UpandIn

It's slightly relevant because you MADE it slightly relevant when you said the "outlier" in the Brewers playoff run was last years 95 win team and then sited the 2020 team that went 29-31 while ignoring the previous two teams. If 3 out of 4 years a team wins 96, 89, and 95 games, then...surely the 29-31 team on the 60 game roster would be "outlier," would it not? Again...this is literally a point YOU were arguing. Now you're asking me how it's relevant.

Yes...just IMAGINE if the Brewers got a check each year that would cover the payroll through the Cohen tax? That's before the national TV money, and of course before attendance and any other sources of revenue. They have to pay into revenue sharing to MLB(though a fraction of what they're actually supposed to as the Dodgers were a bit underhanded in how they went about their latest TV deal)...but it's tax free. Give the Brewers another 250M dollars a year... The idea that Attanasio just bought this team to pad his pockets is an absolute farce(not that the argument has been made on here, but it's made plenty). They'd have signed Burnes, Woodruff, could have signed Cody Seager and still has 30M to play with and Attanasio would still pocket over 100M. I really think Attanasio is a fan who bought a team...and wants to win. He's also not "Sports Owner," rich. Even compared to the Bucks ownership group which has 3 owners who are worth billions. They can afford to spend near the top of the league for a period when they're contending. But that's not how it works in MLB...and while we've got more money coming in, it's not going to change in any substantive way. It's real simple. There are fewer of us. It's easier to be a Cubs fan...though frankly, I'd be pissed, because then the argument that ownership isn't putting resources into the team, it'd have FAR more merit. But Cubs, Yankees, Braves even, larger fan bases=more money. The Brewers DO have one of of the most loyal fan bases. They spend more per fan than any other team, the TV ratings are 4th in MLB, but that's still based on a percentage. Bottom line, if you think just "spending more," is the way out, then you're always going to be disappointed by ownership. They are at least putting their money back into the franchise. It just sucks they don't have more of it.

I suspect Ruiz is going to be traded this off-season and the Brewers don't want to expose him too much. Just a feeling based on the "other trades fell through," and then the fact that we do not lack for OFers. That's really got nothing to do with anything, just throwing that out there. Also hoping they can get Topa into a game tonight after putting a few crooked numbers up early. Sure be nice to get this double header and kick of our delayed start to Craigtember.

I suspect Ruiz is going to be traded this off-season and the Brewers don't want to expose him too much. Just a feeling based on the "other trades fell through," and then the fact that we do not lack for OFers. That's really got nothing to do with anything, just throwing that out there. Also hoping they can get Topa into a game tonight after putting a few crooked numbers up early. Sure be nice to get this double header and kick of our delayed start to Craigtember.

You apparently did; Your response; So yes...the last "few seasons," as in in the last 4, they've won 95 twice and 89 a 3rd and then had a Covid shortened season.

His comments about the Brewers seem pretty directly related to being DFA...and cutting off the discussion because it kinda vaguely goes sorta near politics, which...I don't think it actually did, is more a slippery slope than anything else.

Ok....well, whatever. Can I ask how exactly we're arriving at this arbitrary "top 4" offense? The year they were 1 win away from the World Series, they're top pitchers were Chacin and 16 starts from Wade Miley. Offense was 12th in runs scored that season. Offense is 9th in runs scored this season.

LaFleur kinda addressed this though. He simply pointed out that Z wasn't around as much. When you're not out there for camp...hard to be voted a leader. With a guy like Bahk or Rodgers, or a looong time vet, sure, things may be different, but a guy who's been there 2 years on an ascending defense? It was also tough to argue wit the three on defense. Jaire, Clark and Amos. All leaders, all among the best at their position. All just go about their business. Jaire with a little more flare, but, but still a team player...and you need that swagger at CB. NOW I think we're stretching. Everyone celebrates their sacks. The get a pick, they take a whole "Keeping up with the Kardashians," type scripted dance and then team picture. I loved Za'Darius on his two years here. He was a stud. He was especially good putting guards on their arse when kicking inside with those long arms and heavy hands(which...is kinda JJ Enagbare's profile). Now he seems like he doesn't understand the business side of the NFL and is making things very strange and personal.

He was complaining about not getting enough respect earlier in the year, not being named captain. I don't think he'd have been a cap casualty if he stayed healthy and performed again, but...Preston had a good year and Za'Darius didn't. Although...he was complaining about THAT as well before the season started. That the Packers restructuring his contract would mean he'd likely be cut or would have to restructure. Basically, both Smith's were in the same position with Za'Darius being the more valuable. Preston took a VERY team friendly deal. Za'Darius talked about wanting to stay here...and then also being upset by his future cap hit and...I don't know, it's hard to track what his thinking was. As for being worried about him, it comes down to two players. David Bahktiari and Elgton Jenkins. Throw them out there and you'll stop Smith. If you throw Royce Newman out at RT, he'll get some chances to hit Rodgers. I'm more worried about Hunter if he's healthy. This feels like one of those early season games the Packers could lose. Their offense is going to take a while to gel, not getting the feeling Jenkins can play(in fact, a little worried about that pec injury they're really not talking about). Watson doesn't seem like he'll be a real impact player early on. 20-14 type game would be my guess, either way. Hopefully we get our OTs back, but just one would be a big bonus.

And they won 96 and 89 games the prior two seasons and they're STILL on pace to win well over 81 games. So full seasons, 96, 89, 95... They'll need to WIN game to draw fans. Adding players average fans recognize is the worst possible way to build a team.

Riiight. Which is why I never compared the two. In fact...I compared Small to Rich Hill. I did the exact opposite. And I obviously prefer guys with more velocity. That doesn't mean a pitcher who throws 91-93(doesn't top out at 91, but that seems kinda beside the point) with 3 solid pitches won't be a valuable starter. I said I'd trade him for good value, but I wouldn't just give him away. I don't know how that got conflated with him being similar to Corbin Burnes. No...they've had some trips to the DL and have had to have lesser pitchers fill in. They've STILL got two legitimate aces, two legitimate #2-3 starters, Ashby who's very close to becoming an elite pitcher. And we'll likely have a couple pitchers who will exceed their 2021 counterparts. The most likely being the pitcher who is already on the precipice in Ashby. Maybe Gasser later in next year could. Do people forget this was a team on pace to win over 100 games before easing up at the end of the season despite having a terrible offense? This team isn't playing well. It's not a secret. It'd place Corbin Burnes, Brandon Woodruff, Freddy Peralta, Eric Lauer...VERY low down on the list of reasons why they aren't or won't next year...even if they didn't exactly replicate 2021s performance.

It's also significantly different in that the Brewers were in a rebuild at that time, AND there was no DH at that time. I also believe going into arbitration, Carter, who'd just led the league in HRs and hit 37 two years prior, would have gotten a disproportionate raise in arbitration. Also, just an aside, but Carter had a .822 OPS and an OPS+ of 113 while Tellez is .794 and has a 121 OPS+. Just another sign how much hitting is down across the league...and how this team can be above average offensively and still look so...hapless at times. Finally, I agree with you on Rowdy's personality. The Brewers seem to play better when they have guys who bring energy anda little attitude to the game. The Cards play well when they clutch their pearls, we play well when our players play loose. Rowdy seems like a no-brainer.

I think it's more than reasonable to expect them to return to dominance. Hell, they've been pretty dominant this year...there's just been a few hiccups with DL stints, I half agree with this. Ashby is SO close to dominating. His at his worse in 0-2 counts and on the first pitch of the AB. A guy with his stuff, I have trouble believing he's not going to be able to figure that out. He's young and developing, but his stuff is electric. With regard to Small, I have little doubt he's going to be a very solid, very effective inning eater who can be a #4/#5, MAYBE a #3. It's more of a matter of time with him. He's not overpowering so he nibbles and then gives in. But when HE'LL figure it out...who knows. Rich Hill was a good comp for him, right? I think that still holds true. It took him 3 years. Maybe Small will click next year, maybe not. I wouldn't give him away, but it's also not exactly like Burnes in 2019 where he was dominant and he just kinda lost it. I'd trade him if you could get good value for him. I don't think anyone in Baseball doesn't believe in the starting pitchers we have. I think it's even simpler than that. Do you believe that Adames can perform closer to how he did with the Brewers in '21 than '22, can Urias bounce back. Again, those two have had very unlucky BABIP. How much confidence do you have in Frelick, Mitchell, Turang...maybe Wiemer? Can they be more than just adequate replacement level players or do they actually believe there is a ROY candidate and some immediate impact players in there? It's not asking a lot to be able to upgrade over CF/2B from this past year. But I don't think the pitching staff is really a question(well, the rotation anyway). But even that "sorta all in," you're speaking of, it's not just about trading away the resources we've got or some of them...it's the players we're going to lose for nothing. I think the Brewers make Burnes and Woodruff available and if you can get a package from a team like the Dodgers for 2 pitchers like Miller, Stone and then a couple position players like Vargas and Busch...I think you take it and perhaps you attempt to extend Woodruff...unlikely as it may be. It's really a coin flip for me. This is a team that was a couple late inning HRs away from a World Series appearance when our ace was Chacin/Miley and we started Dan Jennings for an out and it's a team that looked like they were going to win 100+ games last year with...VERY poor offense until coasting to the finish line. What they do with Burnes and Woodruff could either set the Brewers up for the next decade or it could set us up for a short two year period and then a reset. I want to win, but I wouldn't want to make that call, but personally...I think I prefer the way TB and Cleveland have gone about their business, but what fan wants to punt with two TOR power arms and two years left?

Well...that's pretty heavily skewed by his last outing, 1 IP, 6 ERs. And the Texas league is a pretty tough pitchers league. He may or may not hit, and you can see when he loses it, he really loses it...though I don't think that's unique to Kelly when speaking of young pitchers...and this is his first full year. I DO get the rationale behind the trade and Bush has been good(particularly after the first two outings) there will be a 40 man crunch as it is. Now if we can get our **** together down the stretch and stop blowing 6-1 leads, I'll be much happier.

Sure...I also kinda include Ashby in there yet. He's got all the upside Woodruff and Burnes did(maybe not QUITE the Burnes upside, but a whole lot). That was a brilliant extension. There are others like Stiven Cruz who I've seen Joseph Zarr raving about and has sent me on little quests to find scouting reports and Trevor Hooth covers a lot of these prospects and gives some pretty nice reviews. A 20 year old just dominating in HiA and throwing in the low to mid 90s. We've seen enough pitchers go from 91-94 to 94-97 as they develop in this system...I feel pretty good about our pitching. Even if we trade a Burnes or Woodruff, I would assume on top of at least one premier position prospect(preferably a 3B) but we should also expect the front office to supplement that pitching. I DO hate losing a guy like Antoine Kelly, but I'll let the remains of that poor horse rest now!

This feels like a rhetorical question because...they're all in their primes. What makes you think they all had career years in the same season or that Ashby who can hit 99, has a nasty slider, why can't he become a #2 pitcher? Yeah, of COURSE they counted on their pitching when they had the reigning Cy Young, a guy who finished 5th and then Peralta, Lauer, Ashby, Houser, Williams, Hader, Small. How do you build a team with a limited payroll, arguably the best staff in baseball and not just try and put a top 10 offense out there and think you'll be competitive? Because it didn't work out perfectly or hasn't thus far, doesn't mean the logic was flawed. Then you factor in the guy who was effectively the back to back MVP if he doesn't hurt his knee and plays 3 more weeks and Keston Hiura are about a combined 350 points down on their OPS. I'm all for criticizing bad moves, but then tell me the moves that they SHOULD have made? I'm not a blind Stearns apologist...but you're just explaining what happened. How would YOU have prevented it? What's the obvious fix even with the benefit of hindsight, that you would have made?

Yeah, I didn't read that, but I feel like the Brewers issues are pretty obvious. Even Kolten Wong has said something like how he likes the freedom the Brewers give him with 2 strikes where he doesn't have to shorten up. The Brewers have REALLY tested the limits of "strikeouts don't matter." I mean...they don't if you're Aaron Judge or Prince Fielder or Ryan Braun, but they kinda do when you're a slap hitting 2nd Basemen or...3B or C or CF or LF or I guess pretty much every position on this team save for RF, SS and 1B and we're not setting records at those positions. But again, seems like the Brewers have figured this out and that's the impetus behind the Mitchell, Frelick, Black...maybe Turang(I just think he was a prospect who fell). Anyway, I don't think the front office is stupid, I think they're limited. They know the flaws on this team. If you're going to be a run prevention team, you have to manufacture runs once in a while. I don't think we're talking about trading Peralta(I also don't think he's the 3rd best pitcher or would get the 3rd most in return...). And I don't think any Brewers fan here WANTS to trade either player. But we're just going to have to. Either that or we pay them and the Brewers just do not have the money to pay probably one of them, but definitely not both. Even if Yelich wasn't on the books. If they were FAs, they'd conservatively get 75M a year. I think 40M for a guy like Burnes is going to be the going rate moving forward and 35 for Woodruff. The good news is, the Brewers are getting more money from TV deals. The bad news is, the local deal still comes in at a FRACTION of the large market teams and the National money is...National money. This is where I would like to once again thank Pete Rozelle and Wellington Mara for their contributions to the NFL and revenue sharing making it so the NFL wasn't a joke like MLB. But we are where we are. We can't keep guys like Burnes and Woodruff and let them walk for nothing. You have to keep turning those players into younger prospects. Hey, at least we haven't lost an ace sliding back into 1st Base in the last...couple years.

It does. I don't know why, but I just pictured a DP type situation. But I've got it now? I've only seen a few of his plays, but...enough to know he's got a CANNON. Saw the one play where he fields it behind 3B on the edge of the grass and throws it just barely in fair territory and just rifles it over to 1B. 3B is pretty thin across the league. There is a level of player that the Brewers will just simply never be able to afford in free agency. The Arenado, Devers 33-40M a year players. But after that top group, there is a massive drop off and Jace Peterson will very possibly(likely) be the best player available in free agency outside maybe Brandon Drury who in 7 years prior to this year had a -.35 WAR total. Point being...probably worth keeping a 3B who's hitting for power, playing D and is doing it one level away from Milwaukee.

And you can never assume a double play, right?

I do...I was a very big fan and thought he had a real chance to stick at C. Had a big year in Wisconsin at LowA, but never really took off. Seems like Brevard County REALLY knocked down a lot of prospects. A lot of guys never made it past HiA ball in Brevard County. Edit-Brevard County...obviously, not Wisconsin. The terrible hitters park.

.288/.355/.504 .859 OPS road OPS for his career. So I believe a lot of his poor performance prior to this year was just trouble hitting at the Trop. As for this year, I think part of it has been unlucky this year. He's got a .262 BABIP this year, .331 last year, .388 two years ago...that's a big difference. Some of it is just his walk rate is down. But he's still hitting the ball hard, good exit velocity. wOBA of .323. That's a massive difference from .292. I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a ~.260/.335/.465 .800 OPS, plus defender at Short.... Eh...I'm not sure. If they signed Adames right now, I'd expect a 5/70 with maybe a couple options at 16M or so. If he has a bounce back year next year, that number could sky rocket. If he were to put up a season like he did after the trade, he's a 25M a year SS. If we sign him and he doesn't rebound, then it's a terrible signing and we have two "albatross" contracts. It's not hard to see how difficult it'd be to make these calls as a small market team with a limited payroll. That, and we've got Turang and Black coming up, both who look like they're a pretty good keystone combo and I don't know if you should extend him or not. I probably would if that 5/70+option years is realistic, but even that may be underselling what a SS who's put up WAR of 3.9, 1.9 in 2020, 4.2 and 3 WAR in a down year so far this year is really worth. You're not paying Woodruff(most likely) or Burnes(even less likely). I wouldn't pay Williams. Not paying Renfroe as he'd be 33 the first year of an extension as he's locked up next year. I do think the payroll will be going up to the ~150 range in the next couple years...but I think everyone's got more money to spend and we'll still lag just as far(if not further) behind the top teams. Signing guys like Frelick or Chourio in a couple years is always the best way to go. Even those deals come with risk, but it's minimal in comparison to a Yelich type contract.

I stated a fact. An objective fact. Brewers, 10th in OPS, 9th in runs. Top 1/3rd in the league. Unless I missed it, show me where I stated they were "good." It is incredibly easy to change what someone else ACTUALLY said, replace it with a point that's easier to argue against and then argue against that. So AGAIN, are they NOT 9th in runs scored and 10th in OPS? -You're fixated on McCutchen and you've really got no other reasonable response as to what they should have done other than pointing you are in fact, NOT a GM(I was not under the impression you were for the record). Who HAS said he was some great signing? Again, easier to kinda assign a position to someone and then argue against that. I didn't say he was. I asked who they SHOULD have signed and got nothing. I even provided for the benefit of hindsight.

Ok, so you don't know, but just..."someone." They DID trade JBJ and a couple prospects for Hunter Renfroe who's putting up a pretty nice season, but, but I guess we ignore that because he's not having a bad year and still cling to the claim that McCutchen was "the big move." But you kinda got me. I can't really argue with the, 'I don't know who just anyone,' type of logic when talking about who they could or should have acquired. And we do kinda know who was available based on who was traded. But...whatever, go off. This is just tiring. Offense isn't even really the problem. We're top 10 in OPS, in Runs. Adames is a fraction not hitting anything close to what he was last year. Yelich was signed when he was an MVP and there was absolutely no reason to expect him to continue to struggle. Hiura went from top prospect, ROY contender to Russel Branyan basically(though IIRC, he could play a little defense). It really ain't that complicated. For a team like the Brewers to win a World Series, you need a good GM(we kinda got one despite your claims he's not going to care about the future with one foot out the door despite all evidence to the contrary) and you need luck. That includes players having big years...not two of our best hitters to have BABIP's in the .240-260 range. Not arguably the best defensive 2B in the game to just meltdown for a big chunk of the year and become one of the worst defenders. Not Peralta, Ashby, Houser and Woodruff to all go on the IR... And I'd keep going here, but you really seem to think that just signing NOT McCutchen would have magically cured ALL that ails the Brewers...which is a conversation I'd entertain...if you at least suggested WHO that someone should be.

Ingles is expected back around December...January at the latest. He is about the perfect fit for this team...provided he's healthy(which again, he says December, but say December/Jan). But his defense...SOMEHOW has been really good. His playmaking is kinda Toni Kukoc-esque and he's a Kyle Korver type 3 point shooter. I wanted to see TJ Warren, but I think he's an even bigger risk. Victor Oladipo, obviously would have been a good get. But what were the Bucks really missing when Middleton went down? A playmaker and a shooter. He is a sniper and was the heart and soul of that Jazz team. Bringing him, Jevon Carter, Wes Matthews, obviously rewarding Portis, Connaughton taking a pay-cut. With the cap shooting up, those two deals look even better. Maybe a Middleton extension, ideally at ~30M a year would be nice, but....I suspect it'll have to be more than that just like last time. But about as good of an off-season as the Bucks could have had. They COULD have signed TJ Warren for the minimum like the Nets did and then somehow swung a deal for George Hill and Grayson Allen, but without the picks to attach, it was the worst possible time to trade them. Allen just melted down and Hill looked like a shell of himself. Playing Carter over Hill may well have been the difference in the Celtics series(probably not, but the respective +/- was SO stark, not sure what Bud was doing there. Bucks stay healthy(and get healthy) and they're a better team this year than last year. Carter will put a lot less pressure on Holliday as he can defend 94 feet at an elite level and he can catch and shoot. Beauchamp...well, I don't think he'll be much of a shooter, but a nice wing defender who can give us 20 MPG, at least until we get Ingles and help the defense significantly. Love the moves they made. Now hopefully in-season they can find a way to upgrade the SG position.

I mean...he crushes LHP'ing. So he has value in that he can play with Mitchell, Frelick, Turang...and what should be a better offense next year. What you do with him depends entirely on what you decide to do with the two aces. If you keep them, you probably keep him as I just don't think you're getting offered a big prospect for him. But if you are...take it. Roll the dice with Will Myers if he's cheap enough or Mitch Haniger for a year. Both coming off down years, both RHed to fit with the lefties coming up. It's not hard to envision this team taking a step forward next year. Adames/Urias have abnormally low BABIP, Yelich is just what he is, a good OBP guy, we should have 3 rookies up who can help us, Renfroe, Rowdy and with Burnes, Woody, Peralta, Lauer, Houser, Ashby, Small, Gasser and a whole bunch of the aforementioned prospects, it may not help THIS crew, but he could help next years...if they decide to run it back and maybe supplement the roster a bit.