HarveysWBs

So, after everything else that has gone down so far, we get Davante pulling another disappearing act in a playoff game? This postseason is delivering all the classic hits. Edit: nvm, just double checked Adams’ postseason record. He’s never been this much of a non-factor before.

While I agree that MLF, and the team generally, could probably use more of an edge, I think discussions about this get silly very quickly (which is not so much me saying that’s a problem on this board, but in some of the wilder corners of Packer fandom it’s more of an issue). Allow me to indulge in some recent examples: - Robert Saleh had his rather damning quote a few years ago when we lost to the Jets where he talked about “dragging [the Packers] out to deep water and realizing they can’t swim.” Cool, cool, and probably even accurate—and had to hurt coming from MLF’s best friend—but doesn’t change the fact that the Jets are still the Jets and Saleh got to go back to San Fran and watch his D get boat raced last night by a divisional opponent. Maybe all Saleh’s bravado kept the Seahawks from scoring 50? - Dan Campbell started with “biting kneecaps” and the Lions got to wear “Green Bay Sucks” shirts for a year and now he’s crying in postgame pressers. - Now Ben Johnson has his little boomlet about beating MLF twice a year and “F the Packers” yadda yadda. It’s all the same garbage. There’s having an edge and there’s being a performative macho bung-hole. Mike McCarthy won a Super Bowl and as far as I can tell is a man of unimpeachable character. But his offensive lines were willing to immediately throw down if someone lay hands on Rodgers late or out of bounds. Andy Reid seems like one of the nicest dudes in the league and his bona fides are beyond question, meanwhile there are some absolute dogs on that roster that will rip your heart out. That’s what I want. I am on record thinking this was time for a coaching change. I still think that’s the case, but obviously my thoughts on the matter change nothing. I have little reason to expect dramatically better results next year. But if the team needs some more intensity, that isn’t just a HC thing. I think the next DC will have a lot to say about that, as will Parsons and Kraft stepping back between the lines. That’s where the hope has to be if there is any.

There is a possible world where our third quarter against the Bears looked like this third quarter for the Seahawks, and it makes me sad to think of it.

This nearly makes me ill even considering it. Houston and LA are so easy to root for by comparison.

Now that it’s a done deal, and appears Hafley is moving on, I had a theoretical question occur to me. While I know that the Packers will in all likelihood anoint Covington as DC because that’s what we do, but in theory, what if they wanted, say, Saleh? Because DC to DC is a lateral move, San Francisco would surely block it, and Saleh himself might not even be interested. But if they offered the assistant head coach title along with it, would that free Saleh to pursue the job then? Can a team have more than one “assistant head coach” (Rich B currently holds that title)? This is all strictly academic, but I haven’t seen any specific wording about such a situation.

First round pick compensation may be a pipe dream, but we know there are dumb organizations out there. Some of them give sex offenders fully guaranteed mega deals, and some of them cut bait with generational pass rushers in their primes, so who knows what is possible. I suspect more and more that the hold up boils down to the brass being cheap on coaching contracts in addition to the (perfectly understandable) doubts about LaFleur’s ability to close out big games. Justis Mosqueda has suggested as much through his reporting at APC, citing numerous off the record conversations with league sources about how GB does business. Just like they don’t prioritize putting starters on special teams during the regular season, they don’t want to commit a bunch of money to coaching and staff payroll, probably due to an abundance of caution about the rainy day fund. In this aspect, not having a billionaire owner probably hinders the Packers a bit, since instead of being able to sell a percent or two of an ownership stake every few years like other teams can do, we’re limited to very infrequent stock sales which raise comparatively less money. If we end up getting Hafley as HC and Steno as play calling OC because internal hires are the “Packer way,” I’m not sure I’d prefer that over retaining LaFleur. If they really don’t believe there’s a better option right now, fine, they probably know better than me. But grow a pair and make a call, then be ready to eat some guaranteed money if it doesn’t work out. I would hope our financial situation could handle having two head coaches on the books for a couple years—that isn’t that irresponsible. The stakes are too high for this kind of fence-sitting. If we’re not putting our best foot forward now, when are we going to do it?

If teams know the Packers are in a bind, I imagine they can hold out for less draft pick compensation in a trade. The less it looks like LaFleur and Policy will be able to come to an agreement, the weaker their hand gets in seeking a trade. Other franchises can hold the line on a first rounder, for instance, and bet the Packers to just extend him. The longer this goes, the clearer it becomes that Policy doesn’t have enough faith in him to do a five year deal, fearing he’ll have to eat the last three or four years if we crash out of the postseason again next year. So far, the seeking a trade thing is all speculation. But if we get to that point, and teams know the Packers are done with him (which they would easily deduce if LaFleur was allowed to negotiate with them), why would they give up premium draft compensation and a new contract? They could low ball the Packers or dare them to fire him, and keep all their picks in the process. For all these reasons, I think he’ll be back. And I wonder if that was the point of the leak all along.

Silverstein reported tonight that the hang up is over number of years, not “money.” Considering HC deals are fully guaranteed, however, I think the more accurate description is to say this isn’t about AAV. Not hard to see the logic from either side. MLF is certainly right that he’d get better than a year or two on the open market, and Policy is certainly justified in wanting a quick out after another disastrous postseason loss and a year with three blown double digit fourth quarter leads (and, more specifically, three blown leads in the final five minutes if I’m not mistaken). Silverstein speculated that if they don’t come to terms soon, MLF will be allowed to speak to other teams about a trade. In that case, they’d likely pivot to Hafley. Quo bono? This leak, if true, hurts Green Bay’s position in seeking trade compensation, so I imagine it’s from LaFleur’s people. Not sure I’m down with the idea of Hafley at the helm, since defense would not get any better schematically while the offensive staff becomes a wildcard. Is Hafley likely to be better at in-game decisions? Hard for me to say. I’d like getting a first-rounder this spring, if possible, though. I still think LaFleur’s return is likely, but things are looking fluid.

If they go the route of retaining LaFleur (are we really doing this again?), it would be a pretty big coup if they somehow snag Flores as DC (assuming Hafley gets a HC gig). I read today that Flores is open to accepting a DC position outside of Minnesota, and while I still think he should get a HC job somewhere, I’d love to have him on staff in either capacity. Ideally, in this scenario, they get LaFleur to take a one year extension, on the understanding that a better deal would be forthcoming in the event of marked improvement next year. Then, he either improves and stays on, or you have an in-house replacement as HC in Flores should the ripcord be necessary. But, or course, this will not happen. LaFleur will not accept a one-year extension in this job market (it would be agent malpractice), and he would fight tooth and nail against the brass forcing him to accept his possible replacement waiting in the wings. He seems to me like he would bring a much needed intensity to the team and the sideline that might shake up the “here we go again” mindset that seems to set in during big moments. And I bet he would have found a way to get some more pressure in the 4th quarter and kept the Bears under 25 points somehow.

For whatever it’s worth, the reporting this morning is that the team still wants an extension with LaFleur. Maybe it’s all distraction, maybe they’re stringing things along because a team might actually be interested in trading for him, I don’t know, but I doubt it. If they run this back with the same staff, I think I’m out next year for my own good. I’ll record the games and watch a non-frustrating win if I have the time, or have it on as background, but I’m not subjecting myself to this anymore. The culture is ruined, the players know it and are saying it publicly (see Quay Walker), and extending LaFleur now is the height of folly.

It was over when the Ravens came to Lambeau with the foam cheese grater hats and, in MLF’s own words “big boyed us.” I mean, the definition of an average team from a different conference who has absolutely zero reason to have any strong feelings about us came to our house with those hats and rubbed it in our face. We are no longer a serious organization. We exist as an idea only, and not one with any gravitas. We’re the ones other teams schedule for homecoming so all the fans can go home happy and the team captains get lucky at the dance the next night. As mentioned in the game day thread, the brass has lost Silverstein and James Jones. Silverstein, the dean of Packers journalists, who has to walk into that building and retain working relationships with a team known to be quite prickly about media connections, is calling publicly for change. And Jones isn’t just a beloved former player. He’s practically a member of the org since he’s on the Packers Radio Network broadcast all the time and reps the team everywhere. This regime is over. The only question now is does Policy see it’s over and how does he move on from here.

I actually wouldn’t tear down the roster. We don’t have a first round pick of our own next year anyway, and we’ve got an enviable foundation with Parsons and Love, with a bunch of very nice surrounding skill players to boot. But they need a new voice at the helm of each phase, and they have to quickly shore up the trenches and the CB room and also find a kicker. Since Gutekunst has shown a lack of either the ability or concern or both regarding addressing any of those positional failures for the last several seasons, I lean towards him getting the axe too. But I kind of suspect he stays, and if you held my feet to the fire I’d admit he’s the one I’m least upset about among all the brass. I’m not feeling too charitable, however.

I agree with this, and even if they wanted to part ways with Love, that’s hardly feasible anyway so it’s a silly academic argument at best and obnoxious bar chatter at worst. I don’t think Love himself is the issue, but I also have a hard time fully exonerating him. Yes, he was sensational for most of this one and outplayed Williams consistently. But when you’re the guy making the bag and you have an opponent with an average at best defense on the ropes and it’s do or die time and you let them breathe, that’s not championship caliber. Love did enough to win tonight, sure, but what we’ve seen repeatedly is that Love and LaFleur together have no killer instinct and too often can’t close. I think they have to hope a different regime takes him to the next level in games like this.

You can parse this any way you want, or grind whatever axe is closest at hand. Special teams is the easiest call, and no one is going to shed tears for Bisaccia or McManus getting shown the door. But they say success has many fathers and failure is an orphan. That can’t be allowed to pass anymore. Every level of this organization had its fingerprints all over this thing. Both lines were bad, and they’ve been a problem all year, and they were unacceptably shallow all year. And the entire world knew CB was a glaring weakness. Wouldn’t you know it, those things still hurt the Packers tonight. That’s on Gutekunst. Hafley sounds great at the mic, but his defense just gave up a historic comeback to a QB that routinely can’t hit the broadside of a barn and for whom they had no answers. Nothing he dialed up worked late and while you can say the third quarter offense did his group no favors, I’m not going to defend 25 late points given up when the offense didn’t turn the ball over. That doesn’t fly. And the offense. The magic is gone on the o-line. Steno and Butkus are out of leash. They made their bones on getting maximum production out of some B-grade investment there, but they’re running on reputation and it hasn’t been reality for a while. That second half screamed for ball control and churning some ground yards and they got stuffed in a locker by a Bears front that doesn’t intimidate anyone. But when the chips are down, and everything else is falling down around their ears, the one thing that has to be a constant in Green Bay is the QB and playcaller. At the very least, they have to know how to move the sticks, play situationally sound football, and bleed out a trailing opponent, especially an inferior one (though at this rate, it’ll be nearly impossible to say the Bears should be dogs in next year’s matchups). LaFleur and Love have accomplished much that can be praised, and they were always going to look diminished after Rodgers left. But even accounting for that, they choked again in the second half of a playoff game. They come up small in the biggest moments. But the point is, the whole team comes up small. Running it back is unthinkable, but once you start firing one person, I can’t fathom how you’d defend any of the others when it’s been this bad. The whole team needs a new identity. I can’t see any other way forward.

The failure and rot is at all levels. Lack of investment in secondary and D-line meant the defense collapsed. Supposed offensive-minded coach and excellent QB go dormant when they’re needed most. Soundbite D coordinator is overrated. And that doesn’t even get to special teams. There must be a reckoning.

I’m not sure this org can claim any semblance of seriousness and just run this back. What else does anybody need to see?

Drop drop drop

Ugh

🫠

Would just one guy follow the receiver?! Come on secondary.

Fire all the special teams into the bloody sun! For the love of all that is good, they are a plague…

Rookie got a TD!!!

Now that it’s under one possession, all kinds of interesting choke possibilities open up. Anything can do it. Crucial injury. Pick 6. Snap over Love’s head. Special teams on literally any play…

I’d say it’s unbelievable, but what’s the opposite of that?

Just a FG in that quarter would have been huge. We barely managed a first down. What does anyone expect anymore?