Article: The Five Best First Basemen In Brewers History

[sveumrules]

2 minutes ago, MadScientist said:

This is why I don't trust dWAR at all.  Baseball-reference has him listed at -1.1 on a year he won the golden glove.

dWAR includes positional adjustment, -9 runs for Coop in 1979. Even the best fielding 1B often end up with negative dWAR due to that positional adjustment.

From 1977-82 Total Zone credits Coop with +18 runs with the glove, but his fielding fell off just like his bat at the end of his career with -10 runs from 1983-87.

[Robocaller]

Some of you are denigrating Cooper's career stats, and that's either unfair or ignorant. He was the only one (of the contenders) who stayed with the team well past his prime. If you look at 4-6 year peak, he should be considered the clear winner.

 

[Jim French Stepstool]

9 hours ago, Robocaller said:

Some of you are denigrating Cooper's career stats, and that's either unfair or ignorant. He was the only one (of the contenders) who stayed with the team well past his prime. If you look at 4-6 year peak, he should be considered the clear winner.

 

That's a significant point. Sexson, Fielder & Scott all had their numbers shrink in the last 2-3 seasons, but none of them were in Milwaukee. Out of sight, out of mind. Coopers' fade came when still a member of the Brewers, which I don't think is something he should lose points for.

[StearnsFTW]

19 hours ago, sveumrules said:

dWAR includes positional adjustment so both are dragged down by playing 1B. Cooper played more innings so he gets a -88 positional adjustment versus only a -54 for Prince.

Looking at their actual glove work, Cooper graded out at +8 fielding runs with Milwaukee, Fielder graded out at -76 fielding runs.

Thanks.   As someone who watched both there was no way that info was accurate.   Now I know why.

 

Cooper is clearly #1.

[sveumrules]

28 minutes ago, StearnsFTW said:

Thanks.   As someone who watched both there was no way that info was accurate.   Now I know why.

 

Cooper is clearly #1.

Yeah, even Keith Hernandez with +117 Total Zone Runs (most ever for a 1B) only has a 1.3 career dWAR because playing over 17,000 innings at 1B has a -103 positional adjustment.

You pretty much have to be putting up +10 fielding runs annually as a 1B to break even in dWAR.

Same thing applies to a lesser extent to LF/RF which also have sizeable negative positional adjustments.

[Outlander]

Fielder and Cooper should be clear 1/2, a debate could certainly be made between the 2.

I remember being in grade school when Brock played and everybody thought he stunk, certainly not great statistical analysis but I have never heard or seen anybody consider him to be very good. He fell 42 plate appearances short of being in the Brewers Wall of Honor, only Tommy Harper was closer without qualifying.

[MadScientist]

16 hours ago, sveumrules said:

dWAR includes positional adjustment, -9 runs for Coop in 1979. Even the best fielding 1B often end up with negative dWAR due to that positional adjustment.

From 1977-82 Total Zone credits Coop with +18 runs with the glove, but his fielding fell off just like his bat at the end of his career with -10 runs from 1983-87.

The extreme positional adjustment is what makes their defensive WAR calculations dubious at best.  If anything, it should be a multiplying factor, not an addition/subtraction so that bad defense at premium positions is not treated as a positive, and great defense at a less valuable position is still seen as a positive.

Also for first base, do the calculations take in to account the throwing errors saved from other infield positions?  Cooper was an absolute master at that. 

[JimH5]

I would put Cooper comfortably at the top of the list.

Then I put George Scott 2nd.  Twice lead the league in TB, 5 Gold Gloves and his 1973 season was among the best years for a position player in franchise history.

Prince is a close 3rd.

Then Sexson...

And Jaha in the 5th spot.