And you have to include the clowns - their production is legitimate production, even if the production was barely legit. Sure -- but the context of this conversation is "a Brewers starting 2b". You can't interchange "average 2b" with "average starting/qualified 2b". I also think he has the potential to hit maybe 30-40 points higher than '08, and that would put him above average in the OPS department. So part of his averageishness is still potential - almost any upswing at all and he is beyond refute, average. Agreed. If he could hit .260 and still maintain his BB rate -- he would certainly be an average starter, if not better. With more than the UZR data point, I find it tough to argue he's definitely below average defensively and once again I think it's fairly easy to say he's about average, give or take. I find it tough to argue that he is an average fielder. He may have performed better in 2008, but I don't think it is fair to conclude that he has reached or sustained that plateau. He may have gotten a lot of fat bounces last year. Yadier Molina hit .304 last year, I don't think it is fair to conclude that he is now a .300 type of hitter. If he isn't average, are there 8 second basemen in the NL right now that you'd take over him without a second thought? He is probably the worst (save Sanchez) 2b that gets enough bats to qualify for a BA title playing 2b in the NL. Finally, FWIW, fangraphs has him with the 6th highest WPA among second basemen last year (and it's a positive number). *shrug* that's a pretty situational stat. I am not saying he sucks or anything like that. I think his value is in his price tag, he cost us ~$1M last year, and that is a good value, if he gets a big Arby's raise, his value is more questionable.