BrewerFan

"Years." This pre-season... but sure years. That's what he throws out of the pen, not as a starter and he was doing that THIS pre-season. So no, not "years." He's also a starter so if you DO want an apples to apples, his velo is exactly in line with the starters the Yankees traded. Didn't say Kuehner "sat" 97-99, but that he can throw 97-99 out of the pen. And Wagoner ok. He's "close" to one, but not one. Also, the Nats said they wanted POWER ARMS. Wagoner, Jake Bird throws 94-96 Cebert is 92-95 Grable is 93-96 THOSE are "flamethrowers?" There's ONE power arm in that group... is Cruz and he's on his 4th organization in 4 years(while being healthy) and Wagoner has been much better as a power arm in AAA this year than Cruz. I get we all love front office and arguing we couldn't match this trade, but we... we sooo easily could have... if we wanted to.

This is just... insane. I don't know if ANYONE hates this trade more than me(and I quite literally said in the Soriano thread Frias is EXACTLY the type of prospect I would NOT trade)... and I'm pretty effusive in my praise of the front office. I don't know how long you've been on this board, but no, it's about 95% positive, 5% negative... irrespective of the deal such as this one that was obviously a massive overpay.

Sure. I mean, then the Yankees didn't trade any "flamethrowers." If Wagoner throwing 101 shortly after coming back from that TJ and then the complications isn't a flamethrower... I don't know what is. Wichrowski was touching 100 and Kuhener as a lefty throws 97-99 when healthy. But... I'm not going to this pedantic thing again. The Yankees traded four low upside middling pitchers. If it's your argument they couldn't have matched that... fine. If it's your argument Wagoner isn't a flamethrower... sure.

The Peralta trade looks better in hindsight if anything. You're conflating the Peralta trade and getting back an arm like Sproat... who I don't care what he's doing the first half of his first year, he's got TOR stuff... for the Brewers getting desperate and giving up Frias. I don't know why I have to pick Frias/Ragsdale or Jett/Sproat. I'd pick a better, more proactive trade and we keep Frias if I had the authority and then we get Sproat and Jett. I also do think May, especially with the Brewers very likely prevailing upon him that his sinker is a more effective pitch, that he'll be throwing that more and induce more Groundball. We got plenty back for Peralta. That's a separate issue from giving up too much for May(and Romero).

Yoho was traded like 2 days earlier. There's zero chance if they were interested, they hadn't checked in on what the Nats wanted for him. But fine, make it Heuer. He belongs in this group of arms anyway. But so... Wagoner is not good enough and Hardin is too good... Whatever, the point is, the Brewers had the arms, the Yankees traded volume, not quality. If the Brewers wanted him, they could have got him for a comparable package. Though he would mostly be stepping into Bauers role, so I don't think it makes much sense... but they certainly had the pieces to do it. And are you saying Wichrowski and Kuehner moved the needle or don't? I'm guessing you're saying they don't move the needle, but you said they wanted upper level guys who were close to MLB who were flamethrowers. That's both of them, Wagoner. Because... it wasn't that big of a needle. One of the pitchers was a 30-year-old with a 6 ERA and mediocre stuff. The best guy they got back is the Nats 25th ranked prospect. Saying one guy is better and one is worse(and I completely disagree, Wagoner was exactly the type of BP arm they were looking for)... is really just saying the package would have been... different which is a given.

I think this is a good move. I also think he could come back and be an exceptional reliever. Someone who can go 2-3 innings in the post-season.. IF he can figure it out a bit. Yesterday, the two soft singles, then... a walk. You can't do that. Then he gives in and there are 3 runs.

So... in other words, THAT many people have told you how ridiculous it is what Made is going at 19 in AA and yet you're still like, 'meh, he's good, but nothing special.'

Made could be a... Acuna Jr at SS type prospect. Pena looks like a really-really good player, a .300/.380/.450 type guy who hits 15 HRs and steals 50 bags at 2B. Could they be busts? Yeah... obviously. Pena much more likely than Made at this point. The value Made has is very likely greater than any prospect the Brewers have ever had... so you'd need to get a player who matches that. There aren't many who are signed for whatever a 2027 season we have and then two more years over him. I do understand the logic of trading the guy who has the higher value if you think they're comparable in terms of talent. I think we'll be very happy we didn't trade Made or Pena in a couple years. I just hope another team in our division doesn't have a top 10 prospect the next few years... one they got for very little.

They sent out volume over quality. Wagoner, Yoho and Hardin would have blown away the Yankees offer. Wichrowski, Kuehner... I mean, if they really wanted him, Letson or Knoth(wouldn't have been nearly as ridiculous as Frias).

I've said most of this year it looks like Burnes in 2019. Everything is there, he's got all the stuff, he's just not attacking and then gets behind, has to throw a strike and throws is right over the middle.

There isn't one. Dallas and teams like the Giants, 49ers... I mean, we all know which cities, but they'd dominate the game and the NFL would probably be worse. Just think if a team could sign every player they wanted. The Rams... who certainly look scary enough, they'd probably be spending 300-400M more than the Brewers(if not more) and guys like Myles Garrett, they wouldn't sign extensions or restructure so often because if they hit FA without the danger of the franchise tag. I'm just thinking, but a OL with Tristan Wirfs and then Trent Williams, Creed Humphrey and I don't care enough to keep going and listing two OGs, but basically the 90s Cowboys.

This is still.... AWFUL. You just can't trade these types of players UNLESS you're getting a Yordan Alvarez for 3 playoff runs back. That's the type of trade you include him in. And seconds before I even heard about this trade, I said it on another thread, the ONE type of prospect I'm not trading... is a talented young player with a massive upside. That's what Frias is. I'm also just qualifying the "trade him for that" package for all the "but we have 2 OFers." We have Chourio and Lara is going to be paid like a very good 4th OFer, so... I'm thinking if he came in next year and took the step that was expected of him RIGHT as he's turning 19... the Brewers probably could have found a spot for him. But hey, we're trying to not bel like the Dodgers. We didn't think it was fair we got all the young LA phenoms. Chourio, Made, Pena, how many do we really need... I mean, all of them? It's a bit much. So we thought... expiring pitcher. In the division... to the team that REALLY broke our hearts all those years.

Ok, Logan Henderson and Coleman Crow. I'd take River Ryan over Henderson.

Ya know... it'll PROBABLY be nothing. Just like John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander was PROBABLY going to be nothing. Just like Fernando Tatis Jr for James Shields was PROBABLY going to be nothing. Yordan Alvarez for JoshFields Ryne Sandberg Pete Crow-Armstrong ... this is the type of trade that'd transfer that "devil magic."

It absolutely connects. There's nobody who genuinely believes it doesn't connect. There's not a person on here today who knows a thing about the Brewers prospect who would have said, "Ragsdale and that 18-year-old with the 117 exit velo's who's 6'2 and still filling out and on a similar trajectory as Chourio, give STL THOSE two players(or ALL players) for a nice solid starter and an injured reliever. Not a person would have been doing the 'well maybe team A valued Johnny at this level but Team B Valued him a this level so I guess we can't be sure.' It's annoying we made this trade. It was out of character and it was obviously the Brewers panicking... it's SOOO much more annoying to see the intellectual dishonesty and see how dumb people can play about this. Finally, I'm not sure what the hell "I promise you, MOST big-league GMs are very fluent in uncertainty and very aware that the error bars around prospect evaluations are massive." You're promising ME that "Most" GMs(big league ones) are fluent in uncertainty. Do you know which ones are NOT fluent? Also, since this an appeal to an authority, but mostly in a "well if they did it, then they know," type of appeal to authority, do you care to share with me what unique insight you have into the mindset of GMs and can you also tell me which are NOT fluent in uncertainty.

Louis... c'mon. Are you seriously not only using one stat like complete games to put pitchers in one group and then saying if you're complaining about the cost... well, we could have just not done anything and then people would also be complaining. So you think it was either do nothing OR we HAD to give up Frias for a rental and an injured reliever?

It's the only way I can think of Matt Arnold right now...

You just asked a rhetorical question and then answered it...

Ok, so if the Brewers do it, it's right because... they're the Brewers and they're on the inside and know these players. That's... that's the argument here? Also, please do explain how it's "high and mighty" with the "value based thinking," because you think you gave up a premium prospect, an 18-year-old in full season ball for a rental and an injured reliever? Of courser that line of thinking is dumb though. It's just objectively dumb. If YOUR argument is they traded Ragsdale or Frias because... welp, they already paid Lara 31M so.... it doesn't matter what you trade Frias for! This type of thinking would have applied to Jackson Chourio when we had Frlick, Black, Wiemer and Mitchell all in the top 100 and a young prospect in Jackson Chourio who you could have traded for any marginal improvement because it's "high and mighty" to try and get VALUE for a prospect and it's "dumb" to trade prospects for pennies on the dollar... and to a division rival because you have other players at that position in the big leagues. Of course the fact that you have other players at the position has nothing to do with with it, the fact that you traded him for pennies on the dollar is the more relevant issue here. The Cubs got Gausman for two prospects, neither were even CLOSE to Frias and we added Ragsdale. But that doesn't matter because... talking about value, again... "high and mighty." Can you explain how? Now, how high and mighty am I being where I say "I didn't want to trade Made for Skubal?" Is that the highest and mightiest?

And the 18-year-old in Wilson was a part of that?

See Gausman, Kevin. Or... ya know, MOST of the pitchers traded. That's how.

Top 100 on Baseball America, but care to explain what an "armchair evaluator" is? That's generally where scouts watch tape OR players play. From... an armchair.

There were dozens of examples I wanted to use... but the worst part of this is how we found yet ANOTHER gem and he was performing exceptionally well for 18... And if you trade him in the offseason or when you're NOT rushed, you probably get fair market value. If you keep him 2-3 years, who knows, maybe HE becomes your 3rd OF... given the big cannon he has for an arm and talent he has. Also, YES, this Front Office is GREAT. My wife's also beautiful. If she's got stomach poisoning and craps down her leg, I'm not going to pretend she didn't because she's been great in the past and is otherwise great. I'm going to say..."that's disgusting... why would you do that(if you could help it) and I REALLY wish you would not have hit that cashmere rug." I don't have a Cashmere rug, but I want to articulate the scope of his bad they shat themselves here.

Ok, I hate this trade as much as the Trojan's hated Helen after she told the Prince to accept that gift horse and not look in it's mouth(that's just basic history)... BUT... May is not a below average starter. He's an extremely talented started who... I would VAGUELY understand if he were under team control, but he's not below average. It's either a Gm2 or Gm3 starter.

Great. You made a TOTALLY different argument than I made. Frias is not on Baseball America's top 100, EASILY the best and more comprehensive list... because he's "the shiny new thing." It's because at 17/18, the 6'2 left hander was putting up exit Velo's in the 115+ range. And I don't care that he's further away. Dusin May is NOT further away from Free Agency. I'd have MUCH rather given up... Tyler Black. So proximity has nothing to do with it, though... you're making both arguments here. 1-There are guys on top 100 lists who shouldn't have been. ok... why shouldn't they have been? Because they end up being a bust? Or because they were NEVER deserving? If you want to say the prior, no kidding. If you want to say the later, I don't agree(particularly with BA). 2-The bottom line, THEY GROSSLY overpaid. It's just that simple.