2022 Brewers Offense

[MVP2110]

56 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

No this lineup does not look good on paper or in the batters box. The discussion is about the Brewers offense not whether or not a guy like Cain can offer value despite hitting like a pitcher.

This is probably a bottom 10 lineup in baseball and certainly as bad a lineup as there is for any team considered a potential championship team. As for my posts if you don't like them you are free to ignore them. 

If you are going to say things like they are a bottom 10 lineup in baseball please show some facts as to how you got to that conclusion. Again they were 12th in runs scored in MLB last year, so how do they fall into the bottom 10?

[brewers888]

11 minutes ago, MVP2110 said:

If you are going to say things like they are a bottom 10 lineup in baseball please show some facts as to how you got to that conclusion. Again they were 12th in runs scored in MLB last year, so how do they fall into the bottom 10?

Tell me what teams if any that consider themselves championship contenders have an offense as bad as we do. Whether or not they are one of the worst ten offenses in baseball is up for debate but I think it’s pretty obvious as we are a couple of innings away from being shut out for the third time in our first 8 games that this offense is not nearly good enough.

[brewers888]

We avoided the shutout tonight but I think it’s obvious we need at least one if not two good hitters. If Conforto is healthy let’s sign him to a one year deal.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, brewers888 said:

Tell me what teams if any that consider themselves championship contenders have an offense as bad as we do. Whether or not they are one of the worst ten offenses in baseball is up for debate but I think it’s pretty obvious as we are a couple of innings away from being shut out for the third time in our first 8 games that this offense is not nearly good enough.

Stop moving the goalposts. Seriously, you’re arguing so disingenuously.  If you have a point to make, make it and use statistics to back it up. 

[Robocaller]

Does Counsell know:
1) Hiura has reverse splits (6 of his 9 PA are against lefties, which he doesn't hit well)?

2) That Tellez doesn't really have any platoon split?

3) That McCutchen sucks vs. RHP?

[Robocaller]

2 hours ago, brewers888 said:

We avoided the shutout tonight but I think it’s obvious we need at least one if not two good hitters. If Conforto is healthy let’s sign him to a one year deal.

You know that Urias will be back, right?

[brewers888]

6 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Stop moving the goalposts. Seriously, you’re arguing so disingenuously.  If you have a point to make, make it and use statistics to back it up. 

Analyze this lineup as if you are a fan of another team. Who in this lineup should the other team fear. At this current time I see no one with the possible exception of Adames.

Castellanos could have been that guy and he only would have cost about 5 million more per season than we are paying McCutchen and Jackie Renfroe. Yes Castellanos is signed for 5 years and we can dump McCutchen and Renfroe after this season but we need to be all in while we have Burnes. Hader, and Woodruff under contract. In a couple of years we will have to trade all three of those guys putting us in a rebuild situation so the Castellanos contract wouldn't mean so much without many other big money deals on the books.

This is the best pitching this team has ever had and we should be going all in during this window of contention. If you think this lineup is good enough thats fine but I don't think its nearly good enough and why I am so frustrated that we didn't do anything to meaningfully address it during the offseason.

[brewers888]

5 hours ago, Robocaller said:

You know that Urias will be back, right?

Yes Urias should help but I don't think its enough to make up for our pitiful overpaid outfield or the lack of pop in this lineup as a whole.

[BruisedCrew]

Anyone who plays fantasy baseball and takes time preparing for a draft using rankings or projections would notice that the Brewers don’t have one player who ranks in the top 10 in MLB at his position.

In the rankings I used from Yahoo and Fantasy Pros, in the preseason rankings of all hitters, the Brewers highest rated player is Yelich with a rank in the 50’s, and that ranking is based on a projection of 20-25 HRs and an OPS over .800. I think most of us would be extremely happy if Yelich could achieve those levels considering how he hit the last two years. 
 

Many teams, and all leading World Series contenders, have multiple hitters better than the Brewers best.  The Brewers lineup is populated with hitters who are generally average or worse for their positions. It shouldn’t be surprising if they end up near the middle of the pack or lower in runs scored. 
 

ETA- I should add that one team that produced a pretty effective offense last year without obvious stars on offense is the Giants, who somehow always seem to be greater than the sum of their parts. Maybe their odd, pitcher friendly park has something to do with having players who have more value in winning games than racking up fantasy points. 

[MVP2110]

11 hours ago, brewers888 said:

Tell me what teams if any that consider themselves championship contenders have an offense as bad as we do. Whether or not they are one of the worst ten offenses in baseball is up for debate but I think it’s pretty obvious as we are a couple of innings away from being shut out for the third time in our first 8 games that this offense is not nearly good enough.

I'm not saying the Brewers have an elite lineup. I'm asking you to back up your statements with facts. You have repeatedly said things like we have one of the worst lineups in baseball or our lineup is a bottom 10 lineup. I want to see what facts you are using to come to that conclusion. 

[brewers888]

19 minutes ago, MVP2110 said:

I'm not saying the Brewers have an elite lineup. I'm asking you to back up your statements with facts. You have repeatedly said things like we have one of the worst lineups in baseball or our lineup is a bottom 10 lineup. I want to see what facts you are using to come to that conclusion. 

We may not have a bottom 10 lineup because there are at least that many teams in complete tank mode but that doesn't mean our lineup is good enough to help us win the World Series which must be the goal at this point. As BruisedCrew pointed out we don't have one hitter projected to be in the top 10 at his position and thats an issue.   

[MVP2110]

42 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

We may not have a bottom 10 lineup because there are at least that many teams in complete tank mode but that doesn't mean our lineup is good enough to help us win the World Series which must be the goal at this point. As BruisedCrew pointed out we don't have one hitter projected to be in the top 10 at his position and thats an issue.   

So then what's the point of saying things like we have a bottom 10 lineup or our lineup is one of the worst in the league if you don't actually believe that. If you said something like we have an average lineup but I'm not sure it'll be good enough wouldn't solicit such harsh responses and we could have a genuine discussion on it, but instead you choose to use exaggerated rhetoric over and over again

[NBBrewFan]

Last year during the playoffs one of the interesting "stats" that was mentioned was that the Brewers lead the league (or were pretty high) in the % of runs scored after the 6th inning (or something like that, can't remember the exact details).  There's a lot of possible reasons for that, but last night was another perfect example.  Thru 6 innings the Brewers had 1 hit and 1 BB (no runs).  In the final 3 innings they had 5 hits, 1 BB and 1 Run. Why?  Well being up 8-1 the Cardinals are likely bringing in their mop up guy(s) so he's likely the worst pitcher (or 2 depending on the number of innings to cover).  So of course, average to poor hitters are going to be able to do some damage against the Cardinals 12th and 13th/14th pitchers.  Because the Brewers pitching is so good, over the course of a year they will end up winning enough to look like a World Series contender, but as we saw last year, a playoff team with very good starting pitching and an adequate and shortened bullpen (the 10th, 11th and 12th pitchers aren't seeing much action) they can't do diddly.  As I mentioned in one of the in-game threads, the roster construction where all of the players are about league average is a failure. 

Reason #1: Milwaukee is the smallest market and can't have a huge payroll so there are limits to what can be spent. It also means that changing a significant part of the roster will take time because you can't just buy everything in Free Agency, plus the failure to develop any bats over the last 5 years results in poor return for the few you got plus a desire not to give them up in trades.

Reason#2: The Brewers chose to build around an MVP level Christian Yelich and supplement with affordable players across the roster (especially with several elite pitchers that will start to eat bigger chunks of the payroll). Yelich imploded to a point where they have a lot of affordable players, but none of them are elite and they don't have many who can carry the team. As has been discussed here quite a bit, the failure of Yelich to be that elite bat (which they are paying for) really has impacted the results from way they have built this roster.  Sure, the pitching will right itself and be top 5-10 in baseball, but the offense as it is constructed just doesn't have the talent to score enough against the elite teams they will face in the playoffs to win many games, let alone a series.

So do we bemoan this for the next 154 games or realize that's what we are dealt and enjoy the ride.  Speaking from years of experience, enjoying the ride is way more fun.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Last season people were legitimately arguing that Adames could be an MVP candidate if he hadn't been traded for mid-season, and now the argument is we don't have *any* guys who are top 10 at their position?

How is Adames both an MVP level talent, and not a top 10 shortstop?  I don't care about fantasy baseball, and I'm pretty sure Stearns doesn't either.  I hope he cares about getting wins on the actual field.  

[brewers888]

1 hour ago, MVP2110 said:

So then what's the point of saying things like we have a bottom 10 lineup or our lineup is one of the worst in the league if you don't actually believe that. If you said something like we have an average lineup but I'm not sure it'll be good enough wouldn't solicit such harsh responses and we could have a genuine discussion on it, but instead you choose to use exaggerated rhetoric over and over again

We have the worst lineup of teams that consider themselves championship contenders. There are probably too many teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore who are purposely fielding terrible teams in order to draft higher but we are not contending with those teams anyway. So yes we may be above the bottom ten offenses but we will most likely have the worst offense of any team in the playoffs should we make it there.

 

[brewers888]

1 hour ago, RoCoBrewfan said:

Last season people were legitimately arguing that Adames could be an MVP candidate if he hadn't been traded for mid-season, and now the argument is we don't have *any* guys who are top 10 at their position?

How is Adames both an MVP level talent, and not a top 10 shortstop?  I don't care about fantasy baseball, and I'm pretty sure Stearns doesn't either.  I hope he cares about getting wins on the actual field.  

Adames absolutely can be a top 10 shortstop offensively but can you say that about any other player in this lineup besides holding on to the belief that Yelich can be that guy again.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

We have the worst lineup of teams that consider themselves championship contenders. There are probably too many teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore who are purposely fielding terrible teams in order to draft higher but we are not contending with those teams anyway. So yes we may be above the bottom ten offenses but we will most likely have the worst offense of any team in the playoffs should we make it there.

I think this is possibly true but I'm not certain it's going to be the case. I think most of the Brewers offensive potency hinges on Adames and Yelich. If Adames' 2021 was a fluke, that's really bad for the Brewers. If 2021 Yelich is the Yelich going forward, that's really bad for the Brewers.

But if both of them post an OPS at or above .800, I think the offense will be quite competitive. And it's simply too early to know how those two are going to play out this season.

[KeithStone53151]

15 hours ago, brewers888 said:

No this lineup does not look good on paper or in the batters box. The discussion is about the Brewers offense not whether or not a guy like Cain can offer value despite hitting like a pitcher.

This is probably a bottom 10 lineup in baseball and certainly as bad a lineup as there is for any team considered a potential championship team. As for my posts if you don't like them you are free to ignore them. 

If I was able to block your posts from my view so I didn't have to deal with your toxicity I would. Posters like you make the in game threads unbearable, and unenjoyable to participate or even view. You have your opinion on the lineup, I have mine.

[brewers888]

8 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I think this is possibly true but I'm not certain it's going to be the case. I think most of the Brewers offensive potency hinges on Adames and Yelich. If Adames' 2021 was a fluke, that's really bad for the Brewers. If 2021 Yelich is the Yelich going forward, that's really bad for the Brewers.

But if both of them post an OPS at or above .800, I think the offense will be quite competitive. And it's simply too early to know how those two are going to play out this season.

After the last two seasons it would be foolish to expect Yelich to be what we need. Obviously we all want Yelich to be good but I will believe it when I see it. As for Adames I expect good things but probably less than he gave us last season. So if Yelich is mediocre at best and Adames is good but not great how does this team compete with the playoff caliber teams we are competing against.

We needed to focus last offseason on getting an upper echelon bat like Castellanos but we went dumpster diving with Cutch and Renfroe instead. This team needs a big time hitter which we failed to get in the offseason. Hoping on Yelich being that guy is probably really foolish but thats where we are.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, brewers888 said:

After the last two seasons it would be foolish to expect Yelich to be what we need. Obviously we all want Yelich to be good but I will believe it when I see it. As for Adames I expect good things but probably less than he gave us last season. So if Yelich is mediocre at best and Adames is good but not great how does this team compete with the playoff caliber teams we are competing against.

We needed to focus last offseason on getting an upper echelon bat like Castellanos but we went dumpster diving with Cutch and Renfroe instead. This team needs a big time hitter which we failed to get in the offseason. Hoping on Yelich being that guy is probably really foolish but thats where we are.

Now Renfroe and McCutchen are dumpster diving? Yikes. While I was mildly disappointed with the lack of improvement on offense, both of those players are league average or slightly better.

Dumpster diving is when you back-fill your lineup with waiver wire pickups, not go out and pay legitimate MLB players legitimate MLB money. It's fine to be disappointed they didn't acquire Castellanos but let's at least be fair about this.

[brewers888]

Just now, Brock Beauchamp said:

Now Renfroe and McCutchen are dumpster diving? Yikes. While I was mildly disappointed with the lack of improvement on offense, both of those players are league average or slightly better.

Dumpster diving is when you back-fill your lineup with waiver wire pickups, not go out and pay legitimate MLB players legitimate MLB money. It's fine to be disappointed they didn't acquire Castellanos but let's at least be fair about this.

At this point in his career McCutchen is a right handed platoon bat that no other teams seemed to want and why he came so cheap. Renfroe is on his fourth team in as many years and was a complete contract dump by Boston. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

5 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

At this point in his career McCutchen is a right handed platoon bat that no other teams seemed to want and why he came so cheap. Renfroe is on his fourth team in as many years and was a complete contract dump by Boston. 

Both players had an OPS+ and wRC+ over 100 in 2021. My comment about them being league average or better is entirely accurate.

And referring to living, breathing human beings as dumpster trash is pretty bad form. Try to not do that, please.

[sveumrules]

Things like Top 10 at their position or Fantasy Rankings are largely irrelevant. An offense with the 11th best player at each position last year would have put up like 25 WAR, around 6th/7th in MLB.

Something like defense, which is tied directly to the offense (& worth zero Fantasy Points) is much more relevant, but the Brewers hitters are good at that so shhhhh.

All that really matters is the total value the position player group produces as a whole. Last year FanGraphs had them 10th in WAR, in 2019 they were 10th, in 2018 they were 6th. Over the last four seasons in aggregate they are 9th.

Sure, I’d love it if that value came a little more from the hitting side than the defense/base running side, but buying wRC+ is much more expensive than buying DRS & the Brewers only have so much money to spend.

If the offense is still sputtering 40+ games into the season like it was last year, I’d imagine Stearns & company will do something to address it.

Last year the Braves were 52-55 on August 1st, dove head first into the dumpster for Jorge Soler (77 OPS+), Eddie Rosario (86 OPS+) and Joc Pederson (91 OPS+), then rode the wave of hot garbage all the way through October.

[DuWayne Steurer]

39 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

After the last two seasons it would be foolish to expect Yelich to be what we need. Obviously we all want Yelich to be good but I will believe it when I see it. As for Adames I expect good things but probably less than he gave us last season. So if Yelich is mediocre at best and Adames is good but not great how does this team compete with the playoff caliber teams we are competing against.

We needed to focus last offseason on getting an upper echelon bat like Castellanos but we went dumpster diving with Cutch and Renfroe instead. This team needs a big time hitter which we failed to get in the offseason. Hoping on Yelich being that guy is probably really foolish but thats where we are.

I don't know how many more posts you're going to mention/wish that we would have signed Castellanos, but I'm gonna put the over/under at at least 300 posts.  

[sveumrules]

34 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

At this point in his career McCutchen is a right handed platoon bat that no other teams seemed to want and why he came so cheap. Renfroe is on his fourth team in as many years and was a complete contract dump by Boston. 

If no other team wanted McCutchen he would have signed for even less money than he did. That he signed for more than the minimum indicates other teams likely wanted him.

JBJ was the contract dump. If Renfroe was the contract dump Boston would have sent prospects back to us instead of the other way around.