HiAndTight

Agreed. Gamel has earned the job of LH'ed backup to Hart at the very least, and Hart hasn't been bullet proof the last couple of years with knee surgeries to start each season and lesser nagging injuries, including a foot injury, the type that can linger for certain individuals. I also agree with everyone else's take on Gamel. Still love his potential, but Aoki and Hart really spurred this team when they went on their run. Aoki gives us a fantastic leadoff hitter who does all the little things that have been missing from our lineup for a while IMO and I think he'll only get better in his second go around. I'm a huge Gamel fan, but you can't mess with what's working and working as well as it did after his injury. Sports aren't fair. If they where, he'd have played all year and finally broken out when given the chance.

Hey, I've already been on board for bringing back K-Rod for a cheaper salary, so if this drops his value even more, whatever. Yeah, probably needs help, but we're not conducting interviews for the Peace Corps. Guys do stupid things, and the fact that it took so long for this to get reported suggests it MAY not have been very serious. I don't know. Not condoning the act, but being realistic, it happens in athletics. The Packers certainly didn't shy away from Walden after his arrest.

By the way, the Packers are one of the founding professional football teams, they've got rivalry's with the same 3 other teams they've had for the last 40 years at least and longer with the Bears. Football games count for more, and it's a more popular sport, so obviously none of those rivalries are going to compare to baseball rivalries. And given recent history, the only team I feel even close to the same level of disdain for in baseball with the Brewers are the Cardinals, and I still don't hate them like I do the Vikings. Or the Bears for that matter.

I think the White Sox would clearly be the Brewers top rivalry if not for the obvious rivalry with the Cubs. The White Sox played games at County Stadium in the 60's to help bring baseball back to Milwaukee, but growing up, I don't recall a rivalry that was more volatile than the White Sox-Brewers. They got into it on a number of occasions and there was a lot of smack talking back and forth.

Are we just going to throw all Cardinal Free Agent pitchers into this grouping? When he's healthy, he's pretty damn good. And I don't recall Suppan ever dominating like Lohse has last year and over a 2 season period. Don't get me wrong, I'm not singing up for 5 years and 75 million like some are suggesting, or whatever the case may be. But we really need to put a lid on the Suppan deal. It didn't work out. He signed with Washington last year for 1 year 11 million. And they certainly weren't the prohibitive favorites picked to finish 4th in the AL East. A good team to sign on long term for, but not exactly the pick for this season. As others have said, Boras is no longer his agent. Not sure what his market value would be, but obviously I hope the Brewers decide what they think he's worth and don't deviate too much from that. 4/44 would be fine by me. 3/40 would be pushing it, but still in consideration. But we'll see if that gets it done. Not sure why his value would be so much higher this year than last year when he was the #4/5 pitcher on the Nats. He has been traded for some pretty valuable prospects/established players, so that makes a little sense as to why he's been traded and moved around so often.

You absolutely certain about the Delgado time frame? I was certainly under the impression that there was a rule in place at the time. You seem to have this pretty well covered and since you're citing Delgado in particular, you seem certain, so I'll defer to you. I was under the impression that there initially was the 80% rule for impending Free Agents in offering them arbitration.

Why would we go off a 90 million dollar payroll though? We've been significantly higher the last few years and we have a significant new revenue stream coming in starting this upcoming season. 90 million after ending '10 at 96 and starting last year at 106 with our new TV deal and the additional MLB revenue would be akin to having had a 70 million dollar payroll the last couple years. If the players are out there that are worth it. Not Kyle Lohse for 5/75 or anything, but players we want, 105 is a pretty safe bet. It's one of the huge luxuries of having good young players to fill our young bench, young starting pitchers, and an established closer. 5.1 seems pretty high for a guy entering his first year of arbitration though. 5.1 for a 1st year Arby eligible reliever seems incredibly high, especially given his numbers for this past year. If that is his number, I'd look at consider trading him after this season while his value is still high...provided his value is still high......obviously.

Stephen Drew, the guy who's an impending Free Agent, who had hit 193/.290/.311/.601 in 40 games for them this year after missing the second half of last year(in the midst of a down year that season as well). So he had virtually no value. The financial considerations haven't even been discussed. So once again, I think you're jumped the gun quite a bit here on bashing a trade and even bringing up Stephen Drew who again, had no value. So they moved Chris Young, a guy who's value has dropped significantly the last three years while his salary has risen significantly. He's owed 8.5 next year and 11 the following with a 1.5 million dollar buyout. And if they got Heath Bell for 2 years and 6-7 million, given his track record, and in particular his success in that division, not sure how this is such a "hilariously," bad deal. But again, when we don't know the main factor in this deal which is where the money is going and how much of it is changing places. If the D-backs leave this deal with the A's taking Young's salary and the Marlins eating 2/3rds of the Bell deal.....impossible to declare it a good, bad, or hilariously bad trade.

I would. Absolutely. I wouldn't trade for Lester because I think he's going to cost you a Peralta type prospect at least, or several other young arms. I wouldn't go the trade route because it's a LOT easier to recover from overspending than it is to recover from giving up young prospects. The Greinke deal and the Marcum deals have killed us. We need to keep adding the Coultier's, Roache's, the Jungman, Bradley and Lopez types to our system while developing the top of our pen. We can't move guys like that. Now those deals gave us a great two year window that led to a team record in wins, and we lost in the NLCS in 6 and a 2nd year where the glass on that window shattered because our closers closed that window pretty hard early on. But to have for instance Lawrie/Escobar/Weeks/Hart/Lucroy/Maldonado on the IF saving 36 million dollars, Cain in the OF, and Odorizzi on the mound, this team would be in a completely different situation. And I'm fine with where we're at now knowing what we'd be giving up. Though I always hated the Marcum deal and do believe Lawrie will fulfill his potential and become a true superstar, getting Greinke whom I've always coveted(and still do) made it worth it. But right now, spending money and taking a risk IMO is a lot less costly than spending prospects and taking a risk. I'd rather go 2 years of Peavy at 25 million or so than even 3 at 30 or 33, but I really would do either because the team has a massive hole right now atop it's rotation. At least if you think or want to be a playoff contender. Lester, in addition to costing 12.5 million over the next two years, is the exact type of pitcher the Red Sox SHOULD be building around. A 200 inning a year power lefty who's dominant at times and has the stuff to win a Cy Young? The 4 years prior to last year(which wasn't even a bad year, just not a great one for Lester) he AVERAGED; 3.33 ERA Threw 813 IP Nearly 9K/9IP Last year he threw over 200 innings, hits where up a bit, BB's and K's where down a bit, but he was also pitching on a depleted team. A rebuilding Red Sox team isn't likely to let their ace go for cheap. Basically, I think we're in a better position to spend money right now than to trade players. Now if the Red Sox want to bring Mark Rogers back to the region with Mat Gamel, and a couple lesser prospects, maybe a Gomez, fine. But how likely is that?

1 year? What high price bullpen solution has worked out well for the Brewers? In fact, how many high priced bullpen solutions have worked out well historically all around baseball? The problem with the hasn't been that Melvin has gone cheap, the problem with the pen was and still is that bullpen arms by their very nature aren't very reliable. FA pitching has been a horrible market for the Brewers, it's not any kind of long-term solution regardless of who's the GM. If you want to fix the Brewers' pitching issues the answer is the same as it's always been, the farm system. If we aren't developing any quality starting pitching then we won't be developing any quality bullpen arms either. The 2 go hand in hand and that's the problem, the Brewers have historically been horrible at developing pitching. I haven't read anyone who said that bullpen arms aren't important, but those roles aren't nearly as important as the starting pitching or position players. The failure of this year's bullpen was evidence that this whole notion of "proven players" is quite suspect regardless of cost or experience. This is especially true in the bullpen where the pitchers don't have the same opportunity to work on mechanics or their pitches in side bullpen sessions like a starting pitcher would. 1 or 2 horrible months for a reliever and their season is basically sunk because they'll never pitch enough innings to even the stats back out. The failure of the bullpen proved the volative nature of that kind of player, not how important their contribution is or isn't to the team. The most important question is why relief pitchers end up in that role in the first place... in almost all cases it's because they weren't good enough to be starting pitchers. If they were consistent or had great stuff they'd still be starting, it's very difficult to find relievers who will be consistent performers from year to year. This is why the theory should be to minimize the number of innings the bullpen has to pitch in the first place. Everyone agrees it'd be better to develop through the draft. I don't think anyone's EVER argued this point. I'd be absolutely giddy if we could go into every season and fill in our holes with unproven, but top talent from within rather than paying market value for free agents. But that's not reality and it's not something that can be immediately rectified RIGHT NOW. So...I obviously agree. I DON'T agree with your premise that relievers end up being relievers because they're not good enough to be starters. Some of them are just built better to be relievers, some don't have a 3rd pitch. But you don't have to search very hard to find teams chalk full of relievers who throw 95-97 or harder with a nasty secondary pitch.

To expound on this: His first 46 IP this year, Yo's ERA was over 5. Spending 10% of the teams budget on a guy who pitches 4% of the innings is just... well... stupid. Sadly, it's something the Brewers have done in 4 of the last 5 years. First of all, who wants to spend 10 million dollars on a guy who's going to throw 4 pct of the innings? I missed where that was suggested. I'm using 10 million just as a round number and I think we can safely say the Brewers budget will be at least 100 million going into this off-season. I suspect you're referring to a closer, which isn't really being discussed, but I've thrown away the cliche's that I've heard on here about how invaluable a closer is. A great closer can make or break your bullpen. But I don't want to go too far off on the closer thing. I went along with the saber line of thinking in that the closers position is overrated back to the place where I think closers one of the most important area's on the team. To play 8 innings, squeeze out 2-3 runs vs a frontline pitcher, get a great start, defense...and then have a closer come in and blow it is a devastating blow to a team, and when it happens 8-9 times over a season, it ruins your season. I think that's crazy to go into free agency with those types of restrictions. Especially when it appears we may have a starting rotation that will barely make 15 million dollars. I'm sure we'll sign someone, but YO, Estrada, Narveson, and the young guys in the mix(Some of who have spots close to locked down like Fiers and Peralta). And Gallardo's first 62 innings he had a 4.22 ERA. Not that I agree with the premise of that argument in the least bit as your comparing apples to oranges. I guess I didn't really understand that argument other than to point out that in a smaller number of innings, a guys ERA can fluctuate more. Which is obvious.

Wow. Didn't realize it was THAT bad.... I thought just off the top of my head it was in the 5's. Anyway, I still think he was fun to watch....though he'd be more fun to face....

Give Livan credit, he probably went out there with the worst stuff I've seen since Larry Bearnarth (RIP) made 2 appearances (10 hits, 6 runs, 3 IP) in 1971 with stuff that would embarrass most high school pitchers. I got almost giddy when he came into the game. It's hilarious watching a guy throw up the 14 different types of pitches he throws with 4 different curves, changes...everything BUT a fastball, and he's not terrible. He got lit up at times, but he's a guy who knows how to pitch. I don't know, most people probably didn't enjoy watching him because we where likely losing and by a lot, but there was something about that big old fat pitcher throwing the kitchen sink up there and still playing the game because he loves it that I liked. And I'd actually had a dislike for him going into the season. Don't mistake any of this with me wanting to bring him back however. If you're going into a season with him as a pitcher to count on, you're in trouble.

I don't want to clear 1B for Gamel. Corey was awesome there, no need to mess with what is working. Corey stays at 1B, and Aoki stays in RF... He certainly brought things together this year with regard to our lineup and defense, but "awesome," is pushing it a LITTLE bit. He was very good. Worth more than Chris Perez certainly, and if he could bring a nice return in exchange....it'd be something to consider as I do think that Gamel is a guy certainly capable of replacing Hart at 1st, and you'll need to spend probably 3/36 on Hart whereas Gamel would cost about 3/5 over that same time period. And "Working," is a relative term. They went on a run after falling 13 games behind, and got fat on some of the worst teams in baseball and had ONE really nice stretch of baseball. I'm torn here. Hart's 6'6 frame and 30 HR power was awesome to see. But Gamel's frame is good for a 1st basemen, I think he has more range, is more athletic, and I think he could very well hit for more average and only slightly less power as an everyday player...so I'd hate to see him go. I think Melvin should just play it out. I would see what Hart wants. If it's 3/30 I think I'd be good with that. If it's too much more, I'd go with Gamel and see what you could get. But just because his move to 1st happened to get Aoki into the leadoff spot and he had a monster year and he played well at 1st, I don't think that should lock you into any lineup that doesn't include Corey next year. Is the difference between Gamel and Hart equal to...lets say, JP Howell, Grant Balfour and a Mike Adams type revamp to our Bullpen? I'm just saying with Weeks hopefully bouncing back next year, Braun, Aram, healthy Lucroy and Maldy combo, Aoki, Gomez, Segura hopefully maturing, Gamel+the FA money saved and spent wisely, PLUS the prospects MAY be more valuable than Just Corey Hart. Plus I'll remind just once more, Hart has had knee surgeries in back to back spring trainings, and was hurt down the stretch. He gutted it out, and he's certainly not soft...just things to consider. I certainly won't be upset to see him back next year as it does change things having a 1B that size, but again, Gamel's pertty long and athletic himself.

So we're going to give up Hart who's going to make about 10 million for Chris Perez who is in his arby years and is getting expensive for the Indians(neither of which works). This setting aside the fact that Perez had a WAR of .8 the last TWO seasons combined while Hart has had a WAR of 7.2 and who completely solidified our lineup AND roster by moving Aoki to RF and Hart to 1st. If we're going to make a trade to KEEP Gamel and give him a job at 1st base, I'm probably one of the few believers who still believe he would be very good. As good as Hart in fact, but younger/cheaper. But I sure as heck would ask for a lot more than Chris Perez. I'd be asking for young talented position players, maybe a young 3rd basemen, a young talented...anything offensively. And if it is for a pitcher, Hart should at least be able to bring back a Johnny Helwegg type prospect, a top 100 prospect with BIG upside.

Mayo continues to be the only person outside of the Brewers organization who's really championed Jungmann's stuff at all, other people/publications have repeated his scouting report but those that have watched Jungmann pitch have pretty much all said the same thing. A disappointing situation to say the least. The top of 2011 draft #12 Jungmann, #15 Bradley, #70 Lopez is starting to look like the top of the 2009 draft #26 Arnett, #39 Ke Davis, #47 Heckathorn, #73 Walla. While he was far and away the best performer from the top of the 2011 class hopefully Jungmann finds some bite for his breaking stuff and Bradley/Lopez turn the corner, because right now it's fairly difficult to be excited/optimistic about the top of that class. 2009 Draft Class 2011 Draft Class It's looking like the Brewers are going to do better with the lower round picks from each draft as there are plenty of guys picked later who are performing well and/or have some exciting tools. Khris Davis and Hiram Burgos are 2009 draftees who will probably start next year in AAA and that 2011 class has a whole slew of players who are interesting starting with Gagnon. I've posted SEVERAL scouting reports that have Jungman and Bradley as both having the ceilings of front of the rotation type pitchers. Not sure why you continually ignore all of those, but it sounds like you insist on using your scouting report and then claim those are the scouting reports of everyone else. Where this myth comes from that the Brewers went safe...I'm not sure. Bradley was potentially one of the top 5 picks months/weeks from the draft. In fact, at the time of the draft, BA I believe it was had them rated 7th and 8th. If I remember correctly you also had Nelson pegged as a back of the rotation pitcher at best and then when he struggled in year one sang the same song. Are we really to the point where we're going to look at players first years in professional baseball at HiA and since they didn't do this or that dismiss them as safe and then in return bad picks. Both guys have the stuff to pitch on top of a rotation. And Lopez is still very young. By the way, I'm not sure how Kentrail Davis, playing in AA this year and putting up respectable numbers is such a huge bust. But hey, there is nothing easier than going back and looking at drafts and then looking at the players selected after your picks who have excelled and blame the Brewers for their scouting responsibility.

When and where should Green be playing right now that he isn't? I like him as a player, but has he EARNED time over Ramirez? Would you start him over Ishi at 1st? I certainly wouldn't. He's a very good defender and a better bat at this point off the bench. And Weeks is a core piece and has played like it over the last couple months. I mean, maybe he does "deserve," a better chance, but we're in a race...I don't where else you play him as of now other than off the bench. And while the Aram signing might hurt a lot in 2014, you certainly would have a hard time arguing he hasn't been a great FA sign thus far and well worth the deal... I think you missed the point of my previous post when I indicated Green was most likely odd man out on next year's 25 man roster because, a) he doesn't play ss as Bianchi does, b) Weeks and Ramirez play every day, and c) he's really not a 1B and the Brewers have better options for 1B backup. Green "deserves a better chance" going forward, but I don't see how he gets that chance with the Brewers. He may one of those guys Doug gives away to another organization so he gets that better chance. Ahh...I got ya now. All the same, baseball is a business, and Green right now is under contract with the Brewers for the next 5 years. So despite the fact that it might not be "fair," I'm less concerned with fair than I am with making sure the Brewers have protection in case they lose a player for an extended period of time, and he also happens to play the same position as our oldest everyday player. So rather than "giving," him an opportunity with another team so he gets to play, I'd rather see him on the Brewers bench, giving us a LH'ed bat with a little power to provide insurance on Green and give Aram a day off when he needs it. I know it sucks for Green, but he's still in the big leagues earning roughly 500K a year and, again, if he can play, he'll get his chance eventually.

Yeah...they say that. About people who complain about others doing what they do. This damn "whoo'ing," is about as obnoxious as it gets. I think the few people who where doing it at the games where clowns. An inning...fine. But non-freakin'-stop all game long? Really? That's your idea of fun? No, your goal is to annoy the hell outta anyone and everyone around you, as well as the TV audience. Schroeder had a hilarious line on it when they actually had one of those horns to make the sound. But yeah, from 1st pitch to last pitch, you're just trying to piss people off. So...mission accomplished as those games where getting just miserable to listen to.

That Trout has been a much better overall player, and the most valuable player doesn't mean the league leader in a couple of statistical area's? Trout's War-9.7 Cabrera's War-6.7 and has never has a season as good as Trout's and Trout missed a month. Or that one is an elite defensive CF'er who's robbed 4 HR's this year and has 80 speed while Cabrera is a terrible defender at 3rd base? Or that one is an exceptional base runner while the other isn't. He has 47 SB's and been caught just 4 times. That's...ridiculous. He's scored 125 runs...which is obviously in large part a function of who is hitting behind you, but it's also clearly evident he's wreaked havoc on the base paths. I think the justification is simply who is the better player, and that has been Trout easily. Oh, and by the way, just as an offensive player, Trout has an OPS+ of 167 while Cabrera has a OPS+ of 165. So you can actually make an argument that he's a BETTER offensive player than Cabrera while also making a definitive statement that his defense is ridiculously more valuable than Cabrera. Edit-Within a minute or two of typing this, Cabrera just hit his 43rd HR of the season making meaning as of now, he'd be credited with a triple crown. I also want to articulate how impressive the triple crown is. What Miggy can do as a hitter is amazing. However....it's simply not as amazing as the 20 year old CF'er playing in LA.

When a guy's already done something, doesn't that lead you to believe him when he says he's willing to do it again? He made it clear when he signed a below market value deal signing for 3/27, especially since it was HIS idea to approach the Brewers about an extension because he liked Milwaukee and didn't want to get traded. I've consistently believed Hart was going to fall off a cliff, however he hasn't, he's continued to get better IMO and he makes such a profound impact on the teams IF defense that while I've advocated trading him the last several years, he's convinced me he's worth re-signing if it's a 3 year type deal. And this isn't the type of cliche comments you hear about liking where you play. He goes out of his way to articulate how he wants to end his career in Milwaukee and wants to stay with this group. My only complaint now....he wasn't a better salesmen as Greinke didn't take his advice.

I completely agree. I think he's going to be a sub 4.00 pitcher for the most part because of his sharp curve, his change is very good, his cutter is extremely effective, and his fastball delivery, as has been noted apparently hides the ball well enough that it gets on the hitter faster than the radar gun would read. I don't see much of a difference between he and Marcum, other than I think his curve is MORE of a strikeout pitch than Marcum's change, and I think that makes him more like a "power," pitcher rather than a finesse pitcher, despite not having great command. And if he does get bumped from the rotation, I think that's only going to be a product of the Brewers young arms producing well enough that a particular pitcher forces Fiers out. I could also see him become a mainstay in the rotation for 6 years and a real stabilizing force in our rotation with all the volatility we're going to have with guys like Rogers(injury risk), Peralta and his command issues and other young pitchers in general.

I think that's a pretty common opinion among GM's. Just guessing, and I have heard Melvin say that very thing. So I think he'd gladly bring K-Rod back. However I don't think they pay him as a top SU man. If it's a 3 year deal for 4-5 million, then I wouldn't want him back either. But if it's a one year deal in the 4 million dollar range, maybe with an option year for 4 million and a 500K buyout so he can bring his value back up. I guess I have contradicting opinions to some degree. I think he's regained the form that made him almost automatic last year in the 8th inning and could help the pen regain it's 2011 form. But I don't think he's worth a multi-year deal in the 4-5 million dollar range. This will probably play out well into free agency. Let him gauge the market for him, let the Brewers see what's out there(and I'm still a big Grant Balfour fan). And if he doesn't get the type of deal he's looking for and wants to play on a contender, I could see him coming back. And he's been so spectacular during this stretch we've been in, I can't help but think that's closer to the K-Rod than the one who was leaving the fastball up earlier in the season, and couldn't get his curve over.

Well suffice to say I strongly disagree. I think he has the best control of anyone in our BP. He usually walks guys because he's working the corners. But is it fair to say then that you don't want Axford in Milwaukee? I mean if you're saying you don't want him at all because of his control, then I'm guessing you're strongly against Axford being a late inning guy for us next year as he actually has no idea where the ball is going at times and his control is much-much worse. K-Rod's issue for a period of time was his command, not his control. By the way, K-Rod has 6 walks in the last two months, and his BB rate is nearly identical to what his career average has been. He also has an xFIP of 3.77. So I don't think your post reflects what he's done in the last couple months for us whatsoever. Axford by the way has walked more more than one hitter per inning than K-Rod.

As a note, the Brewers control Gallardo for 3 more years. They hold a $13 million option for 2015. That is just another part of what makes Gallardo so attractive as a trade option and at the same time, why it'd take such an extraordinarily bold move to actually pull the trigger on something like that. Just an aside, when do the Brewers look to add a couple years to that? Would it make any sense for the Brewers to eliminate the option year and add 3 years and 45 million to his current deal? Which would essentially be a two year 32 million dollar extension and thereby guaranteeing the option year since it's incredibly unlikely he's actually going to be traded? He's been remarkably consistent, and a deal like that would take him through his age 31 season? It's one of those situations that if he keeps pitching like he has, you're just going to end up paying a ton more for him in an extension, and with all the new money coming into the league, that could be a ridiculously below average value.

Of course that's always on top of your mind when talking about pitching prospects. But you're also assuming you're trading 3 all star years of Gallardo. There are also a whole lot of pitchers who've had great starts to their career and had that first injury that seemingly leads to several others. Remember Brandon Webb? Especially sad case as he was on the verge of signing a monster of a contract and was arguably the best pitcher in the NL for a 3 year stretch. Harden, Sheets as well as a host of others. Webb and Sheets in particular didn't have injury issues in their first several years either. But I don't think you can make a decision like this by looking back on the prospects that have failed. That's always implied. But it's rare that a future ace comes out of nowhere. They're almost always guys that are identified in the minors as elite arms. There are always guys like Santana, Webb, etc...but more often it's guys like Price, Moore, Peavy, Verlander and so on. Which is why I think the proposed or rumored trade of two of the three prospects is a smarter way to go than one of them and Upton. Then you have two chances of hitting on a guy, and if you hit on either guy and they hit their ceiling, you have an ace, and if you hit on both, which is entirely reasonable since they've progressed and dominated at the upper levels(far more than Petersen ever did, though I understand you could use a number of different examples). So my point is you can't be afraid to trade for elite prospects because of past failures of top prospects. In the end, any talk of a Gallardo trade likely starts and ends in message board land as I simply don't see the Brewers even seriously considering it, even for a Trevor Bauer and a Archie Bradley/Tyler Skaggs....which I'd vehemently disagree with.