Heart

[BrewCityUnit]

I don't know if this deserves it's own thread but we have talked about it alot and I got a great quote from Dennis Green that sums it all up.

 

 

"We define heart as hustle, execution, attitude, respect and technique."

[brettac1]

But how do you identify it and how do you correlate it's existence with winning? Baseball is for the most part an individual sport, football isn't. There are so many other tools/stats to use to evaluate a player that "intangibles" and unquantifiables should be among the last things to be considered.

[rwa12]

Now we just have to define the five words he used in his acronym...so instead of arguing over 1 definition, we haggle over 5...this is becoming more complex by the day. Attitude and hustle are two things that I think are extremely hard to quantify.

[nsimps]

Just because a quality can not be easily quantified does not mean it does not have an effect on performance.

[bjamesw22]

But how do you identify it and how do you correlate it's existence with winning?

 

This is a revolving door argument that people for it and against it will argue until the end of time. Just because you can't measure it does not mean it doesn't have importance. And because you CAN'T measure it, there is no way to determine what impact it has, only to say that it DOES have one.

 

Baseball is for the most part an individual sport, football isn't.

 

That is very untrue and you are contradicting many statements you make on a daily basis. You have been one of the biggest advocates that RBI's are a team stat. How about a pitcher's winning percentage? How about rallies? How about runs? I could go on and on.

[rluzinski]

Technique is "heart"? So Weeks isn't showing heart when he screws up his footwork on a double play?

 

Now I'm really confused.

[BrewCityUnit]

I agree brett about the "whole" team sport thing to a degree, but you don't think baseball is a team sport at all? Don't the good teams do whatever it takes to win instead of just knocking the ball around the park and raising their OPS.

 

I think it is identified in the sentence, execution is part of it. But it is doing the little thing and taking responsbility and actually caring about how you perform. Meeting expectations with the desire to do better.

[brettac1]

but you don't think baseball is a team sport at all?

 

I said "for the most part". I didn't say completely, not to argue semantics.

 

Don't the good teams do whatever it takes to win instead of just knocking the ball around the park and raising their OPS.

 

I don't know, that's how Boston does it. And the Yankees. I kind of like that, since OPS correlates more to winning and run scoring than anything.

[BrewCityUnit]

I think technique can be used to describe heart when talking about changing your technique and working hard to better yourself through practice and preperation

[rluzinski]

I think technique can be used to describe heart when talking about changing your technique and working hard to better yourself through practice and preperation

 

You got me there. If heart is part "working hard to improve yourself" then I would agree that it's important. I just don't see it helping on a game by game basis, for the most part. Heart doesn't make you hit the ball harder or more often in clutch moments. A batter has nothing to rely on in those situations but their abilities and a cool head.

[nsimps]

As for how "heart" affects play, let's take one extreme example. To protect the innocent we shall call this totally hypothetical player Barry Neffield. This player would, when lacking emotional desire aka heart, be known to tank plays and play poorly to get traded to another team. This player (again, that is a pure construction to prove a point) would not do this simply once in his career, he would do it repeatedly. Because we can't quantify this player's lack of heart, does that mean it will not effect his performance?

[rluzinski]

This Barry Neffield fella you speak of sounds like a in a million kinda guy. I suspect most guys give it a good effort because it's in their best interest to do so.

[brettac1]

If "Barry Neffield" also carried a .928 career OPS, you'd really have to wonder what heart would have made him. He's already a HOF-caliber player, and I'd take him on my team.

[nsimps]

How do you know that there aren't several Barry Neffields around the league that become emotionally detached and thus "go through the motions" at points in their play?

 

And as for having him on your team, wouldn't you only want him on your team if he wanted to be on your team? Otherwise there is no assurance of a lofty OPS.

[BrewCityUnit]

but Barry Neffield, only cares about Barry Neffield. His numbers are one thing, but do those numbers produce World Series titles (the ultimate goal). Think of how good Barry would be if he put his team's goals infront of his own. Its kind of like when you were in school or at your job when you have someone on your team who you don't like or respect, it makes it much more difficult to accomplish what the whole team wants to accomplish and it makes for a very unpleasant atmosphere.

[brettac1]

I would still seem to me that he would try and put up great numbers to get his way out of town. "Neffield" may have been rushed to the big leagues, to begin with, but once he hit 24-25 he sure seemed to be a really good bet to put up amazing numbers year in and year out.

 

His numbers are one thing, but do those numbers produce World Series titles (the ultimate goal).

 

I think they would. They are pretty elite numbers, one player can't win a World Series. If they could, "Gary Monds" would have a bunch of them because he hasn't posted an OPS under 1.000 since 1992.

[bjamesw22]

If heart is part "working hard to improve yourself" then I would agree that it's important. I just don't see it helping on a game by game basis, for the most part.

 

Of course that's what heart is, what did you think it was?!? Yes, it is important.

 

How then does it not help on a game by game basis? Isn't that what players to to get better? Work hard day in and day out? And why throw in the "for the most part", so you have an out when someone disagrees with your statement? The fact is, you know it is important but because your statistical mind can't fit it into numbers, you'd rather ignore it and only accept the things you know to be the generalities AKA probabilities and statistics. And that isn't right. And the fact that you can't put it into numbers, you cannot then determine how much it, in fact, has an influence on the game.

[rwa12]

What do you think of a player like Jon Olerud, who is pretty much a robot, but has managed a nice career? Is he bad because he has no heart?

[rluzinski]

but do those numbers produce World Series titles (the ultimate goal).

 

His OPS doesn't score runs because he's an idiot? How exactly does that work?

[brettac1]

Sure, that helmet is all heart! I prefer guys like Chris Stynes, though because he gets mad and sucks. That's better than a guy that just rakes and doesn't show emotion.

[BrewCityUnit]

Since when did I say heart was defined by emotion. Just because Olerud isn't flashy or might seem boring doesn't have any indication of his heart. Don't you think Olerud spent countless numbers of hours in the batting cages and on the practice field. That comment seems silly to me.

[rwa12]

What about when a guy shows too much heart...like when Bill Hall tries so hard to do well that he flails blindly at pitches, and throws temper tantrums in the dugout, who does this help?

[BrewCityUnit]

I think heart has a lot to do with why Sheffield and Bonds haven't one anything. They don't keep their teammates happy. Why would anyone go the extra mile for one of them when they wouldn't return the favor. You made my point when arguing why I wouldn't want Sheffield. He is not a winner, I don't care what is OPS is.

[bjamesw22]

What about when a guy shows too much heart...like when Bill Hall tries so hard to do well that he flails blindly at pitches, and throws temper tantrums in the dugout, who does this help?

 

I'll echoe what Brew said, who said "heart" had anything to do with emotion?

[BrewCityUnit]

Individual performance only matters when you are a stat head. I will take team performance any day over indivdual success. And I think it has been proven that they don't go hand in hand