Burnes hires BorasCorp for representation

[Brewcrew82]

31 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Perhaps the people you should be angry with are the people off the field, not the people on the field. 

There are some people who like to shill for MLB ownership; I'm not one of them. 

[TURBO]

12 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Except he didn't disparage the team. He disparaged the team's FO, which he believed made unfair and unnecessary comments about his performance last season. There's a difference....To be honest, I could care less about the front office so long as they're able to put high-quality players onto the field. The players are the ones who make up the team and are the reason why I watch. 

Believe it or not, Burnes is far from the first player to rip on a front office's handling of the arbitration process. He may have been the most outward this go around, but he's not the first, nor the last...It's the system that people should be mad at.

He's not out to make MKE or the team look bad; he's heaped nothing but praise onto the community, the fanbase, his teammates, etc. 

2 things.

1. If you go to arbitration, both sides will be saying things to make the other side look bad.  The fact the Brewers had to say things that hurt his feelings is part of the process, which he had to know going in.

2. He was out to make the Milwaukee organization look bad or he wouldn't have said what he did.

Look, his feelings were hurt, so he said some things he shouldn't have said. It's really as simple as that.

I don't like him any less than before all this went down, I'm just sad that probably the best pitcher we've ever had will have to be sent packing because we can't pay him.  MLB is broken when it comes to even playing fields, but it is what it is.

[Brewcrew82]

1 minute ago, TURBO said:

2 things.

1. If you go to arbitration, both sides will be saying things to make the other side look bad.  The fact the Brewers had to say things that hurt his feelings is part of the process, which he had to know going in.

2. He was out to make the Milwaukee organization look bad or he wouldn't have said what he did.

Look, his feelings were hurt, so he said some things he shouldn't have said. It's really as simple as that.

I don't like him any less than before all this went down, I'm just sad that probably the best pitcher we've ever had will have to be sent packing because we can't pay him.  MLB is broken when it comes to even playing fields, but it is what it is.

Agreed. The system is what it is and it sucks.

Though, I do think Burnes has earned the right to voice his opinion. Should he not have said what he said? Maybe, but I'm not going to fault a guy for being honest with the fans and the media. 

Nor do I take his comments as being disparaging to the team. The ownership and FO? Yes. But I honestly don't give a crap about them. It's the players, fans, community, etc. who make up the team.

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 minutes ago, TURBO said:

If you go to arbitration, both sides will be saying things to make the other side look bad.  The fact the Brewers had to say things that hurt his feelings is part of the process, which he had to know going in.

Let's look at this statement for a moment.

What can Burnes say to make the Brewers look bad and how could that impact the arbitration process?

If only one side can make the other look bad, that's not equal footing, that's the lesser person clawing for all they can get.

[TURBO]

8 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Let's look at this statement for a moment.

What can Burnes say to make the Brewers look bad and how could that impact the arbitration process?

If only one side can make the other look bad, that's not equal footing, that's the lesser person clawing for all they can get.

Ok, that's fair. 

But again, when he took them to arbitration, he knew, KNEW that they would have to state why it was that they didn't feel he deserved what he asked for.  This is how the game works, and him having hurt feelings is why he said the things he said after.  Had Burnes won, would he have said the same things, or would he have felt the victor and that would have been the end of it.

So far, I like how Woodruff and Adames have handled things.  I wish Corbin would have just shut his mouth and waited for his inevitable payday, but that isn't what happened.  Like I said earlier, I don't like him any less, he just shouldn't have said what he did.  In the eyes of many, the things he said put him in a negative light, whether he deserves it or not.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Burnes spouting off publicly about a hearing that by design takes place privately told me this was all premeditated from his side, and there was nothing the Brewers could have offered before the arbitration deadline that would've avoided the hearing in the first place.   Sorry Corbin, the process is what it is and you embraced slogging through the worst of it in effort to set arbitration precedent.  I get having sour grapes about losing the hearing and having to sit through a statistical breakdown by the team that drafted you/developed you/stuck with you through a horrid 2019/and who plans to start you on Opening Day knowing you're their best pitcher that doesn't paint everything in the rosiest colors so their side (which is also heavily tied to the other MLB organizations) wins.  But, that doesn't mean you get to pout about it publicly without people feeling like you could use a reality check.

This was discussed at length in a previous post about the lost hearing and Corbin's immediate comments afterwards, but Burnes and his representation at the time opted to go to the mat over probably about $350K in 2023 pretax salary difference from Burnes' initial offer and where the two sides were in negotiations at the arbitration deadline, knowing full well if they lost the hearing Burnes would be paid ~$750K less AND the two parties would have to slog through the arbitration hearing.  And this drawing a line in the sand over the delta on a contract of at least $10M ($350K is about 3.3% of a 'meet in the middle' $10.5M contract offer)...and he's fully aware that in a couple offseasons he's likely going to sign somewhere for closer to a quarter billion dollars of guaranteed money.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 hours ago, TURBO said:

Ok, that's fair. 

But again, when he took them to arbitration, he knew, KNEW that they would have to state why it was that they didn't feel he deserved what he asked for.  This is how the game works, and him having hurt feelings is why he said the things he said after.  Had Burnes won, would he have said the same things, or would he have felt the victor and that would have been the end of it.

So far, I like how Woodruff and Adames have handled things.  I wish Corbin would have just shut his mouth and waited for his inevitable payday, but that isn't what happened.  Like I said earlier, I don't like him any less, he just shouldn't have said what he did.  In the eyes of many, the things he said put him in a negative light, whether he deserves it or not.

I also agree that Burnes didn’t do himself any favors by complaining publicly. It only alienates the fanbase and creates contention. 

[MrTPlush]

Brewers should start Woodruff on opening day and then next winter we can point out in the arbitration hearing that he wasn't even the opening day starter. Then we can harvest all the sour grapes/tears he sheds to sell and increase payroll.

[monty57]

11 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Agreed. The system is what it is and it sucks.

Though, I do think Burnes has earned the right to voice his opinion. Should he not have said what he said? Maybe, but I'm not going to fault a guy for being honest with the fans and the media. 

Nor do I take his comments as being disparaging to the team. The ownership and FO? Yes. But I honestly don't give a crap about them. It's the players, fans, community, etc. who make up the team.

So I can't say that due to recent events I like players like Woodruff, Adames, Williams, and Urias more than Burnes, but you can say that the owner, GM, scouts, etc. aren't part of the team?

Were the Brewers not the Brewers ten years ago when we had virtually the same ownership group, but completely different players?

I just don't like some of the things Burnes has done this offseason, I don't hate him personally or take issue against all players because one guy said something. Based on the last sentence of yours that I quoted, I think your issues are far deeper.

[nate82]

Didn’t Prince do this when he was about to hit free agency?  I believe he signed a 2-year contract to avoid the last two years of arbitration.  The Prince situation was a little bit different as he was mad with the Brewers for not coming to him for a contract extension after giving one to Braun.  

[monty57]

34 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Didn’t Prince do this when he was about to hit free agency?  I believe he signed a 2-year contract to avoid the last two years of arbitration.  The Prince situation was a little bit different as he was mad with the Brewers for not coming to him for a contract extension after giving one to Braun.  

It was a while ago, so my memory might be off, but I seem to remember the team offering him an extension (or at least a free agent contract) but like the Sabathia offer, everyone knew it wasn't going to be as big as he'd get elsewhere.

The only "complaint" I remember from Prince was in his final pre-arby year, where he wanted more than the Brewers were offering, so they didn't come to an agreement and the Brewers ended up renewing his contract for something like $900k citing a formula they used that showed that was what his final pre-arby year was worth. I think it was kind of a foregone conclusion from there that he was going to play to free agency and leave. They signed the two-year deal you mentioned, but that just gave arbitration certainty, and didn't buy out any free agency years.

Melvin "shopped" him prior to his final season, but was asking for a packaged headlined by two MLB pitchers in return, which at the time I figured was ridiculous as no team who was competing for the playoffs (the only teams that would trade for a guy with one season remaining) would give up two of their MLB starters.

When Melvin couldn't find a trade partner, he changed gears and traded for Grienke and Marcum to go for it in Prince's last season. They had a solid team and made it to the NLCS, where they were beat out by the Dodgers, with the final crushing defeat happening on my birthday. My kids still remind me of it.

Prince always had a "I'm going to prove to the world why I'm worth it" attitude. I recall him referencing the Moneyball "Prince was the one player who was too fat for even Beane and the A's" line as motivation.

[homer]

I seem to recall Melvin offering Prince a lot of money but nowhere near what he ended up getting. He did the same thing with Sabathia. "Hey we offered him $100 million."

[jerichoholicninja]

15 hours ago, TURBO said:

I don't like him any less than before all this went down, I'm just sad that probably the best pitcher we've ever had will have to be sent packing because we can't pay him.  MLB is broken when it comes to even playing fields, but it is what it is.

Explain how any other current sport's system would have prevented Burnes situation. As one of the best players at the most important position on a team he's going to get absolute top dollar for his services, no matter what league he's playing in. Which means going to free agency. If you want to point to the NFL as a league where teams keep their top players, those players (outside of QB's mostly) are traded or released soon after they sign their deals because teams have more pressing needs for those dollars. Even with QB's these crazy contracts they are getting now are starting to make teams cut corners in other places.

[nate82]

1 hour ago, monty57 said:

It was a while ago, so my memory might be off, but I seem to remember the team offering him an extension (or at least a free agent contract) but like the Sabathia offer, everyone knew it wasn't going to be as big as he'd get elsewhere.

It was a FA contract.  Prince was disappointed after the Braun contract as he never received an offer from the Brewers.

[Thurston Fluff]

2 hours ago, monty57 said:

It was a while ago, so my memory might be off, but I seem to remember the team offering him an extension (or at least a free agent contract) but like the Sabathia offer, everyone knew it wasn't going to be as big as he'd get elsewhere.

The only "complaint" I remember from Prince was in his final pre-arby year, where he wanted more than the Brewers were offering, so they didn't come to an agreement and the Brewers ended up renewing his contract for something like $900k citing a formula they used that showed that was what his final pre-arby year was worth. I think it was kind of a foregone conclusion from there that he was going to play to free agency and leave. They signed the two-year deal you mentioned, but that just gave arbitration certainty, and didn't buy out any free agency years.

Melvin "shopped" him prior to his final season, but was asking for a packaged headlined by two MLB pitchers in return, which at the time I figured was ridiculous as no team who was competing for the playoffs (the only teams that would trade for a guy with one season remaining) would give up two of their MLB starters.

When Melvin couldn't find a trade partner, he changed gears and traded for Grienke and Marcum to go for it in Prince's last season. They had a solid team and made it to the NLCS, where they were beat out by the Dodgers, with the final crushing defeat happening on my birthday. My kids still remind me of it.

Prince always had a "I'm going to prove to the world why I'm worth it" attitude. I recall him referencing the Moneyball "Prince was the one player who was too fat for even Beane and the A's" line as motivation.

I get why you'd have blocked out they lost to the Cardinals that year, but they lost to the Cardinals that year.

[monty57]

20 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

I get why you'd have blocked out they lost to the Cardinals that year, but they lost to the Cardinals that year.

My bad. Got '18 and '11 mixed up. I'm getting old... I was actually at one of those Cardinal games.

[Brock Beauchamp]

26 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

I get why you'd have blocked out they lost to the Cardinals that year, but they lost to the Cardinals that year.

Oh thank god, I thought I was going crazy for a moment there. 

[Thurston Fluff]

3 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Oh thank god, I thought I was going crazy for a moment there. 

I actually looked it up before I posted. Just in case.😉

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

It was a FA contract.  Prince was disappointed after the Braun contract as he never received an offer from the Brewers.

Boras was his agent, so frankly there was zero point in the Brewers offering any sort of contract extension that would've bought out free agent years to begin with.

Boras/Prince did indeed sign a 2 yr deal that took care of Prince's Arby 2 and 3 offseasons before reaching free agency - frankly I don't mind seeing that approach compared to having to take the gloves off with arbitration hearings when both parties know they're parting ways as soon as free agency is reached (or even before that via trade, for that matter).

[Brewcrew82]

6 hours ago, monty57 said:

So I can't say that due to recent events I like players like Woodruff, Adames, Williams, and Urias more than Burnes, but you can say that the owner, GM, scouts, etc. aren't part of the team?

Were the Brewers not the Brewers ten years ago when we had virtually the same ownership group, but completely different players?

I just don't like some of the things Burnes has done this offseason, I don't hate him personally or take issue against all players because one guy said something. Based on the last sentence of yours that I quoted, I think your issues are far deeper.

When you go to games, do you pay to watch ownership? Because I don't...

By that same logic, were the Brewers not still the Brewers in the 1980s when they were owned by different ownership? Meanwhile, what are the constancies? The fanbase, community, etc....

I'm not an Attanasio hater, but there's far more reason to be angry with him and the FO than with Burnes imo. Like trading away an all-star reliever from a first place team in the stretch run...

 

[Jim French Stepstool]

17 hours ago, TURBO said:

 

1. If you go to arbitration, both sides will be saying things to make the other side look bad.  The fact the Brewers had to say things that hurt his feelings is part of the process, which he had to know going in.

 MLB is broken when it comes to even playing fields

1. Does the player/players agent really say anything bad about management during these hearings? It seems to me the system is set up in such a way that one side HAS to be critical to state its' case & the other side simply extolls their own virtues w/o having to be critical.

The last statement above by TURBO is obviously at the root of all this.

[Fear The Chorizo]

22 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

1. Does the player/players agent really say anything bad about management during these hearings? It seems to me the system is set up in such a way that one side HAS to be critical to state its' case & the other side simply extolls their own virtues w/o having to be critical.

The last statement above by TURBO is obviously at the root of all this.

I think it's more along the lines of Burnes' camp extolling how fantastic of a pitcher he is and how he's better than other pitchers in similar stages of their career at arby 2 to justify their requested salary amount, and the Brewers side is more comparing Burnes' stats to that of other great pitchers as they worked through arbitration and then focusing on the stats that likely limit Burnes' arby 2 value to the figure they came up with - namely innings pitched - over a couple year sample size.  

Burnes can interpret selective statistical evaluation as the Brewers devaluing him or blaming him for missing the playoffs, but that's very unlikely to have actually been stated in the hearing.  In terms of limited innings pitched, Burnes better get used to that being something that's focused on by teams pursuing him as a free agent, too.  Don't get me wrong - he's among the very best starting pitchers in baseball...but he won his Cy Young pitching in a 6 man rotation and wasn't quite as dominant having to take the ball every 5th day most of last season.  That's just the truth.

[Brewcrew82]

32 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

 

Burnes can interpret selective statistical evaluation as the Brewers devaluing him or blaming him for missing the playoffs, but that's very unlikely to have actually been stated in the hearing.  In terms of limited innings pitched, Burnes better get used to that being something that's focused on by teams pursuing him as a free agent, too.  Don't get me wrong - he's among the very best starting pitchers in baseball...but he won his Cy Young pitching in a 6 man rotation and wasn't quite as dominant having to take the ball every 5th day most of last season.  That's just the truth.

Since 2020, Burnes is #1 in fWAR/ERA/FIP and #9 in IP (more than Scherzer, DeGrom, Fried etc.). Best pitcher in baseball on a rate basis and also one of the most durable. Teams are going to have very little to pick on, and as a result, he is going to approach the record for a SP contract, if not set it outright. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I think it's more along the lines of Burnes' camp extolling how fantastic of a pitcher he is and how he's better than other pitchers in similar stages of their career at arby 2 to justify their requested salary amount, and the Brewers side is more comparing Burnes' stats to that of other great pitchers as they worked through arbitration and then focusing on the stats that likely limit Burnes' arby 2 value to the figure they came up with - namely innings pitched - over a couple year sample size.  

Burnes can interpret selective statistical evaluation as the Brewers devaluing him or blaming him for missing the playoffs, but that's very unlikely to have actually been stated in the hearing.  In terms of limited innings pitched, Burnes better get used to that being something that's focused on by teams pursuing him as a free agent, too.  Don't get me wrong - he's among the very best starting pitchers in baseball...but he won his Cy Young pitching in a 6 man rotation and wasn't quite as dominant having to take the ball every 5th day most of last season.  That's just the truth.

Yeah, I think it's pretty easy for a player to interpret managements' work in a hearing as being negative, when it's nothing more than stating your case. The player doesn't have to worry about management interpreting their case as being negative towards them, as it really doesn't have to be.

Not to get into a union-management argument, but in arby I think the owners' side has to do a lot more tap-dancing to avoid criticism.

[Fear The Chorizo]

2 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Since 2020, Burnes is #1 in fWAR/ERA/FIP and #9 in IP (more than Scherzer, DeGrom, Fried etc.). Best pitcher in baseball on a rate basis and also one of the most durable. Teams are going to have very little to pick on, and as a result, he is going to approach the record for a SP contract, if not set it outright. 

He's still got two full seasons to pitch, stay healthy, and maintain those rate stats before hitting free agency and potentially setting the market. I hope his dominance continues, but some regression is almost expected.

Burnes' two outright dominant seasons that have him at the top of that 3 year sample size for rate stats were the covid shortened season and the 2021 season in a 6 man rotation where his innings pitched were both limited.  2022 was a really good year with a higher innings load, but it wasn't "best pitcher in baseball" caliber.   Guessing if you'd include his 2019 stats and IP totals for a last 4 year sample size, Burnes might not look as deserving to set a free agent pitcher contract record.  However, if the next two seasons look more like 2021, then yes he will be setting the new pitching market.