I'm not sure I'd qualify Pena as a non-prospect, he continually shows flashes of brilliance, though he may ultimately end up in the bullpen, or of course nothing like any prospect. However I've said this before but I like him more as a starting pitcher than I do Hellweg, I just don't see Hellweg starting in the big leagues with his rate stats and relative lack of control. There is still hope for Pena, I'm not sure exactly how much, but I'd much rather move Gagnon than Pena at this time. I feel similarly about Pena as I did Peralta, he's intriguing and a guy you just keep hoping will have a breakout season at the upper levels of the minors. He has a nice K rate and one can always hope that the BB rate falls to reasonable level, otherwise like Hellweg he's destined for relief if anything. I know you really dig into the minors TC07 and I guess I look at Pena and Hellweg in a similar way: electric fastball, very limited control. Neither of those guys are anything close to a sure thing and due to that, if the Mets were to make Ike available in a deal for one or the other I think it behooves the Crew to try to solve an issue at the MLB level with a prospect that is by no means a guarantee. If Thornburg, who I think most rate as an average MLB prospect, was an overpay to get Ike, don't Hellweg and Pena, with their own warts, represent fair value from the Brewers system for Ike?