2023 NFL Discussion Thread

[HarryDoyle]

WOW! Moody missed it! Possibly his first miss ever.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Samuel and McCaffrey both lost to injury today, suddenly Purdy looks like a 7th round draft pick losing against a good defense and after hearing all week about how the roster has no holes because they thumped an overrated cowboys team.

Such is the NFL...

[HarryDoyle]

Love the retro Creamsicle unis of the Bucs!

[HarryDoyle]

The Jets beat the Eagles??? Weren't they supposed to suck without Rodgers? I wanted that high second.

[BrewerFan]

12 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Samuel and McCaffrey both lost to injury today, suddenly Purdy looks like a 7th round draft pick losing against a good defense and after hearing all week about how the roster has no holes because they thumped an overrated cowboys team.

Such is the NFL...

Yeah, a lot of people starting whining because I said I didn't know if Purdy was that good or if SF was just that loaded and that a lot of QBs would be excelling with that OL, RBs, TEs, WRers and play calling.

And...I'm not saying I was proven right or that you're right...but I know it's WAY too early to say he's Joe Montana(which has been a very real and common comparison).  

[HarryDoyle]

The Lions are looking like the Lions we've known and loved the past 30+ years.

[homer]

11 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

The Lions are looking like the Lions we've known and loved the past 30+ years.

they are getting steamrolled

[HarryDoyle]

2 minutes ago, homer said:

they are getting steamrolled

Fox is going to switch to a more competitive game before halftime.

[yourout]

57 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

The Lions are looking like the Lions we've known and loved the past 30+ years.

NFC North is the B10 West of the NFL.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, homer said:

they are getting steamrolled

It's their turn to be the weekly nfc darling that gets smacked around a bit.

[HarryDoyle]

How did we ever lose to the Raiders?

[yourout]

46 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

How did we ever lose to the Raiders?

Do you really need to ask?

[BrewerFan]

13 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

How did we ever lose to the Raiders?

Rasheed Walker(who's convinced people he's good instead of just...NOT a terrible backup), Josh Myers...who nobody is convinced is good, Zach Tom who's probably best suited to start at C playing RT and getting bull rushed into Love's lap.

The Hamstrings on the Packers are apparently as tightly wound as a vegan Karen, so they're just snapping left and right.

Uh...we don't allow anyone to take toradol which makes your knee, shoulder, whatever...feel good for about 3-4 hours and we're apparently the only team that doesn't do these(probably in the NFL or College).

Jordan Love MIGHT suck...I don't know because he makes these absurd throws at times and then he misses Musgraves by 8 yards despite dude being 6'6 and then he throws a ball like he's in that movie where they "Bend the bullet" around pass rushing DL. I still don't know if he's good. I know he won't be really good as long as these WRer/TEs keep getting hurt AND he has no OL, but even in his good games, he has struggled to show up until the 2nd half.

 

Oh, and.....Barry, Joe(I don't need to expand here, do I?)

[Travisb72]

3 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Rasheed Walker(who's convinced people he's good instead of just...NOT a terrible backup), Josh Myers...who nobody is convinced is good, Zach Tom who's probably best suited to start at C playing RT and getting bull rushed into Love's lap.

The Hamstrings on the Packers are apparently as tightly wound as a vegan Karen, so they're just snapping left and right.

Uh...we don't allow anyone to take toradol which makes your knee, shoulder, whatever...feel good for about 3-4 hours and we're apparently the only team that doesn't do these(probably in the NFL or College).

Jordan Love MIGHT suck...I don't know because he makes these absurd throws at times and then he misses Musgraves by 8 yards despite dude being 6'6 and then he throws a ball like he's in that movie where they "Bend the bullet" around pass rushing DL. I still don't know if he's good. I know he won't be really good as long as these WRer/TEs keep getting hurt AND he has no OL, but even in his good games, he has struggled to show up until the 2nd half.

 

Oh, and.....Barry, Joe(I don't need to expand here, do I?)

Why are people giving Runyan Jr a pass. He’s been bad also. Packers right now have two decent olinemen-Tom and Jenkins. That’s only 2 out of 5 oline positions covered. 2 out of 5 is good in baseball, but horrible for when i comes to the oline.

[LouisEly]

18 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

How did we ever lose to the Raiders?

Garoppolo isn't an all-pro, but there is a big dropoff from Garoppolo to Brian Hoyer.

That, and for some reason Josh Jacobs only got 11 carries yesterday. 

[HarryDoyle]

5 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Garoppolo isn't an all-pro, but there is a big dropoff from Garoppolo to Brian Hoyer.

That, and for some reason Josh Jacobs only got 11 carries yesterday. 

I understand that Brian Hoyer isn't any good and hasn’t won a game in 7 years, but the Bears started a quarterback whose last start was a blowout loss to Colorado School of Mines and he smoked the Raiders.

[nate82]

7 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

I understand that Brian Hoyer isn't any good and hasn’t won a game in 7 years, but the Bears started a quarterback whose last start was a blowout loss to Colorado School of Mines and he smoked the Raiders.

The Bears backup QB is a really good backup QB.  He may not have the physical talent to be a starter but he is adequate as a backup QB.  He will probably have a long career as a backup QB and is probably smart enough to be a QB coach or HC down the line.

[homer]

 

 

[BrewerFan]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:22 AM, Travisb72 said:

Why are people giving Runyan Jr a pass. He’s been bad also. Packers right now have two decent olinemen-Tom and Jenkins. That’s only 2 out of 5 oline positions covered. 2 out of 5 is good in baseball, but horrible for when i comes to the oline.

Read further back. "Everyone" is most definitely NOT giving JRJ a pass.

Yes, we have two competent OL in Tom and Jenkins. I think Walker's going to be fine, but not at LT, he's more suited for G.

I'm sure I've started to annoy people I've said we need to use our top 3 picks on the OL(though maybe just 2 if we keep losing).

1st-Whatever it takes to get Alt or Fashanu. That might take a 2nd to move up....and they're both elite OTs.
2nd-Another OT like Mims or Morgan depending on what the board looks like and move Tom to Center. But after the top ~10 the mock drafts are wildly inconsistent. 

If JRJ is the worst OL we've got, we're fine.

The priority is getting one of the two LTs. If we can get one of the two just straight up with our 1st rd pick, then take both our 2nds and move back to ~20 and get the next BPA on the OL. 

 

But Runyan is definitely not given a pass, he's just not the biggest problem. LT and C are clearly bigger issues.  Runyan at least doesn't blow his blocking assignments. 

[CheezWizHed]

12 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Read further back. "Everyone" is most definitely NOT giving JRJ a pass.

Yes, we have two competent OL in Tom and Jenkins. I think Walker's going to be fine, but not at LT, he's more suited for G.

I'm sure I've started to annoy people I've said we need to use our top 3 picks on the OL(though maybe just 2 if we keep losing).

1st-Whatever it takes to get Alt or Fashanu. That might take a 2nd to move up....and they're both elite OTs.
2nd-Another OT like Mims or Morgan depending on what the board looks like and move Tom to Center. But after the top ~10 the mock drafts are wildly inconsistent. 

If JRJ is the worst OL we've got, we're fine.

The priority is getting one of the two LTs. If we can get one of the two just straight up with our 1st rd pick, then take both our 2nds and move back to ~20 and get the next BPA on the OL. 

 

But Runyan is definitely not given a pass, he's just not the biggest problem. LT and C are clearly bigger issues.  Runyan at least doesn't blow his blocking assignments. 

Going back to the pre-season, I highlighted both Myers and JRJ as our weak-links.  PFF grades from last year bear that out also.  He has been "ok" this year, but not our worst spots (I've not seen the PFF grades recently).  Jenkins has actually been uncharacteristically poor too.  Perhaps his knee is hindering him still, but even before the injury he was penalty prone.

I still think Tom at C and Myers at G fixes two spots.  I'm willing to see how Walker progresses on the year.  He was a 7th round project last year... a huge surprise to jump over Tom and Nijman to play LT.  Give him some time to acclimate to the speed and adjust.  Many people (including me) thought Bahk should move inside after his rookie year at LT too. 

But regardless, having a 1st round tackle and a 4th round G/T draft wouldn't be a bad way to go unless we are close enough to draft a top QB. 

[BrewerFan]

11 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Going back to the pre-season, I highlighted both Myers and JRJ as our weak-links.  PFF grades from last year bear that out also.  He has been "ok" this year, but not our worst spots (I've not seen the PFF grades recently).  Jenkins has actually been uncharacteristically poor too.  Perhaps his knee is hindering him still, but even before the injury he was penalty prone.

I still think Tom at C and Myers at G fixes two spots.  I'm willing to see how Walker progresses on the year.  He was a 7th round project last year... a huge surprise to jump over Tom and Nijman to play LT.  Give him some time to acclimate to the speed and adjust.  Many people (including me) thought Bahk should move inside after his rookie year at LT too. 

But regardless, having a 1st round tackle and a 4th round G/T draft wouldn't be a bad way to go unless we are close enough to draft a top QB. 

Yeah, we talked about this a lot. I was hoping to see a OT drafted this past year, but understood this wasn't a great class and when Johnson went 6th overall, it became a long shot. I liked Wright...I like him even more now, I think Chicago hit there, but I wasn't sold at the time on a guy who's a RT only(I would guess he could play LT, but he's clearly more suited to RT). Broderick Jones is looking good, but this class is to OT what the '83 class was to QBs. 

I wouldn't "just" spend a 1st and a 4th on the OL. Ideally, I'd take Alt or Fashanu, both guys who are plug and play type players who could be PB and in Fashanu's case, an AP very early on in his career. And both fit this outside zone scheme perfectly. 

But you've also got guys like Mims, Fuaga, Latham, Barton(who's more versatile and probably more like a Tom type who can play all 5 spots)...you can go down and list 8 or 9 guys before you get to Jordan Morgan, a guy projected to be a 1st rounder last year before a torn ACL. 

So either take those 2nds, move back into the 1st around ~20 and get a guy like Mims, a big, monster who's agile and can move to play RT or see who's there in the 2nd. Morgan(and Barton) is the prototypical Packers type OL...the only problem with that, when you're not getting the premier talent, they're usually going to be much better in one aspect of the game and lacking in the other. We've prioritized pass blocking for obvious reasons, but a lot of these guys can do both. 

An OL next year of Alt/Jenkins/Tom/Myers-Walker-? with Mims or Fuaga at RT should solve your OL issues for the foreseeable future. 

Now...IF we're actually bad enough to be in position to draft a guy like Maye or Williams...I guess you'd have to but I have trouble envisioning a scenario in which we're bad enough that we end up with a top 3-4 pick and I also think a disproportionate amount of the blame has fallen on Love.

 

I'd also disagree with regard to Walker. I don't think he jumped Tom. We went into the season with Tom having won a starting job, Bakh looked healthy and played well week 1 and Walker spent the whole pre-season preparing to be his backup. Obviously, there was the expectation he'd play some, but I think when Bakhtiari went down, it just made much more sense to keep Tom where he was, Walker at LT rather than ask each to play the other side. 

I also take your point with regard to Walker...I just think this class is so abnormally loaded with offensive tackle talent, rather than a 'wait and see,' type approach, I'd rather be aggressive. 

 

Lets change the identify of this team FINALLY. Even when we've been good, it's been a while since we've been a team that just dominated the LOS. For a while, Sitton, Linsley and Lang could certainly create holes inside with Bulaga and Bakhtiari outside.

 

I hope Walker or Caleb Jones...who I'm a fan of, or Luke Tenuta...a guy the Packers are high on, I hope ONE of them comes on so strong they allow the Packers to be a bit more patient with the other OT(I think we all agree if one of the top guys is there in Rd1 we take him). It's just like a cheat code if you can throw out an OL like Philly has or Dallas has/had, the 49ers have.

It takes sooo much pressure off the QB, it takes so much pressure off the RBs, your defense as you're not going 3 and out nearly as often. It opens up your entire playbooks.

We can't do a damn thing right now. Any play that's a little slower developing is getting rushed and Love doesn't have the time to look off safeties. And it's not like we haven't seen what Love CAN do when he's playing vs a good secondary with time in the pocket. Chicago, ATL and NO, the later two both with good secondaries, but poor pass rushes, he sat back there for 3-4 seconds and looked calm, and patient and went through his reads and consistently made big throws on 3rd down.

A dominant OL DRASTICALLY reduces the type of talent you need at QB. Brock Purdy is a nice player, but I will not be convinced he's a better or more talented player than Jordan Love...but he's certainly playing a much higher level. 

 

Beyond that, I don't see many needs on this team other than the OL. A new, more aggressive DC pushes this defense into the top 5, particularly if you have an OL that can run block.

OL-Obviously #1
S-I'd let the season play out, but we finally start to have cap room and as good as this draft is in OT, Safety is the best position for Free Agency. Kameren Curl, the top graded under 25 player by PFF is a FA(estimates at 4/60). Budda Baker will be 28 years old, but is a legitimate super star. Antonio Winfield is one of my favorite players. His Dad was such a pain in the arse in Minnesota and he's the same in TB. He's tough, smart, very good in coverage. Kyle Dugger, like Curl, a bigger, more physical player. Jeremy Chinn, an interesting player if you were to bring in Jim Leonhard and want that bigger, physical safety. Jayron Kearse would be a cheap option.
And I think Savage has really been good. 
The biggest issue is safeties just don't have the same value. 

RB-You definitely need a RB or 2. I think Emanuel Wilson will end up being a really good player. Aaron Jones will likely be back one more year, but a guy like Blake Corum, or the kid from Memphis, Watson. He's very similar to Antonio Gibson. These are 4th/5th round guys.

MLBer-Smael Mondon is a guy I love from watching UGA to see Mims and Van Pran. He's stepped in for Quay Walker and you can see it. Not as physical, every bit as athletic, maybe a bit better in coverage. 

DE-You ALWAYS want DE. If Kris Jenkins would be an ideal pick. Culllen's nephew, he's a 2nd-3rd rd prospect. 

 

I'd just argue that when talking about which positions are a bigger priority, fixing this OL could potentially be the difference in the direction this entire franchise goes. If you have a weakness at safety and you have to start Ford and Douglas or whomever, you need your pass rush to be better and your CBs.

Love's future, the guy we went all in on and created this chasm with Rodgers over, his future could depend on what we do with the OL this year. 

[CheezWizHed]

12 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Now...IF we're actually bad enough to be in position to draft a guy like Maye or Williams...I guess you'd have to but I have trouble envisioning a scenario in which we're bad enough that we end up with a top 3-4 pick and I also think a disproportionate amount of the blame has fallen on Love.

Looking at SB winners for the last 23 years, a very large percentages of them have been won by HOF-type QBs and QB centric.  We are a passing league. 

So when I evaluate Love, it isn't "Is this guy an NFL QB?" but "Can he become a HOF level?".  If the answer is clearly "no", then I think we need to move on to the next guy.  Love has great arm talent, but lacks in accuracy and anticipation of the defense.  So the question to me is ... are those fixable? 55% completion is a non-starter.  62% seems like a minimum.  Love only hit that mark once in 3 years in college.

12 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I also take your point with regard to Walker...I just think this class is so abnormally loaded with offensive tackle talent, rather than a 'wait and see,' type approach, I'd rather be aggressive. 

I was thinking wait and see more in terms of this year with Walker at Tackle. If LT is the BPA for us in the 1st round, he isn't a player you bypass an opportunity to improve.  

 

[BrewerFan]

34 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

Looking at SB winners for the last 23 years, a very large percentages of them have been won by HOF-type QBs and QB centric.  We are a passing league. 

So when I evaluate Love, it isn't "Is this guy an NFL QB?" but "Can he become a HOF level?".  If the answer is clearly "no", then I think we need to move on to the next guy.  Love has great arm talent, but lacks in accuracy and anticipation of the defense.  So the question to me is ... are those fixable? 55% completion is a non-starter.  62% seems like a minimum.  Love only hit that mark once in 3 years in college.

Yeah, winning SBs makes you a HOF caliber QB and Brady has also won 7 of them(and he wasn't HOF caliber the first several few when he needed Bledsoe to come into the AFCCG or was holding the Rams to 17 points, beating the Raiders with the Tuck rule). 

Brock Purdy would be my response to this general line of thinking. Or Jalen Hurts, but he's probably on his way to becoming a HOF-caliber caliber QB.

The point is, a HOF QBs, they end up in the HOF as often because of the time because of team success. You're including 3 Manning runs in there, 2 by Eli who isn't a HOF caliber QB if not for two great defensive lines by his teams and Peyton when he didn't even start most of the year he won his last SB. 

 

But yeah, I said if Williams, you draft the QB. I've said as much about Williams since before Love took over. And everyone else knows who and what Caleb Williams is, so it seems unlikely that, A-we're going to pass up the Bears and Panthers in the "race" for Williams(I'd also include the Cards and a couple other teams in that group). And if it comes to trading up, you're most likely trading away massive draft capital, even if you're sitting at #5. The group of QBs that make you a SB caliber team just by virtue of their presence on a team is exceedingly small and we just had one for 15 years, but lost to inferior QBs regularly because...we didn't have that complimentary FB. We didn't have the defense or running games when Rodgers was losing to Wilson's who had a top defense 4 out of 5 years(#2 the other year) or Kaepernick/Jimmy G who had dominant defenses. 

As for College stats, I couldn't be less interested in what a QB did in College statistically. Josh Allen and Joe Burrow had a combined 1 year meeting your threshold as starting QBs and they're both QBs pretty obviously on their way to HOF careers.

How they play, sure, but their stats? Case Keenum would be the greatest QB of all time if College States told you anything and June Jones would be the NFL version of Mike D'Antoni. If Jordan Love had gone to OSU, he probably have completed 70% of his passes and that wouldn't mean anything to me either.

 

[Strike4]

On 10/23/2023 at 4:27 AM, BrewerFan said:

The Hamstrings on the Packers are apparently as tightly wound as a vegan Karen, so they're just snapping left and right

I am blaming you for the coffee I spilled laughing at this. 

[BrewerFan]

15 minutes ago, Strike4 said:

I am blaming you for the coffee I spilled laughing at this. 

LOL...my apologies!