely replacing him with rookies who are LHed hitters. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. BUT...we'll see what they do. There are a dozen more moves coming. I just wish at least if we were going to get a bunch of AAA/AAAA arms(thus far in their careers) the "higher rated" arms would have been more power arms. I also think the "5 teams in 5 years so maybe something is going on there," is an argument made in bad faith. We watched him all year last year. He went out, played hard, hit the ball well. Never heard a word about it. He was in SD for several years, traded as part of a deal that sent Jake Cronenworth and Tommy Pham back to SD from Tampa Bay. He has the ONE bad year of his career in TB, hits .156 and Boston signs him(3rd team). We come in, make a trade that EVERY Brewers fans is praising Stearns for as being a genius...getting out from JBJ for a power hitting RFer. Then when we go ahead and trade him after absolutely no signs that he was anything but a good teammate, professional and a good hitter and start inferring there must be some character flaw for him to have played on so many teams? C'mon...that's a lazy point.

Our lineup(as of now) vs left handed pitchers?

Renfroe literally had a higher OPS, SLG and BA the year before in Boston in more ABs. He also has a ~900 OPS vs lefties(which we struggle badly to hit). He's 31 and it was one more year. You just got rid of the best hitter on the team, one who hits lefties. So...really hope you got some talented arms that can make an impact as there's really no reason to expect a big drop off next year.

Crowder is a really nice player and would have been a really good fit early last year when we lost Tucker, but with Carter, Beauchamp, Ingles all coming back, Serge looks like he's moving much better(even Hill looks like he's healthy and moving better...even if that's not translating into actually hitting his shots). I'd rather wait for the deadline when I think there will be teams looking to dump a salary and take back a young player like Nwora, who has some upside, Hill, who is on an expiring and Allen who is on a very team friendly deal. Crowder definitely fits the bill as someone who can help defend and switch seamlessly, but I think we addressed that when we added Beauchamp and Carter to a degree and I really like the D at the moment. Two guys in the backcourt who can defend, Marjon can defend multiple positions. Middleton is a solid defender. It was a great fit, I just...again, think at the deadline there will be better players available.

This is a team without Gary, Stokes, Campbell hasn't been playing, Doubs, a whole lot of young players who are VERY talented, but not the type of players we can rely on with all the other injuries to suddenly get it together down the stretch and go on a run like they have in the past. They may technically still control their own destiny, but this team is just not good enough. I don't think the problems are that huge and I think the nature of the NFL allows for quick turnarounds, but I'm chalking this season as a lost season. Honestly, one Gary suffered that non-contact injury, that was it. We were one of the best teams at pressuring the QB this year. You take a guy like Gary out of your front 7, it's almost like taking out a guy like Adams from your WRer core. Incidentally, Adams is not happy in LV and there are rumors the Raiders may look to move off Carr and Adams next year and go for a full rebuild. How funny would it be to turn around and re-aquire Adams? It's obviously a ridiculous scenario, but one that's been seriously suggested. Given the low price(Salary cap wise) and the fact that you could make Watson/Doubs/Toure or whomever else you pick up down...that'd be fun. To be clear, I don't think it's going to happen...but if the Raiders are rebuilding, I also think a top 10-14 pick would be MORE than enough.

I think there's a lot of value to giving Love some playing time this year. You have to have SOME idea what he looks like with this group before you make a decision next year in the draft. Given ALL the possible directions this team could go...one of them is moving on from Rodgers and trying to determine who their next QB is. NOW you start hearing scouts talking about how the class after this year is looking good at QB(I have no idea, but when I see a North Carolina QB atop the list, I'm a little skeptical). I think the best for the Packers chances to win in '23 would be to get Rodgers more reps with Watson and Toure right now and then hopefully Doubs at some point. But Rodgers may not be back.

Right...and again, to be clear, I wasn't actually suggesting I thought that deal would get it done. I guess it's possible as every team has their own scouting reports, but I'd think they could get better value and players who offer more immediate returns and certainty at the big league level as they look like they're a legitimate contender as of now.

Right...and again, to be clear, I wasn't actually suggesting I thought that deal would get it done. I guess it's possible as every team has their own scouting reports, but I'd think they could get better value and players who offer more immediate returns and certainty at the big league level as they look like they're a legitimate contender as of now.

I didn't say he was a "throw in" type player, I said I'd throw him into that deal as A-He fits what Toronto needs(they went out and got JBJ to get a left handed hitting CFer last year) and Lauer for Kirk is SOOO far away from being worth it for Toronto, it's not even funny. I don't think it'll matter though as I don't think the Blue Jays would seriously entertain Lauer, Mitchell and Wong for Kirk. They'd almost certainly want Frelick and even at that point, I don't know if they make that deal for Kirk and they definitely don't for Moreno.

I didn't say he was a "throw in" type player, I said I'd throw him into that deal as A-He fits what Toronto needs(they went out and got JBJ to get a left handed hitting CFer last year) and Lauer for Kirk is SOOO far away from being worth it for Toronto, it's not even funny. I don't think it'll matter though as I don't think the Blue Jays would seriously entertain Lauer, Mitchell and Wong for Kirk. They'd almost certainly want Frelick and even at that point, I don't know if they make that deal for Kirk and they definitely don't for Moreno.

Agreed...though I sure as hell wouldn't give a 2nd thought about dealing him for Kirk. I'd throw in Mitchell and Wong. Fill two more needs for the Jays, left handed bat and another good defensive OFer and a 2B. Right now, they've got 9 RHed hitters in their lineup. Moreno is ready to play right now. So they've got 3 catchers. I don't think any are getting dealt for that particular package save for maybe Jansen. Could solve the catching problem and our issues vs lefties. And, again, assuming it's Jansen as the other two seem just that much more valuable with their service time...even if Kirk is less than ideal as an everyday catch, it'd be a good bridge to Quero. Quero should start in HiA I'd guess...given the limited # of at bats. Gives him 2 years to be our primary catcher. It's a stretch, but if we're going to deal Lauer, it should be part of a package for a significant upgrade.

Agreed...though I sure as hell wouldn't give a 2nd thought about dealing him for Kirk. I'd throw in Mitchell and Wong. Fill two more needs for the Jays, left handed bat and another good defensive OFer and a 2B. Right now, they've got 9 RHed hitters in their lineup. Moreno is ready to play right now. So they've got 3 catchers. I don't think any are getting dealt for that particular package save for maybe Jansen. Could solve the catching problem and our issues vs lefties. And, again, assuming it's Jansen as the other two seem just that much more valuable with their service time...even if Kirk is less than ideal as an everyday catch, it'd be a good bridge to Quero. Quero should start in HiA I'd guess...given the limited # of at bats. Gives him 2 years to be our primary catcher. It's a stretch, but if we're going to deal Lauer, it should be part of a package for a significant upgrade.

Once they've met the requirements, they're able to be optioned. Or at least that's how it had been. I believe the Brewers used an option on Wang after the 2016 or 2017 season.

Yes. I really do. He has been really good 3 years. This year was just a confluence of events that...was awful. I think a lot of teams would be in a rush to hire him. I don't think he's the problem(though...as the HC, he deserves the blame). But if Aaron Rodgers is just...average QB accurate tonight on 3-4 BIG completions over the Middle, the Packers very possibly win this one. The 4th down to Watkins. The play on 1st and 20 when he missed Lazard throwing it 2 feet over our 6'5 WRers head. Then another to Lazard and...IDR, at least one more. Thumb has to be bothering him. He had pretty good protection. Guys were getting open(compared to the rest of the season). It'd be nice to get Hackett back next year, get a real DC like we got a real STC(despite a blocked kick). An article about Johnny Grey possibly taking over for Barry that I just found googling, "Packers potential DC 2023." There's too much talent to be this average or bad depending on the week. I did like the 4 DL this game. I didn't like Savage in man on Treylon Burks, but...whatever. Going to bed. Taking friends up to the cabin tomorrow so they can go Deer hunting and I can drink beer and sleep in! I'll commiserate next week!

Yeah, no question about that. This team is bad, but you can tell the people who revel in it and those who are just frustrated by it. This has just been a nightmare year. From Adams leaving, to Watson struggling early, Bakh and Jenkins struggling, Gary going down. I think the Saints were talking about 1st round picks for Payton. He's under contract through 2024 with them. For some reason I think each year he's out counts vs a player where they are just under control forever if they don't finish out the contract. I think Rodgers has to commit to 2 more years if the Packers are going to try and re-load again next year(pushing the cap purgatory further down and through Love's 4 years).

I'm not even looking for a miracle, I'd just like to see how Grey does. For a TINY second there was MAYBE some hope with a TNF game at home that we'd win 2 in a row, get a bye and then...who knows. But this sealed it. Philly is the worst matchup for us. We don't have Gary. Lets see if Grey can get the secondary to communicate better, to cover, get more out of Savage...just see what the young guys have. Good time for Rodgers to let that thumb heal up for a few weeks. Let Love play. We REALLY have to find out if some of these young guys can be part of next years team. Positives-Bakh and Jenkins both played, both looked good for the most part. -We've been disabused of the idea that this team is going on a run in the most winnable NFC in years. -Watson made a couple more plays(his sister is getting a little cocky online talking about she needs to ask her brother what type of bag he uses to carry this team, so she seems like she's going to be annoying for a while, but I'll take the trade off). Sammy Watkins should be gone. At least try Travis Fulgham or whatever it is. He can't be worse. Toure looked like he could get open. -Quay and Enagbare looked...good at times. Negatives -None. We know this team isn't good, a win here would have just hurt draft position(even though I can't actually root for that during the game). 12th pick at the moment and could easily end up top 10. That could be an instant impact player. I guess the seeming lack of heart effort and Vrabel saying "the more physical team is going to win," and then proving that to be absolutely correct. This team has WAY too much talent even now to be this bad.

I agree. When he had that 3 HR game and his OPS jumped 30 points, I wondered if that might be enough for us to save 2M by picking up the option and then dealing him. Teams are interested, we have Turang. It depends on what the offer is or what we could get back for him, but...kinda feels like an obvious place to go with the young guy and save 10M while also getting maybe a nice reliever back. Brice Miller would be an outstanding option and for that reason, a very unlikely one. BUT the Mariners are also looking for corner OF help to go with newly acquired Hernandez and Rodriguez(though...they seem set to me). I don't know what else we could offer, so he's probably off the table, but Matt Brash+Isaiah Campbell? That could be interesting... Two power relievers with a second plus pitch, both are cheap? Who knows...seemed like this guy was gone when he had the yips in the field and was not hitting, but the final line still looks good and there aren't a lot of 2B options. And we have one of our own.

Revenue is up, this might be the last best chance to win it with Burnes, Woody and Adames(unless we plan on letting them walk in Free Agency). We just saw the Phillies go toe to toe with the Astros. I can't find a whole lot of Free Agents that fit. I love Abreu. I think you'd be fine with Tellez and Abreu if you've got a bunch of young OFers who can play all 3 spots, a bunch of IFers who are versatile... Wilson Contreas would also make sense. An article in the The Athletic actually had him getting a 3/36M contract. That seems about 2 years and...close to 70M short of what I think he's going to get, but...whatever. 3/60M would actually make sense for a player like him. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-top-50-free-agents/ Fangraphs has him at 4/80 but they talk about potentially moving him out from behind the plate...to DH, corner OF. Obviously that'd be...pointless for the Brewers. I haven't dug too far into his defensive metrics, but he's always passed the 'ole unreliable eye test. Josh Bell projection 1/9M. That is...not going to happen, but would also be worth it. I know some don't like him as he's been inconsistent, but for 1/9, I'll take him. They have Rodgers getting 3/30. I know he's better than he was in Milwaukee, but I'll still pass. I'm sure he'll be better at his next stop, but he'll be tied to the Hader deal. One kinda out of the box type idea, Carlos Rodon at 5/120? Reasonable contract, get a Burnes/Woodruff/Rodon trio for a year with Peralta and I guess Lauer as Ashby and Houser strike me as better relievers. I don't have a single clue what the hell this team is gonna do, but I hope it's something. I think Rodon and Contreras have good value at ~20 a year for 4-5 years. It'd hurt with Yelich, but if you're gonna make a big move, those would be big moves. Also risky ones as we need a guy who can stick at C and or a 3rd pitcher. I'm GUESSING we'll be sitting out the deGrom sweepstakes that fangraphs projects will get him a 3/141(I said 3/135 and someone thought I was crazy...and they probably weren't wrong, but a guy that talented, teams probably will get a little ridiculous).

I get all that, but Attanasio just said at the start of this past season, the Brewers didn't need public financing to maintain AmFam. So I suspect, IF he changes his tune or when he changes his tune on that, it'll be a couple years down the road. I'm not now and never have been an advocate for trading Burnes. He's the type of player you should re-sign. BUT...if the Brewers are offered some of the proposed deals, and Burnes doesn't want to sign...then I don't think it makes sense to lose Burnes for a comp pick because in the back of your mind you're going to have to come to the Brewers fan base and ask for money. I want to see the Brewers win...independent of a possible funding for the stadium in the near future...but what's really going to hurt is if the Brewers hold onto Burnes, Woodruff and Adames and then end up losing them for qualifying picks. I'd prefer to sign Burnes. I think that'll be the Brewers priority and I don't think it's as crazy as many on the board seems to believe. And if they don't sign him, Woodruff, then Adames. But if they can't...I just can't see them letting them walk in Free Agency. This isn't like the Prince team. This team has a lot of young talent in their farm system...and they've actually been able to develop pitching. I wouldn't count on developing guys like Burnes regularly, but Gasser, Misiorowski, Ashby, Peralta, if they could get a couple of high end arms to go with Chourio, Quero, Frelick, Black, Turang, Mitchell, Wiemer and all those players coming up. It's easier to sell the fanbase on an organization that's successful year after year. It also helps that local lawmakers have advocated for developing the area surrounding Miller Park. The Brewers are going into this year with the plan to build around their core. I'd only deviate if it was something like one of the Dodgers proposals(Vargas/Miller/Stone/Pepiot) 3 of them or...whatever, that's been discussed to death. But you're saying the next TWO years. If they don't sign Burnes, you'd be comfortable just letting those three players who make-up the core for QO's and comp picks? I think that would probably hurt the scenario you're talking about more than help it. I don't know though. Right now AmFam is fine, they've spent money to keep it up to date, the Brewers are keeping their players together for 2023, they have young exciting players...maybe the most exciting prospect they've had in a VERY long time. Things seem pretty good to me all in all.

Right. I don't believe they will non-tender him. You do. To recap this discussion, YOU listed the players we'd be "losing," I then said we wouldn't be losing them for nothing IF we did. Just...a hypothetical, from a Twins message board; So...basically, a AA reliever and a MLB reliever with a upper 90s fastball. Again, I don't see the Brewers dumping their best hitter from last year so they can go with 3 rookies and Yelich in the OF... 3.47 ERA and an ERA+ of 107 and 130 the past two years(with nearly a quarter of his Earned runs coming in two starts inflated even those numbers this year). That seems like a BIT more than a "back of the rotation, innings eater. Nothing more." That's definitely something...more than that. Again, you came up with the scenario in which the only way the Brewers could afford Abreu was this cataclysmic event in which we had to rid ourself of these players who...apparently don't have a whole lot of value in your opinion. Am I the only one who thinks that? Doesn't seem like I'm "the only person on the planet" who thinks the Brewers COULD sign Abreu given there is additional TV revenue coming in this year that more than makes up for it. OR they could still deal Wong as I've suggested since Turang is ready in AAA. I guess I'll just have to take your word for it that I'm the ONLY one in the world in a year with increasing revenue and Mark Attanasio saying they'll be "very active" this off-season while talking about building around the core of this team! Now, lets circle back; I guess if you don't think they should even bother to tender Renfroe and that Lauer is "Nothing more" than an innings eater, the answer would then be pretty obvious. YEAH. Abreu would most definitely be worth the upgrade. In particular, his ability to hit left handed pitching and the 137 WRC+. Feels like you kinda answered your own question here! Just needed to work it out I guess?

Right. I don't believe they will non-tender him. You do. To recap this discussion, YOU listed the players we'd be "losing," I then said we wouldn't be losing them for nothing IF we did. Just...a hypothetical, from a Twins message board; So...basically, a AA reliever and a MLB reliever with a upper 90s fastball. Again, I don't see the Brewers dumping their best hitter from last year so they can go with 3 rookies and Yelich in the OF... 3.47 ERA and an ERA+ of 107 and 130 the past two years(with nearly a quarter of his Earned runs coming in two starts inflated even those numbers this year). That seems like a BIT more than a "back of the rotation, innings eater. Nothing more." That's definitely something...more than that. Again, you came up with the scenario in which the only way the Brewers could afford Abreu was this cataclysmic event in which we had to rid ourself of these players who...apparently don't have a whole lot of value in your opinion. Am I the only one who thinks that? Doesn't seem like I'm "the only person on the planet" who thinks the Brewers COULD sign Abreu given there is additional TV revenue coming in this year that more than makes up for it. OR they could still deal Wong as I've suggested since Turang is ready in AAA. I guess I'll just have to take your word for it that I'm the ONLY one in the world in a year with increasing revenue and Mark Attanasio saying they'll be "very active" this off-season while talking about building around the core of this team! Now, lets circle back; I guess if you don't think they should even bother to tender Renfroe and that Lauer is "Nothing more" than an innings eater, the answer would then be pretty obvious. YEAH. Abreu would most definitely be worth the upgrade. In particular, his ability to hit left handed pitching and the 137 WRC+. Feels like you kinda answered your own question here! Just needed to work it out I guess?

Yes, I know that. That was the first sentence in my post. They altered it slightly in '20...obviously given the 60 game season, so it was 40 days. However, this comment made me wonder if they'd changed the process somehow; This reads to me that if...hypothetically, Antoine Kelly was claimed in the rule 5 and was on the OD roster, and after 30 days on the active roster, he had an injury, an oblique, fatigue, whatever, then he is subject to waivers(there is no longer revokable waivers since '19, so just waivers). I was simply suggesting they could, depending on the time of the year, us the IL when they need another arm. This obviously goes for any pitcher, but this just so happens to be a lefty that was in our system and who's stuff is objectively elite(albeit raw and his command hasn't developed...though he did miss 2 years of his development). So when someone tells me if you claim a pitcher is injured, they're subject to waivers. That doesn't sound right...but perhaps it's in place to discourage teams from stashing players. I don't know...seems unlikely, but a lot changed the last couple years.

So you're saying if the Brewers pick up a player in the Rule 5 and he...injuries his arm or has an oblique(whatever) before he's been on the active roster for 90 days, then he has to be offered back to the original club? That has to be a very recent change...

They had him as one last year as well, but he's still going to be at 3 seasons, so he's still a RFA. 2019-PS until December-Inactive for 3 games and then on IR. 5 Games You need 6 for it to count as a fully accrued year. 2020-1st 2021-2nd 2022-3rd They'll need to put a tender on him, so he'll be a RFA, not an ERFA like I said, but still, cheap enough and a no-brainer to bring back.