How do you define an ace?

[Oldcity]

I recently have had some good discussion with some friends about what defines an ace pitcher. "Ace" is a term that gets thrown around quite a bit for something so tangible. I'm curious to see how people define an ace. Is it all about numbers? Is it about a pitcher's arsenal? People I've been debating with lean more towards the "stuff" side. The specific example we were debating was Dan Haren. He called Haren a "good number two starter," while I would definitely call him an ace. His reasoning was that Haren doesn't have great velocity on his fastball. He's of the belief that an ace should have three plus pitches, but I can hardly think of any pitchers in the majors who actually have three plus pitches.

 

Some questions:

 

Does a pitcher have to have "great stuff" to be an ace?

 

How many aces are there in the game?

 

After no brainer guys like Santana and Halladay, who do you consider aces?

 

Who are some guys commonly considered aces who shouldn't be?

 

If you're more about numbers, what are some "cut-off" numbers a pitcher must have to be considered an ace? A big one for me is a k/bb rate of at least 3 (k/bb rate is usually the first thing I look at when evaluating a pitcher), but that's obviously just my view.

 

I know this will all just be everyone's opinion and there's really no right answer, but I'm wondering where most people stand on this topic.

[Ennder]

I'm not much of a fan of the term ace because I think the best pitcher on every team is the team ace so there are 30 of them, but going by the definition you are using I wouldn't say the stuff has to be great but they have to go deep into games and pitch well on a consistent basis and do it for multiple seasons. So someone like Kazmir or Harden wouldn't be an ace, they just leave the game too early too often.

 

 

Halladay, Lincecum, Sabathia, Peavy, Santana, Hamels are the only sure things I can think of. Peavy being a little questionable because of the park he plays in.

 

Haren, Beckett, Hernandez, Oswalt could all make a strong case as well.

 

Guys like Greinke, Gallardo, Johnson could become aces with a little longer track record.

 

I forgot Webb in my initial post who would go in the ace list if he weren't injured. Lackey would probably go into the has a strong case if he were healthy as would Sheets. Not sure what to do with the injured guys in the discussion.

[Invader3K]

The difference between a "number one" and an "ace" is that the #1 guy just happens to pitch at the front of his rotation. A true ace will consistently put up very good to great performances throughout a season, and almost always give his team a strong chance to win. They will also have an established track record of success. I would pretty much agree with Ennder's list based on those criteria.

[Baldkin]

Sabathia, Hamels, Verlander...

 

My definition of an ace: Even during a terrible start (for him) he still gives the team a great chance to win the game.

[Ennder]

The difference between a "number one" and an "ace" is that the #1 guy just happens to pitch at the front of his rotation

 

Sure but for my money the top 30 pitchers in baseball are all aces. The fact that the run scoring environment of today makes the 30th best guy not look amazing doesn't change it. In today's game any pitcher who keeps his ERA under 4 on a regular basis and goes 6-7 innings on a regular basis is probably really an ace, it just isn't the definition most use.

[Oldcity]

I tend to agree with Ennder. I'd call the guys he mentioned (Halladay, Sabathia, Hamels, Lincecum) HOF talents, but I don't see the point of saying there are only eight or so aces in baseball. I prefer "frontline starter," the term that's being thrown around in the trade rumors forum. It's all semantics anyway, so maybe the better question would be what are your favorite ways to evaluate a pitcher?

 

Saying what he said--that guys who consistently keep their ERA under 4.00 and pitch 6-7 innings routinely--doesn't sound that impressive, but only 40 qualified starters had FIPs below 4.00 in 2008 (Haren was fourth incidentally), only 31 did in 2007, only 26 in 2006. In truth, that really does make you an elite starting pitcher.

[jwill535]

An Ace is like porn, you know it when you see it.

[jjkoestler]

I prefer the term "stopper." Any pitcher that can come in during a losing streak and shut the opponent down is an ace or stopper IMO.

[craigharmann]

Ben Sheets

[brewdude15]

Chad Billingsley, anyone?

[zzzmanwitz]

When healthy, Sheets is an Ace... not sure why that would be in blue...

[craigharmann]

When healthy, Sheets is an Ace... not sure why that would be in blue...

Because of all the discussion regarding the "aceyness" or brokenness of Sheets.

[Tbadder]

For me, it's great stuff plus great location plus great demeanor. That's why in my book Gallardo will never be an ace. He's got two outta three. But boy oh boy what a #2 he is.

[Ennder]

Which one doesn't Gallardo have? He's got great stuff, he has a great demeanor and his location(I assume this is the one?) is pretty good especially considering his age and experience.

[razzzorsharp]

Chris Capuano-The True Ace

[saxyman1004]

Carlos Zambrano deserves a mention, I think.

[jjkoestler]

Carlos Zambrano deserves a mention, I think.

 

Agreed. When he is on he is one of the best. He also deserves a sedative and shock collar.

[craigharmann]

Carlos Zambrano deserves a mention, I think.

Stuff-wise, yes. But I think part of being an ace is having a mental toughness, and that ain't something Big Z has.

[Oldcity]

Gallardo's fastball doesn't light up the radar gun, so maybe that's what Tbadder was referring to? He definitely has a great curve though.

[Tbadder]

Yeah, I'm talking stuff. Benny's curve and his fastball were better than Gallardo's. Sheets was more of a classic ace than Yovanni, but obviously he was all unfulfilled potential. I am baffled at Yo's inability to throw strikes lately, especially his curveball. It's a good curve, effective no doubt when on.

[Ennder]

You don't K 198 of the first 212 IP you pitch without good stuff. It is deceptively good instead of raw power good. Gallardo has 4 pitches with positive value in his career which is not something many pitchers have.

[CheezWizHed]

The main problem I have with "stuff" being tied to an ace is this: Gregg Maddux and Tom Glavine of the 1990s. Neither one was overpowering, but had unbelievable control. Both were aces, but without the Roger Clemens/Nolan Ryan/Randy Johnson "stuff".

 

Assuming Gallardo gets more track record at his current pace (i.e. total MLB innings, not just this year), he has to be considered an Ace.

[joepepsi]

When healthy, Sheets is an Ace... not sure why that would be in blue...

Completely agree. There are very few games in his career where the team didn't have a chance to win.

[topper09er]

When you look at a 3 game series and say to yourself we need to win these 2 because pitcher X is going on the other day and that is a virtual loss, pitcher X would be an ace.

[eanelson4]

When I think of an ace, I think of this:

 

1) Someone who takes the ball every 5 days for his team. He isn't injury prone and alwasy seems to be out there

2) A guy who is able to give his team a chance to win almost every time out, no matter who he is facing

3) A guy who provides consistent results and can be depended on in the regular season and especially in the post season

4) Obviously someone that may have good "stuff", but more importantly can pitch deep into games (Note: This does not mean he needs to be able to have a k/9 of 8-10, but rather is able to pitch effectively and get outs whether that is through the strikeout or not)

5) A guy you can give the ball to when your team is in a bad slide, knowing he is likely to get you a win

 

I'm sure there are other things, but that is kind of what I would characterize as an "ace". I don't base an ace on his "stuff" as much as I do reliability and effectiveness because there are way too many examples of guys that have GREAT stuff, but won't take the hill every 5 days because they will probably be injured at some point (Ben Sheets, Rich Harden, Kerry Wood, and Mark Prior to name a few).