BrewerFan

You don't feel good about Wilken, Black, Boeve, Adams, Bitonti, Baez(further down, but still...huge upside, particularly with Bitonti). Black is a top 50 prospect, and Wilken will probably be a top 50 by the end of this year. We need to be forward-looking, not looking at what we've had in the past years. We have hitters coming up at EVERY position(a MIFer opposite of Turang would be great, though EBJ among others are also there). But we NEED pitching. We have a #2/3 in Peralta, a #1 to 50IP a season injury risk in Ashby and then 4's and 5's. Who cares what we've had the last 10? It's about this team, this system and this group. (Welcome to the board, just disagree with this argument...which you're not alone in).

That's funny...I never hated Jordan. Now I was 5 or 6 when he won his first title, but I was that kid(as I'm sure many others on here were) who watched Sports Center before school and learned to read on the sports section... I remember watching him play the Bucks and rooting for the Bucks, but just being mesmerized. He was different. I feel like you're a bit hard on LeBron...but it's also hard to argue with. I don't see how Jordan loses to that Dallas team for example. GSW? Sure...not Dallas or even SA. I think I'm more charitable with LeBron, though you look at guys like Beasley or other players and they play better elsewhere. It seems to me that if you're playing with LeBron, you're facing an immense amount of pressure that didn't quite exist when MJ played with Social Media and all that. Still extremely tough to play with MJ and the expectations. Maybe Krause was underrated as he did get a team that fit him so incredibly well. The shooters, Pippen who was an elite on ball defender so Jordan didn't have to be every play. A big who could rebound and defend like Grant and then Rodman. Big bodies so Ewing didn't just destroy them. I really can't tell if it's more MJ had teammates who GREW with him and spent time there while LeBron constantly demands turnover. If it's not working RIGHT NOW, he wants trades. Really interesting points though. That run the Bucks were on in the 80s...it seems so wildly underrated among Wisconsin sports fans. The golden era of the NBA. Magic, Bird, Jordan coming on strong, the Bad boys, Dominique, Moses, Dr. J, Cheeks and Barkley and the Bucks were regularly competitive with the top teams. Some years they beat Boston(or at least one) and they'd lose to Philly or we'd beat Philly and lose to Boston. Then it was the Pistons or the Hawks with one of the truly underrated stars in Dominique Wilkins.

Yeah...I remember that now. Still didn't feel like a shot at Barry necessarily... that's just kinda Jaire to your point. I guess if there were comments as pointed as Campbell's...we'd have talked about it much more. On second thought...I'm not even sure it matters if this is all directed specifically at Barry, the scheme, whatever. If your players, guys who are not trouble makers, if they're getting to this point where they're openly making comments about not playing because of issues with the staff, that undermines the HC. So if you fire Barry, you're going to need to earn back the respect in that locker room. You're 3 years in now. Det and Wash fired him after 2. I understand the priority was Love this year and the offense, but...it's been clear Barry needed to go since very early on.

NOW we're applying "logic" from the Angels end? Burnes is a star. If they were a logical, forward thinking franchise, they wouldn't have traded their top prospects and kept Ohtani and instead, they'd have garnered a unprecedented haul of prospects for a 2 month rental of a player. They didn't do that. There's a reason.

Joe Barry just sticking to his bland D. My memory isn't the same on that. I recall Jaire saying something, but I don't recall it being a subtle or not so subtle shot at Barry... But that's just worse. This has been growing for years then. There is someone in that defensive room who knows what the hell they're doing. You saw it with the scheme to beat Minny last year the 2nd time. You saw it with those fronts with the 3 DL, LVN with his hand in the dirt and then Gary/Smith or whoever lined up as an Edge with Quay lined up inside him and playing press vs Det. Good scheme vs KC. And despite those successes we invariably revert back to this conservative cloud type D.

Well...not really. That's the Vic Fangio D. It got more popular, but it's QUICKLY dying off as those schemes have like 7 of the 10 worst defenses. We had Jaire travel with Jefferson the 2nd game...and while you're never going to match a guy up every play and you'l have help, he was on Jefferson nearly every play. Other teams still do this, but it's teams with aggressive DCs who play man heavy schemes. But the more popular, "drop 7, let my front 4 get home/keep it in front of us," Cover 3, Quarters, those CBs don't travel. And it does make the game worse.

Oh...well, there ya go! Couldn't have been a good deal! He showed you how he went 1-7 and struggled the last 30 games!!! Not worth "cash considerations," which is probably 50K? Proof...🙄

I have zero doubt the Brewers could get a top 50 prospect for Burnes. This isn't like the Hader talks(where I agreed, we'd end up disappointed). Burnes is an Ace on the final year of his deal...so in a contract year and he's an incredible talent. They(Brewers fans) may be disappointed because I remember talk of Jackson Holliday and Grayson Rodriguez last year, but there's definitely a happy medium. I think the Phillies are the exact type of team that'd be willing to trade a Painter or an Abel for Burnes and since they lost Kimbrel, maybe you include Williams to pry Painter away. Again, make it a larger deal. They could also use a LFer... So Burnes, Williams, Mitchell for Painter, McGarry? Gives you a risky potential Ace(not much risk, just a TJ). And then gives you an elite arm that needs to be refined. Maybe the Phills are desperate enough to do it...and with Harper playing 1B, Schwarber at DH...they go all in this year trying to win. And then...they're trying to sign Yamamoto, so... They're aggressively pursuing Yamamoto at the moment, but if they miss out, they may want to bolster both their rotation with a dominant starter to go with Nola and Wheeler, pushing Walker into the 4th slot and Suarez into the 5th and Sanchez into their pen.

Why would you HAVE to take Story back and exclude Mayer from the trade? Story can play 2B(which he's mostly played in Boston). They got .599 and .633 OPS out of their SS/2B combo last year. And I don't think you have to exclude Mayer from the deal, but maybe expand it. Williams perhaps. They also have Rafaela who draws comps to Mookie Betts and can play CF, SS, 2B, 3B and play them all at a high level AND hit...and he's MLB-ready. There are a plenty of trades with Boston that'd work; Rafaela, Wikelman Gonzalez(seems like an ideal candidate for our pitching development with plus stuff), and Whitlock has a big ceiling and could certainly help. Hell, if they end up investing in another pitcher, Sale could be a potential trade option. There's plenty of talent in Boston. I just can't tell what direction they're moving in. The Betts trade, letting Xander leave...they seem half in, half out, but Burnes and Adames both seem like great fits for them and we can certainly add plenty of players for our system.

I agree on both counts, but depth is important...especially in your rotation. It's what kept us alive this past year. I hope Crow can add a couple of ticks, get up to 94MPH, his secondary pitches are his best pitches, but more FB velo is always nice. I just liked the SPing depth(especially IF they bring Burnes back, if not, I'd actually get it more). And I also think it's important to have a balanced lineup. Yelich, Frelick, Mitchell, Black, Turang, Bauers(all could be preferred starters) and then Perkins struggles vs LHPing and Dunn, potentially our top utility guy. We're LH heavy and this been an ongoing issue. If Wiemer, Chourio both hit this year, then we're good. Also, a Santana return would help. I do think something else is coming down the barrel though. We'll see what it is.

I may have missed it, but did players articulate their frustrations with Barry last year? I agree it was a mistake. I wouldn't have said colossal because I didn't think they had much of a chance to do anything this year(make the playoffs, but get spanked by a good team). But if that's the case, it's even worse. I had a hard time finding this, but I'm telling you, I don't think MLF has the autonomy people believe he does. https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/05/09/silverstein-critics-see-cracks-green-bay-packers-new-management-structure/1142267001/#:~:text=He was supposed to have,decision-maker%2C sources said. We get FAR more from the NFL every year on the 1st day of the league year than we spend on players salaries(except for when we go nuts with these giant signing bonuses and even then I don't think we've spent more on players salaries+signing bonuses than their National TV Share). So the thought that we low-balled one of the best STC in the NFL the year before the 49ers debacle(that whole season really) or that keeping Pettine or Barry may be due to not wanting to pay 2 Coordinators...it's infuriating. And then there was Drayton. Did he get the job because he earned it...while coaching under the terrible Special Team Coordinators, or because he was on staff and cheap? I'm not saying I know, I'm just saying Murphy taking a larger role and sticking his nose into the hiring decisions other than GM...it's not good for the franchise.

Ok, well, that's not what you said...you said; His defense is his carrying tool. As for how he'll hit, you're guessing how he'll hit. .271/.362/.461 with a ~12% BB rate and a 18% K rate is pretty respectable...particularly given how his early MiLB career went. Drafted, Covid, skipped to AA. Seems like a pretty obvious late bloomer. In any event, he's not Scheiner because he has the same WRC+. The whole plus D at SS and 3B is a pretty big difference over a poor 3B who's more of a 1B/LF putting up the same offensive production.

Exactly. I don't hate this trade, but you nailed it perfectly.

Should start in AAA, clearly more of an IFer and I just went through this. sub .200 BA, well under .300 OBP and a .603 OPS vs LHed pitching. We've long struggled with lefties. This exacerbates that issue. But I'm with @wiguy94. If this is a sign we're looking toward 2025, fine. Makes sense. If we're trying to compete next year, it makes little sense.

I understand that, but as I said, you have Yelich, Mitchell, Frelick who are lefties and Perkins who was BRUTAL vs lefties. Taylor would and should have gotten ABs in '24(again, if he were on the roster). RHed bats have been a weakness. And with respect, I don't really care about Steamer(I know it's a valuable resource but with rookies?). But you have a LOT of innings to cover. Gasser could have pitched WITH Houser in the same rotation or as long men. It was never an either or. I'm fine with the idea of planning more for the future or just trading these players, but again, trashing them(not saying YOU are) or saying they had no value to the team....seems silly. I'm also not excited about a young soft tosser who's undergoing TJ. For as much as you want to say the Brewers produce pitchers, Stearns has been largely responsible for that. So he thought enough of Houser and apparently not a ton of Crow.

Well, that's misleading, but, it's a stupid metric either way(off-season spending). What did we spend on catcher last year? Many wanted to sign a guy...can't remember his name, but good catcher. Went to Chicago and we got this Contreras kid! 24, better than the 31-year-old and we got at least one SU man and quite possibly another who dealt with injury last year. SPENDING is not the end all be all. We've seen that...every year. I don't love this trade at first blush(I do trust Arnold). What I really hate is kinda kicking players in the arse on the way out saying they weren't any good anyway and overpaid...almost as much as the complaining about Attanasio.

YES-WE-DID. That's approximately their yearly value at a very low price. So yeah, that's the value we traded away. Having another young pitcher doesn't mean you have to "replace" Houser. Who is going to replace Woodruff, Burnes, and whoever else inevitably ends up traded or hurt? You're also assuming Gasser is going to just slide into MLB and pitch well despite the fact And Taylor very easily could have gotten opportunities because...again, as I mentioned, we need OFers who can hit RHed pitching and Yelich will DH plenty. Yes...players with his raw power and picturesque swing NEVER develop after LowA.

The "crowing," pun is good maybe once...after that, not so much. I think I'll miss what Taylor provided down the stretch. He was also swinging the bat REALLY well in the series vs AZ. 2R HR and then that bullet where Adames got doubled off. But you're right. It WAS a position of strength. I think Wieguy is arguing we didn't get enough value back and that you're really understating the value these guys brought because they weren't middle of the order hitters or top of the rotation arms. It does in this context. You can't argue a player is overpaid when the market repeatedly proves you wrong. These players went into Free Agency, they got paid...and you're arguing they're overpaid? That's the market telling you exactly what their value is. I understand we had an excess of OFers and it made sense to trade from them, but Taylor very likely had a role in the 2024 OF had they kept him. You have Yelich, Mitchell and Frelick who are all lefties. Perkins put up a ..192/.276/.327 for a paltry .603 OPS last year. Wiemer may well end up being our RHed bat...but it seems likely he needs time in AAA. So I see plenty of opportunities for Taylor, if he were to remain in Milwaukee to be a RHed bat off the bench. Certainly worth the 1.7M. I hope they end up being right about Crow...but you're likely hoping he ends up as good as Houser. So...he had value. Again, not "crowing" about this trade, but it feels more like a salary dump...and underselling the value the players we traded had to this team seems...a bit disingenuous.

Scheiner and Devanney are not the same player. Devanney is a SS/3B who plays outstanding defense. Scheiner is a 3B/1B who does not.

Houser is NOT overpaid and I hate the term "innings eater," in a derogatory manner. You NEED people to throw innings. He's thrown over 350 the last 3 years and his ERA is right about 4.00. In no way is that remotely overpaid when looking at starting pitching. He's a good, valuable pitcher and that much more valuable when you're looking at these 6 man rotations that we've shifted toward. Taylor...I think high quality is a pretty fitting description of him as a 4th OFer. He can play all 3 OF positions at a high level and he's got power. 2.1 WAR in '22, 1.7 in '21. Last year he dealt with the arm injury, but he was carrying us toward the end of last year. I think that's pretty high quality for a 4th OFer. You traded away ~3 WAR a season roughly...and you got back a pitcher with a low ceiling. I'm not going to mourn the loss of Houser, but it's a blow and he was hardly overpaid in 2023.

Well, for the sake of argument, you'd justifiably be able to keep him in the minors for quite a while rehabbing(6 weeks is it?)...and then given that he's coming back off TJ, it wouldn't be hard to say he's dealing with more arm fatigue and then do that again. But you're still well short of the service time requisite and you head into '25 in the same situation.

I'd think it'd be the current years draft pool(meaning the year the player was drafted) and then the time before the draft allows for the potential punishment(if you went over enough to lose the pick). But I've tried looking that up as well and can't find it. I do wonder what a guy like Misiorowski would have done if he'd been offered 1.8M. Would he turn that down and roll the dice in the draft? He wasn't someone everyone had on their top 100 boards IIRC. He was a guy people were all over the board on. He got a bigger bonus, but that was after he had more leverage as the 2nd rd pick. I'm sure it's going to be rare though.

They could have just non-tendered them. They must like Crow's arm somewhat.

I really like MLF, think he's a good coach for Love, the offense...but IF he's lost the locker room, even if it's just because of Barry, then you may be right. There's so little information available beyond the obvious fact that players are not happy, it's hard to tell. How badly hurt IS Jaire? Two years ago he had that broken shoulder and we kept hoping he'd be back, it played out like this and he was back part-time vs SF and not able to tackle Deebo. I think we'll again find out after this season what the injury was and have a better idea. I'd like to hear what Kenny Clark thinks. He's a professional, never had ANY attitude issues and he's the most veteran leader on the team. This cannot be allowed to snowball. Players can't talk about not playing banged up because of coaching remarks and coaches need to be smart enough to have the pulse of the locker room. And as much as I like Jim Leonhard, if a guy like Saleh(he won't) becomes available, it may be a good idea to get a former HC in there. Zimmer perhaps... I'd love to see Al Harris brought back to GB as the DBs coach/passing game coordinator. Not sure that's a good enough promotion, but spend the money. What the hell else do the Packers have to do with it? I don't know how good of a coach Stenovich is since he doesn't call plays(the OL has improved as the season has gone on). There are a lot of things to be excited about with this team. Love, the young talent on both sides who've played well individually. We're close personnel-wise. Just young players growing, a LT, Safety...but with a team this young, leadership is as important as anything.

Yeah, it was a let down. Leonhard turned down the job, then it was between two coaches, one who'd never been a DC, one who was an up-and-coming coach. I tried to be optimistic as Preston Smith was probably one of the 2-3 best players Barry had in Washington or Det, but he'd failed as a DC. It really feels like MLF talks to Barry every year, he adjusts a little bit, they play better and then he just goes back to nickel playing Quarters or as it was last week, some SOFT ass cover 6 on 3rd and 4.