HiAndTight

In all fairness, Hart had a very poor start. I believe when he initially came up he was hitting under .200 and then started recieving sporadic playing time and we had Lee and Geoff playing in front of him. Gamel they certainly handled poorly, but I think you can look at nearly every organization and question the playing time given to a top prospect. This isn't to say the Brewers are flawless, just that I don't think it's a trend just yet.

TooLiveBrew wrote: I think that's a real waste of MLB service time. I definitely don't want to see the Brewers go that route, and fortunately I think they won't (given Kottaras). Well, my opinion on catchers is a bit different than regular position players. There is a far more prevalent mental side of the game at catcher than another other position. That being the case, I don't think it's as bad for a catcher, even a top tier prospect(of which neither LuCroy or Salome would quite qualify as...I'm speaking about a top 20-30 overall prospect) to work his way in somewhat slowly behind a veteran. That's true, and I agree that this is a good 'problem' to have. I just think that since it'd be better -- on an individual basis -- to have Lucroy & Salome both getting a full workload at catcher at the AAA level, there's a good chance one of them gets traded. You're right to highlight the ways in which they could both get their work in, though. I guess rather than seem them be given the absolute ideal situation for each which would almost certainly require one getting deal, I'd rather compromise a bit and even perhaps sacrifice a little bit of their development to keep them both in our org.

Thank you LouisEly. It was a rather lengthy post and while I understand Crew's concerns and issues, it's obviously very easy to go back after the fact and debate about whom the Brewers could have signed, could have traded for. You can do that every year for the draft as well. "Well rather than draft(Fill in the blank) we could have drafted Pedro Alvarez in the 36th round. Hindsight is always 2020 and I think you're being way to critical of some of these moves. Questioning DM for tradeing for DLR in his first move because he was too much of a bust potential? Getting on him for not trading Hall at his peak value? The same for Hardy? Well obviously those are moves looking back we'd love to have made. Think about what we could have gotten for Capuano and Hall when Hall hit 35 and Cappy was a All-Star? But nobody would have wanted to move them and blow up the team. At the end of the day he signed the 2nd best pitcher on the FA market to a pretty affordable contract. Should he continue his late career boom, he could end up being a very nice addition, he signed Latroy Hawkings a late inning reliever with a fantastic arm. Both moves have a domino effect and make this team better for next year. Now grab Mulder and add anotherh low risk/high reward type signing*cough*Mr.*cough*Sheets, and you have the potential for a above average rotation, a very good bp and a playoff team.

Let it be known right out of the gate that I prefer Taylor Green to Brantley and view Green as our 3rd basemen of the future. I think he has a chance to be a prototypical #2 hitter for us. That said, we'd most definitely be in a better situation on the big league level this year if we still had Brantley. He'd very possibly be slated in as our CF'er next year and our #2 hitter behind Weeks if not our leadoff hitter.

The part that can get frustrating is that it's not like just one person will say something, several people will and in my case, I genuinely tried to respectfully disagree, but now you have several people admonishing you as Bruce did in one of his last posts for simply having the audacity to question something and the tone then becomes very defensive and far less conducive to a civilized conversation. I'll offer two quick thoughts. First coach is a individual who's been around for a very long time, around some of the greats and without a doubt has a great wealth of information to pass on to the board. We are very lucky to have him, and others who are "in the know" regarding different players and or teams. However despite his well established credentials, simply questioning him does not mean as Bruce suggested that new posters are just trying to pick a fight with him or whatever it was he insinuated. You can have a great deal of respect, and not be calling coach a "liar" simply because you question the sub 1.70 pop times and the second off 60 times. If you're not allowed to question anything for fear of being viewed as confrontational.

I don't agree with this line of thought at all. Why must we trade one of our catchers simply because we brought in a proven big league vet? I realize there is a lot of posturing going on with GM's, but it's also very realistic that the Brewers simply think high enough of Lucroy that they'd give him a shot at making the club out of ST'ing as a guy who plays 60 games and learns from Zaun. If the Brewers end up trading Lucroy or Salome for such a minor issue as not having enough PT for the two(a situation I think we can easily work out), I will be the disappointed one. How about Lucroy catching 60 games in the big leagues behind Zaun and Salome being the AAA catcher? Even if they're both in AAA it's not the end of the world and it may end up being a blessing. Have Angel and Lucroy work at 1st on days they're not catching. Whatever the lengthy list of alternatives may include, having two good MLB ready catchers does not need tobe solved by moving one just to move him.

Look at Brian Shouse, Mitch Stetter, Joe Biemel and countless others. While I'm not trying to minimize the difficulty of getting big league lefties out, the fact of the matter is, there are a number of guys available ever year who can do just that. There are fewer lefties who can get right handers out as well, but at the end of the day it's far, far easier to find those types of pitchers than to find potential front line legit #2 starting pitchers(or a #1 which is well within Braddock's grasp). I just think you have to keep a kid like Zach Braddock as a starter until he's proven he cannot do it. The same goes for the Mark Rogers of the world, the Peralta's, Heckathorn's, etc....etc...etc... So if we do bring Braddock up as a reliever this year, and I'd rather leave him in AA to develop, BUT if they do, I hope they at least plan on handling him like Santana and move him back after he's spent a year in the pen.

I suppose it's how you manage it, but I can agree with that statement in general. It can be especially bad if you're getting your young relievers up multiple times a game as it seems so many pitchers do. That's why I almost like a more regimented routine. If you have a Carlos Marmol, I understand he's the guy you bring in to put out the fires, but I don't like getting him up in the 6th if the starter walks a guy, sitting him back down, getting him up in the 7th....8th.... That will happen from time to time, but it shouldn't be something you do daily. Now if you have a kid like Braddock who you're almost going to use as a sorta MR/Long man and bring him in for 2-3 innings every 3 days or so, that might not be as tough on his arm. Either way though, as much as I love the kid, Im not even so sure he can hold up even if he's just a one inning a game reliever and throws 75 Innings. He hasn't really shown he can make it through a season in any fashion. I'll also add I never would have thought Parra would be able to pitch the innings he's pitched.

Actually, he thrived early on when they made him a starter. When he came up for us initially, then down the stretch a few years ago he posted very good numbers. Small sample sizes, but to say he's failed, completely failed simply isn't accurate.

I don't know, the Mariners are a team that with just one more impact bat I think could do some interesting things this year. I really like the idea of Figgins hitting leadoff and then Ichiro hitting 2nd or 3rd. Perhaps Branyan can put together another good season. It's just too bad for them they didn't hire Jack Z a little earlier. Could have had a 1-2-3 of Figgins, Ichiro and Adam Jones. Anyway, I've seen it suggested that speed actually ages better than other skills, so while that's counter intuitive, it would bode well for Figgins.

Yeah, obviously that was a mistake. Frankly though, and few will agree, but I think I'd place him behind Howell. I really, really like Gennett, Hall and Howell. Loved that we picked up guys who I believe are top 75 talents much further down, and guys who all have the ability to really contribute to this organization. Not just be Sept callups, but be mainstays. I'm very possibly overselling them, but we'll see So yeah, I guess I'd slot him 6th. Again, this is just a gut feeling, so I understand how some will think I'm just crazy. If he could possibly stay as a starter his value shoots through the roof IMO, but I don't believe he will.

Yeah, I understand how unlikely it is for a pitcher to come back, and I don't expect him to just for that reason, but I'm not going to hold it against him that he was throwing in the low 80's in Helena. That was more about just getting back out there and getting into it a little bit. And while pitchers often gain a tick or two shortly after TJ surgery, that, to my understanding is when they've strengthened their arm again and are pitching a little bit more. Cappy it seemed was taking it pretty easy just to get back into the swing. Regardless, I think he's the type of guy we're all rooting for.

I forgot about Butler. But asside from Butler and a few interesting bullpen guys, the AAA pitching staff is looking to be mainly AAAA players again. So it's not like these signings will be taking away innings from prospects. Yes, the point is there are far, far more spots available in AAA than there are viable pitching prospects to be blocked. Hopefully this becomes an issue in the coming years, even next year, but as of now...sadly.....no such concern.

I was absolutely thrilled with this draft in general. We hit on absolutely every aspect of what I thought we should have. We got pitchers who excelled in college and are big power arms in Arnett and Heckathorn, and we got prep pitchers with high upsides in Hall, and we got a college pitcher who struggled, but who has a big time arm and fell in Howell. WE got players with awesome tools everywhere from Walla, to Davis, to Richardson, to Garfield, and on and on. THIS is the type of draft that I believe the Brewers will look back upon in a few years and point to as a real turning point. Anyway, my top 10. 1-Arnett Just a pure power arm whom I thought would be gone by 15 at the latest. 2-Brooks Hall Really lucky to get him where we did in my opinion. If he can add 2-3 MPH, he becomes a truly elite arm. 3-Davis Was a projected top 10 pick coming into the Spring and we get him in the supplemental 1st round. Hitters who press and try and do it all often struggle. I am really excited to see him in action next year. 4- Scooter Gennett Another guy who was on many lists as an early round pick coming into the Spring. A couple poor showings in showcases and what not and he falls to the 16th round where we snap him up. I would like to see us try and leave him at short for a year or two and see what happens. 5- Del Howell Again, there is a theme here. I've long since wanted to see this organization spend money on talent later on in the draft. They of course did this and did it well with the Draft and Follow process, however the fact that we were willing to take some risks is encouraging for the future. 6- Josh Prince A shortstop who excels defensively, but who also walks at a fantastic rate and projects to add some power? Oh, and steals a ton of bags at a high rate? What's not to love. 7- Max Walla A prospect with off the meter type power. Not a great start to his pro-career, but so what? As a young prep bat, I'll comfort myself with the reports of his impressive BP displays until next year and hopefully more success. 8-Cameron Garfield Like Walla, very raw, a 5-5 game was a nice start to his pro-career, but even after that, he held his own for his age. Also very good reports regarding his defense. Perhaps our next good catching prospect. 9-Michael Fiers Yes, he doesn't have the "stuff" that others do, and while numbers are secondary at this stage, a 59/5 K to BB ratio is impressive. Our next loogy, and he could move fast. 10-D'Vontrey Richardson Probably should be higher based upon the immense praise heaped upon him in the instructional league, and the fact that he is a legit 5 tool athlete, and the fact that he has not yet dedicated himself to baseball. There are a few other guys I find very interesting. Halton and Stang would top that list, but I was very pleased with this draft. If the Brewers continue to spend aggressively in the draft, they will benefit from it a great deal in the long run. I have absolutely no doubt about that.

And I absolutely agree with that with regard to Escobar. I'm sure many of these debates have been hashed out already, I was just debating that point in general, not with regard to Escobar. I would think if you could get a line of .280/.330/.350 out of Escobar next year you'd have to be thrilled. Even that +50 is likely overly optomistic, but we'll see. I really do see him developing a lot more power as he fills out. He's got the frame for it, and I could see him with 12-15 HR power in 2-3 years.

I agree it's a bad decision, I also agree signing Wasburn and Davis to anything beyond 2 years and 8 million per(which is almost a certainty) is a bad idea. However I'm still confident that we're going to be able to acquire pitchers who can help us a great deal. I've advocated signing 2-3 of the injury type low risk/high reward type guys, and then perhaps one legit starter via trade or FA. If you can pick up either of the available Braves starters, Lowe or Vazquez and then Mulder and perhaps Sheets I think you're greatly improving your rotation. Of course virtually everyone is in agreement that while Washburn and Davis would help us, they'd be very poor signings. I'm also enamoured with the idea of Vincente Padilla....despite all logical conclusions regarding him, he looked just so damn electric in LA last year. My head says he'll revert back to the Rangers Padilla, but my small sample size guys says maybe he's a great buy this off-season. Seriously though, how can someone who can be THAT good pitch soo poorly most of the time? 95 on the black in and out.....anyway, I digress...

I suppose I'm making an assumption, just the Braves don't have unlimited funds and to pay 7 million for Wagner, and then what, at least that for Soriano would seem like spending a bit much on the back end of their pen. Of course if they did they could have a equally dynamic bullpen. Still they need some offense.

I don't think there is any scenario in which the Brewers simply non-tender Hart. He's still got plenty of value as a tradable asset to just non-tender him. More likely though I think you go into the season with Corey Hart as your RF'er and hope he has a bounce back year. It's been a tough go for Corey for the last season+(season plus a month) and it seemed as though just when he started hitting the ball well again last year is when he went under the knife. Anyway, most of the guys we have in the 10-20 range I value too much to give up for Pagan. Perhaps I'd be a poor GM because I'd never want to give up our porspects.

Again, I agree that is generally the case, however nobody's talking about just one or two examples. People like to discount the value in players such as Counsell and many others who hit for very little power yet are able to draw walks. You said no pitcher will walk a guy without power. While I realize you didn't literally mean "no pitcher", the fact is it isn't always that easy for pitchers to throw strikes, and there are many hitters out there who consistently draw walks without hitting for much power. Jason Kendall is another guy who did it throughout his career. Chone Figgins hits for very little power and yet carried an OBP near .400 this year(.393). It's a skill that is too often completely discounted and discredited as though it's all a matter of the pitcher. I don't believe that to be the case. However with regard to Escobar I agree. He doesn't profile as the type to foul off pitches, work the count and be a pain in the rear, and as such I agree that he will not raise his OBP to the standards of a leadoff hitter until he does start to show a little power.

To play devils advocate for a moment, they must feel that they're a legit world series contender and that he can really solidify the back end of that BP. Of course I can see why they would feel that way with Hudson, Hanson, Juir, Vazquez, Lowe, Kawakami in their rotation as of now. Still, Soriano would have been a better decision IMO.

One final thought on this subject. I keep hearing we didn't give up anything to get him. I disagree. We gave up a young OF'er who I liked an awful lot and who I think could be an average big league starter, or a very, very good 4th OF'er, and a young reliever who I think had considerable potential to help us out in the not too distant future. I wouldn't be surprised to see both Gillespie and Mercedes playing for the D-backs at some point in '10 and making contributions. All of this was mitigated by the fact that you could have hoped to get some value back from one of those picks....until this.

You can't be talking about Lopez, of the career .269 average and career OBP of .338 can you? Actually, I think he's talking about the guy who hit .320/.401 for us last year, .310/.383 overall last year and who for the last year and a half has been a great 2nd basemen. Guys develop late. It happens all the time. Lopez is starting to get to the point now where he's been really very good for about a season and a half. It's not unheard of for a 27/28 year old guy to finally bust out. Lopez is just 29 years old right now. I think he's proven he's not the player that posted those career lines. Now he hasn't "proven" he's the player who posted the aforementioned lines, but from watching him last year, his approach, his swing, suffice to say, he's a good ballplayer.

Hey, you could also say it's almost a certain that an NFL player won't headbut a concrete wall with an inch and a half of padding. Doesn't make YOU an idiot when you end up being wrong....... Seriously though, I just don't see why you don't do this. What, you think Lopez is going to get 12 million next year? If he is awarded 5.5 in arbitration, tell me you couldn't have traded that contract? What if he would have been a Type A FA as he very nearly was. Would Melvin have still declined? The good news? The Brewers should be looking at going after many more high, high ceiling guys who are falling, ala Del Howell and Scooter Gennett(as well as Brooks Hall). So perhaps we end up making up for the lost draft picks.

It blows my mind that he got 7 million. He was one of those, "why not" signings for me. Offer him 1.5 with 2 million in incentives if he hadn't signed by Jan. Frankly if I'm the Braves, I'm much more worried about bringing Soriano back....and while my market may have been well off, I'd have thought he could have been had for roughly the same.

Though you sorta have to feel that way, on this one I agree. It's too bad because a player like that NEEDS to move on perhaps, but I would still like him in our organization. Arms like that come around so rarely, and while he's soooo old now(what is he, 27 now....I say that tongue in cheek) the list of late bloomers is longer than the list of coaches championships. He's just a guy I've always had a feeling would eventually bust out. Then again, I had the same feeling about Sarfate, so maybe it's best if I lose all confidence in the guyhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif Anyway, a guy can learn how to pitch. He can't learn how to throw 98.