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When is the last time Estrada has thrown a base stealer out? (merged: JB12's 'unnamed scout' comment on Johnny)

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Weird...I was at the game today thinking that I was gonna come home and start a thread about this. I don't know what his actual stats are, but as a just a gut feeling, and possibly knee-jerk reaction, I don't feel like he's able to throw anyone out. I had to look twice today to make sure it was really Ryan Klesko that stole on him. Seems like Bush has a slow delivery though, so that may have had an effect today.

If I had Braun's pee in my fridge I'd tell everybody.


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Johnny has thrown out 11 of 53 potential base stealers this year, giving him a .208 success rate. It's a lousy percentage, but at least his CSs aren't non-existent.


To find his last CS, we need a game log that shows defensive stuff. I don't know where one exists. I remember wanting the same thing last year when Weeks suddenly stopped making errors.


Otherwise, I guess we're stuck looking up individual box scores. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

That’s the only thing Chicago’s good for: to tell people where Wisconsin is.

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1) Throwing out a basestealer really is more a function of the pitcher than the catcher ( I will agree that Estradas arm is a little soft). The P must keep the runner close to 1st, and not throw out of the stretch.


2) Pitcher tossing offspeed junk, won't improve the throw to second either. The catcher is more concerned with catching the ball/or blocking it than the runner.


3) Late in the game, its a 4 hit shutout, how concerned should you be with a guy moving to second?


4) Bonds was coming up, you would walk him withthe open base any how. Who cares that its a steal.


5) The ability of Estrada and or Miller to do any aspect of Catching at the ML level did not cost the Crew this game

or any other. IMHO.

They were stranding Weeks on base for cryin out loud.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

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The P must keep the runner close to 1st, and not throw out of the stretch.


I don't know of any pitchers that use a full windup with a runner on base. And if i'm Dave Bush, i'm really not too concerned with keeping Klesko close.


Late in the game, its a 4 hit shutout, how concerned should you be with a guy moving to second?


Understood. But the steals were coming early in the game. I believe it was still 1-0 when Klesko stole second and they got a 2-run rally started.


Bonds was coming up, you would walk him withthe open base any how. Who cares that its a steal.


So we just let a guy steal because we know that we can walk the next guy? Based on that argument, you're allowing the open base to happen just because you want to walk Bonds anyway, so why wouldn't you walk him every time...open base or not? I can't stand the idea of walking him. I even disagreed with Yost walking him with a runner on 2nd and 2 outs. This is not Pujols, Howard, A-rod, etc. This is mortal Barry, and he really has come down to earth to the point where we can get him out.

If I had Braun's pee in my fridge I'd tell everybody.


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Estrada rarely has a chance to throw out the runner, but his mechanics behind the plate and his arm are pretty pathetic. If you were to show youngsters the fundamentals of catching you would not want Estrada anywhere near them. He plays the game half-a** much of the time, refusing to run hard on ground balls and swings at pretty much anything. Can't wait until he is done in Milwaukee. I'm sure I'm in the very small minority on this one.
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I wasn't really referencing just yeterdays game, but the fact that just because a runner is not thrown out on a steal attempt the catcher is immediately at fault.

As you point out, Bush (and youhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ) are not concerned with keeping Klesko or whomever close to 1st base. The runner gets a dandy jump, the pitcher throws low offspeed junk, and the runner advances. The catcher is just one part of the whole equation. In fact stealing second is mostly based on the timeing and speed of the pitch as opposed to your catchers ability to toss to second base.

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I'll also add that most times I have seen him try to throw a base stealer going to second out he always throws it to the right of the bag to the point where it skips to the CF. He's done it a ton of times this season.



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I know it's the pitcher's responsibility to give the catchers a chance to throw guys out but Estrada's arm/release really leave something to be desired.


If this team makes the playoffs, my fear is that some of the better running teams (Mets, Dodgers, etc.) will be able to exploit this weakness big time. If you let walks turn into doubles time and time again, you will end up getting burned.

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I thought it might be about time this thread had a serious answer, and the answer is this past Thursday when Estrada threw out Chris Young of the D-backs.


(Meanwhile he has 6 walks on the season, the lastest was June 26.)


Estrada's CS for 2007:


7/19 Chris Young (Gallardo)

6/23 David DeJesus (Bush)

6/15 Luis Castillo (Vargas)

5/26 Rob Bowen (Shouse, why was a catcher trying to steal 3rd?)

5/23 Russell Martin (Villanueva)

5/23 Jeff Kent (Villanueva, 2 in a game! this was also 3rd base)

5/4 Adam LaRoche (Vargas)

4/28 Carlos Lee (Bush)

4/23 Derrek Lee (Vargas, 3rd base)


2 more CS attributed to Estrada were actually pickoffs by the pitcher.


Estrada's SB against:


7/22 Dave Roberts (Vargas)

7/21 Ryan Klesko, Ray Durham (Bush); Randy Winn (Shouse)

7/19 Stephen Drew (Wise)

7/17 Eric Byrnes twice (Vargas)

7/16 Eric Byrnes (Bush)

7/3 Jose Bautista (Capuano)

6/26 Hunter Pence (Vargas)

6/25 Hunter Pence (Sheets)

6/17 Luis Castillo (Capellan), Jason Tyner (Suppan)

6/14 Curtis Granderson (Sheets)

6/10 Gerald Laird (Bush), Jerry Hairston (Cordero)

6/6 Cesar Izturis (Shouse), Derrek Lee (Suppan), Felix Pie (Wise)

6/4 Michael Barrett (Bush)

5/31 Hanley Ramirez (Vargas)

5/29 Andruw Jones, Willie Harris (Sheets)

5/27 Mike Cameron (Spurling)

5/26 Marcus Giles (Vargas)

5/23 Luis Gonzalez (Capuano), Juan Pierre (Wise)

5/22 Rafael Furcal, Russell Martin (Sheets)

5/21 Juan Pierre (Wise)

5/19 Michael Cuddyer (Shouse)

5/18 Torii Hunter (Capuano)

5/17 Shane Victorino (Cordero)

5/15 Jimmy Rollins (Shouse)

5/13 David Wright 3 (Capuano, Villanueva, 3rd off Villanueva); Jose Reyes (Capuano); Carlos Gomez (Dessens)

5/12 David Wright (Sheets)

5/11 Jose Reyes (Suppan)

4/20 Chris Burke, Craig Biggio, Carlos Lee (Sheets)

4/17 Adam Dunn (Bush)

4/14 Chris Duncan (Suppan)

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  • 1 month later...

I agree Sheets is one of the slower members of the staff getting the ball to the plate but it's not like runners don't steal easily on almost any of our pitchers when Estrada is behind the dish. Some of it is the pitcher's responsibility, but he's just not good at throwing out runners.


The problem is outside of the Miller, Rivera and Rottino, none of which are spectacular, we have no other options right now so it is what it is.

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I'd rather see a Miller/Rivera combo from this point forward. MUCH better at the plate (Miller and Rivera have hit as many homers in the past two games than Estrada has hit since July 7). Do you guys realize that Estrada had 2 rbi's the entire month of August? Pathetic. As far as defense/throwing goes...obviously you can't get any worse than Estrada. Teams are going to keep running on him non-stop. At least I've witnessed Miller throw a couple of guys out since the Summer Solstice. What was he talking about with Fielder in the dugout after the game? Was he asking him to grab a handful of jersey for a second when guys make their break for second? Maybe the pitcher should start cutting off his throws to second (that is if they aren't about 6 feet off target to the right.


Frankly, I've had it with Estrada. I swear that he has gained about 2 pounds a week for the entire season. Unacceptable. No wonder he has the problems with his legs. He is a lazy loafer and needs to be shut down for the season.

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The thing I have been wondering about is "Were the Reds running on Estrada, or Sheets+Estrada"


At the end of the day -- Sheets shouldn't give up the hits, and HR to Dunn -- but if the Reds decide to run on Estrada today, that is a huge burden to put on the pitchers, that any single or walk has a 93% chance of becoming a double. Coupled with the bad defense, if I am a pitcher like Jeff Suppan, I get pretty nervous about not giving up a lot of runs.

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I don't remember ever in my life seeing the sort of stealing at will that happened yesterday in the first inning yesterday. If Sheets is slow, it is certainly magnified by the inability of Estrada to throw. Perhaps Miller should be Sheets catcher next time.


I too would rather see Rivera and Miller. I think, in retrospect, picking up Estrada really has not seemed to add much...that is not to say that this could have been predicted in advance.

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According to Yost Estrada made a couple of good throws last night. Just goes to show you how clueless Ned really is. Estrada is the worst defensive catcher that I have ever seen and coupled with his lack of power and .300 OBP is an albatross for this team. Bringing him back next year would be completely unacceptable.
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