UpandIn

Both fangraphs and MLB pipeline grade him as a 60 in the field. He plays SS. I'd say that's elite. Also...again, didn't say he was Adames(who...incidentally was graded as a 50 grade in the field and a 60 arm due to questions about his range...which would provide more credibility to him being more than capable of playing 3B FWIW). AGAIN...I'm talking about the cumulative effect. Turang=Very good defensive SS. Adames-SHOULD be an elite 3B with his hands and his arm...which is obviously very strong. Urias-Clearly best suited to play 2B. So you're probably/possibly downgrading at SS a little bit and you're upgrading at both 3B and 2B. You could be well above average at all 3. They probably won't do it and nobody agrees...so this is probably just a dead subject at this point.

Ok...well, that may be, but the problem is there are VERY few 3B prospects and the MLB ready ones are particularly valuable. But we do have a SS prospect who is an outstanding defensive player. So I'd agree. If you could get a true 3B, a young stud, that'd be preferable. But IF you are going to start Adames, Turang and Urias, I think you maximize their values defensively by slotting them in at 3B, SS and 2B. The logic being Adames hands and arm will play at 3B. Turang is a excellent defensive SS and Urias has been better at 2B than 3B, but with Wong playing primarily 2B the last couple years, he hasn't gotten as much time there. If you add a 3rd player to the mix who's better than the other two, then the equation would change...but I think the best we're going to do at 3B is Brosseau and Jace given who's available in FA and the fact that it would appear we plan on bringing Woodruff and Burnes back(though that was David Stearns who said as much, so that is also subject to change). So it's really about getting your best defense on the field. ---The counter argument is that...we don't know if Adames can play 3rd. I get that. I disagree as I think his skill set translates perfectly(Certainly better than anyone else currently under contract next year). But he still hasn't actually played there in a long time...though he has played some 2B showing he can move around a bit. Additionally, Urias is fine at 3B and the difference between him at 2nd and 3B is negligible. And Turang would be a plus defender at 2B. Those are pretty much the two opposing views on this. Oh, also, Adames is going to be a FA in 2 years and would lose value at 3B. Though...again, I don't agree with that as I don't think teams are going to value him less and assume that he can no longer play 3B by the time he's 29. If anything, I think his versatility would help him out. But I understand that POV, Shortstops tend to be more valuable. But how much more valuable will they be when you introduce the new shift and the 3B is expected to cover even more ground than he has before the shift was regulated? I THINK we'd all be in agreement that bringing in a guy like...Josh Jung would be preferable.

Ok...well, that may be, but the problem is there are VERY few 3B prospects and the MLB ready ones are particularly valuable. But we do have a SS prospect who is an outstanding defensive player. So I'd agree. If you could get a true 3B, a young stud, that'd be preferable. But IF you are going to start Adames, Turang and Urias, I think you maximize their values defensively by slotting them in at 3B, SS and 2B. The logic being Adames hands and arm will play at 3B. Turang is a excellent defensive SS and Urias has been better at 2B than 3B, but with Wong playing primarily 2B the last couple years, he hasn't gotten as much time there. If you add a 3rd player to the mix who's better than the other two, then the equation would change...but I think the best we're going to do at 3B is Brosseau and Jace given who's available in FA and the fact that it would appear we plan on bringing Woodruff and Burnes back(though that was David Stearns who said as much, so that is also subject to change). So it's really about getting your best defense on the field. ---The counter argument is that...we don't know if Adames can play 3rd. I get that. I disagree as I think his skill set translates perfectly(Certainly better than anyone else currently under contract next year). But he still hasn't actually played there in a long time...though he has played some 2B showing he can move around a bit. Additionally, Urias is fine at 3B and the difference between him at 2nd and 3B is negligible. And Turang would be a plus defender at 2B. Those are pretty much the two opposing views on this. Oh, also, Adames is going to be a FA in 2 years and would lose value at 3B. Though...again, I don't agree with that as I don't think teams are going to value him less and assume that he can no longer play 3B by the time he's 29. If anything, I think his versatility would help him out. But I understand that POV, Shortstops tend to be more valuable. But how much more valuable will they be when you introduce the new shift and the 3B is expected to cover even more ground than he has before the shift was regulated? I THINK we'd all be in agreement that bringing in a guy like...Josh Jung would be preferable.

....and where did I suggest otherwise?

....and where did I suggest otherwise?

You can...but we haven't.

You can...but we haven't.

Yes-yes-yes. I just do not get this. We're treating ptichers that we're basically pampering(smartly so) like their NFL Running Backs. The record just does not bear this out. And there's always injury risks. If he needs Tommy John, that'd suck. But you lose him for 15 months and they usually come back stronger than before. I'd also like to add when people say we've "only" produced Burnes and Woodruff, we also produced Jimmy Nelson(just fluke injury) he was a borderline ace, Freddy Peralta, we helped Lauer become a much better version of himself, Devin Williams, Adrian Houser's sinker was one of the best pitches in baseball last year and Andy Ashby has TOR type stuff.

Yes-yes-yes. I just do not get this. We're treating ptichers that we're basically pampering(smartly so) like their NFL Running Backs. The record just does not bear this out. And there's always injury risks. If he needs Tommy John, that'd suck. But you lose him for 15 months and they usually come back stronger than before. I'd also like to add when people say we've "only" produced Burnes and Woodruff, we also produced Jimmy Nelson(just fluke injury) he was a borderline ace, Freddy Peralta, we helped Lauer become a much better version of himself, Devin Williams, Adrian Houser's sinker was one of the best pitches in baseball last year and Andy Ashby has TOR type stuff.

Baltimore is not doing that. That's 2 top 15 prospects, a top ~75 and then a pitcher Baltimore would be selling low on who could become an ace. And where is Urias playing for them? They don't want him to play SS and Gunnar is their 3B. Eduardo Garcia and Hedbert Perez aren't moving the needle for them. Those are a couple lottery tickets. And I don't care if it's the AL or NL. The Brewers need the most talent they can get. You don't worry about facing one pitcher when making a trade like this. Tell me this, are YOU trading 24 years of; -The #1 pitching prospect who has a legit 3 pitch combo that are all plus pitches with a plus-plus FB that hits 102, a slider that's a plus pitch, a change that's a plus-plus pitch and who has outstanding command...coming off a year he dominated at AAA; -The #2 pick in this past draft who's arleady the 13th overall rated prospect -A 3B prospect who's offensive profile is similar to Joey Wiemer who draws a ton of walks and who hits for a lot of power(while not striking out too much). -A LHP prospect who's stock is down a bit, but who projects to be a late inning reliever IF he can't stay healthy and develop into a TOR starter(Which is still very possible FOR 1-Corbin Burnes-Obviously the stud. Cy Young winner, but 2 years of team control. His virtues are self evident,. 2-Luis Urias-Who doesn't have a role on this Baltimore team and ....kinda feels like he was included because his brother plays for Baltimore. AT BEST he replaces Mateo at SS...coming off a 2.3 WAR season while Mateo is coming off a 2.8 WAR season, is cheaper and...already on their roster. 3-Hedbert Perez -A prospect that had a lot of helium last year, but coming off a year in A ball in which he hit .216/272/.393 and already isn't a great defender and doesn't have great speed. 4-Eduardo Garcia...a player the Brewers will likely leave unprotected for the rule 5 draft this year and Baltimore could have for free. Actually...lets turn this around. The Brewers offer Jackson Chourio, Sal Frelick, Joey Wiemer, and Misiorowski FOR....lets say Nolan Arenado, but we get him for 2 years, we only have to pay him 30M for those two years and then we get a Rule 5 eligible player, two minor league prospects who aren't top 350 prospects, and then an MLB ready player, but one who....really doesn't fit our lineup? That Brewers package is not as strong as the Baltimore package you proposed and you have to pretend with Arenado in order to make it work, but assume you only get 2 years for him. Would you make that trade? Again, all for starting with Grayson Rodriguez as the starting point for Burnes. I just think Baltimore probably says they don't want to make that trade straight up given that their window is JUST starting to open, much less two more premier prospects for Burnes and very little else.

That was just...too long of a post. The Packers have all the talent they need. They just need to get it healthy, they need their coaches to put them in the right situations and they need to play complimentary football. Play to their players strengths. That means when you have a rookie who was #1 in press man coverage just a year ago, you put him in press more often. Hell, here's a novel idea, you can play press and NOT play man. This crazy idea of...confusing defenses. Quay Walker is basically what Isiah Simmons was supposed to be coming out of College in terms of his athletic ability. Faster 3 cone than Jaire Alexander. So put him in the slot, preferably outside of Gary at times...and then send him so Gary has a more advantageous matchup and you can drop him. Make the Offense guess. On offense, Aaron Jones : Give this man the damn ball. Get the offensive line healthy and hopefully the WRers and this team still has a chance. Also, don't use Jones and Dillon interchangeably. They're not interchangeable. We wanted them to be. Kylin Hill is closer to Aaron Jones. Hopefully he's healthy and he can take some of the reps so you don't wear Jones out, but Dillon needs to be used on come power schemes, not outside zone plays. It's not where he has success. And someone light a fire under their asses. I still think the talent is there, the creative play calling is stifled with the pourus OL, but maybe you take a note from NE and you play Caleb Jones or Rasheed Walker as a 6th OL at times if/when Lazard/Doubs and Watson can get on the field. Make the defense come up with a 5 man front and play 8 in the box and create some one on one matchup's for Watson or Doubs? Just...do something different than what you've been doing.

I think this is a little prisoner of the moment view. They really didn't burn a lot of draft capital on Love and Degurara. They moved a 4th round pick to move up for Love. That's been questioned to death, but...I think because he ended up in GB, it gets kinda mixed with the Aaron Rodgers reaction. Deguara is a nice player though. Lost a year of development to a torn ACL and I think he should be incorporated into the passing game more, but they need to use him to stay in and block too much when he is out there. 2018-You get a cornerstone CB...that was your biggest need. Josh Jackson did become a bust...one of the times Gutey went away from RAS because it was seen as such a great value. He was mocked to the Packers in the 1st round. 3-Burks He obviously wasn't a hit, but he became one of the few STs standouts. Moore was terrible, but MVS was a huge hit in the 5th and I think EQ would have had more success elsewhere. He's actually looked really good in Chicago. Probably a guy we should have brought back with his run blocking and speed. JK Scott looked good for stretches(game winning punts as Rodgers put it)...but he always seemed to peter out. 2019-This was a...great draft IMO. Gary-Another cornerstone player at a key position Jenkins-Right now he looks like an average OL, but he was an instant starter and pro-bowler early on. Savage was good as a rookie, really good his 2nd year and he has not been nearly as good since then. That's on Joe Barry IMO. Savage was supposed to play in more of a press man scheme, not in this quarters scheme where he's asked to come up and play the run. Still, he's gotten worse. I don't know how to grade that. He drafted a guy who started off well, then looked like a budding star...and now looks like a weakness. This was supposed to be a bounce back year. But, again, I put that on the scheme AND Savage. I think he'll end up elsewhere and be a Micah Hyde type player like he was supposed to be in GB. Sternberger looked terrible. Keke looked like a steal in the 5th round, but...has anyone figured out what happened? After a bit of a surprising cut, he was then cut from the Texans without playing...and it's obviously not due to talent. Then you got some contributions from 6th-7th round picks. 2020- Love-It'll take a while to figure out what we got there. I'll put that as a negative just because of all the ripple effects it caused. AJ Dillon-Another guy who's gotten worse this year, but who was one of the top rated RBs overall per PFF last year. Deguara-As I said, I like him, but he's been through the ACL and then the OL issues which force him to stay in and help when he does get on the field. Runyan though, that's a home run, a 6th round pick as a starter? Garvin is a contributor. 2021-Stokes- Again, I think we're talking about scheme not fitting the players. He was the top rated corner in press man coverage last year...he played exceptional last year. This year he's having a Soph slump, but is that because of him or because of the scheme? -Myers I love this pick, but they need stability around him. You see how dominant he can be at times, but he is inconsistent. Missing most of last year hurt. -Amari Rodgers-I don't know what's going on here. When we draft WRers, they should come with an *. He looked just bad last year. This year he's still not consistent enough by a long shot as a PRer, but he looks much-much quicker and more explosive. I just don't think Rodgers(Aaron) likes or trusts him. -Newman -I don't agree he's trending down. He's a 4th round pick who's not a good starter early into his 2nd year, but...who's been more valuable that's been available? He was the 36th pick in the 4th round, so expectations come into play. -TJ Slaton in the 5th was a big steal. -Jean-Charles I can't really evaluate at this point. -Van Lannen didn't make the team, but we recouped the pick. -McDuffie another incomplete, but he's definitely taken a huge step this year. -Kylin Hill-I think he's got a chance to be the steal of this draft. I think he's got a very real chance to step in and take over for Aaron Jones next year IF he can come back at full strength. I think the whole team has been out of whack this year. I think Mark Murphy's meddling has been troublesome. Talking LaFleur into keeping Pettine, low balling Rizzi, I think he was a big factor behind the Joe Barry hire(actually, I don't know that, that's just been reported by some sites). Basically, he's been too involved in Football decisions when traditionally, there has been a CLEAR separation of duties. GM has final say over the Football operations, President over the Business side. He changed that structure a few years ago and it's very clearly hurt us. Another thing to factor on the number of hits that Gutey has had is that he stockpiles and trades back in the 6th and 7th rounds and we end up with a LOT of picks there. When you get a starter in the 5th round or later, one who's an average starter, that's a great pick. If you cut a guy...oh well. Especially when you seem to have 5-6 a year. Defensively, he's drafted athletes who are better in man coverage and rushing the passer and then we hire a GM who wants to sit back and play zone. There's a disconnect there. I love the Badgers, but I'd almost be fine if the Badgers were to hire someone other than Leonhard and the Packers offer him the job again! The Packers have the personnel to run that scheme and the Badgers do NOT. Of course that's not going to happen, but they need a change at DC. Barry was just a bad hire. Last year MLF had to push him to be more aggressive, and we saw the defense improve, but...this year again...same ****. And we're not confusing ANYONE as I said in a prior post. Remember when the Vikings used to bring up Barr and Kendricks and mug the A Gaps? They did that because...they had ATHLETIC and LONG LBers who could get back into the hook zone if they didn't come and the OL had to account for them creating 1 on 1 matchup's across the board. Tell me Jaire, Stokes(again, the #1 press man corner last year as a rookie per PFF) and Douglas(not great in man, but good enough) and Nixon(who's at the very least a sure tackler and keeps LBers and backs in front of him) doesn't fit that scheme? Throw in Amos, the #1 rated Safety in pass coverage from 2018-2021 again, per PFF and Savage...who was a CB...and it's obvious what we should be doing. I'd also disagree that we've only averaged 2 starters per draft. We got 12 in his first 4 drafts and some pretty good depth pieces...plus guys like Dillon who'd normally be a starter(And effectively is) and then good depth pieces later in the draft...and I also think you need to be cognizant of the UDFAs. We've cut some draft picks in favor of UDFAs. Just like with MLF, I think the worst time to evaluate Gutekunst right now is when they've lost more games in a ROW than they'd lost in a single season the last 3 years. And it's WAAY too premature to judge the 2022 draft, but I feel pretty confident at this point that Quay Walker is going to be an enormous difference maker. Even better in the right scheme. I think Wyatt needs more snaps now as we're just not getting any penetration on the DL(Clark is once again coming off a great start and then goes into a lull in the middle of the year and then turns it back up the last couple months). But Wyatt has looked really impressive...they've just been really limited reps...but when he beats a guy, he beats them BADLY. -Watson is the definition of boom or bust. He is just a different type of athlete on the field. Now he needs to stay on the field and that needs to translate. -Rhyan-Again, premature, but he looks like another less than encouraging 3rd round pick. Great in a power scheme, terrible at picking up stunts and just isn't aware enough to play despite being far more physically ready than Zach Tom. -Tom looks like he could be a future star, but needs to add weight. -Doubs looks like a hit. -Enagbare-He looks like a HUGE steal at the end of the 5th round. -Carpenter- Getting Oren Burks vibes from him. I don't know he'll have a role as in this base defense, but a nice special teamer. -Ford -I thought Heflin and Slayton looked better. -Toure -Rodgers is signing his praises...and I think that means something. He's got that slippery route running style that we desperately need. -Rasheed Walker Massive upside. Could be our starting RT for a decade...could eat himself out of the league. Absolutely no idea. -Caleb Jones is pretty much in the Walker group as an UDFA. I still haven't heard why he's been on the NFI list and I'm skeptical you can trust him to stay in shape, but I think if he were healthy...he'd be playing right now(at least when Bakh went out and Yosh kicked over to RT). I think a year ago at this time we were mostly praising Gutekunst's draft(save for the Love pick when we passed on Tee Higgins)...maybe giving him a bit too much credit and now at this point, with a disjointed team and expectations so high, I think we're being a little rough on him. At the end of the day though...whatever the problem is, if it IS the drafts or the coaching, they need to figure it out real quick. They've put a ton of resources into this secondary and our safeties have come out and played poorly to start the year. Our CBs(Stokes in particular) has been bad to the point where he was actually benched. Quay Walker and DeVondre Campbell are in the same spots virtually every play(what happened to Walker lining up as an edge at times and rushing the passer? His ability to do that was supposed to be part of the reason we spent the 22nd pick on him). Rookie LBers tend to struggle if they're thinking too much instead of playing downhill. They need to get him on more run blitzes, coming off the corner, hell, he can even play slot. The pass rush is among the best in the NFL at creating pressure. The secondary, the strength of the team...what was supposed to be the best in the NFL heading into this season has NOT been good. Make the move now, give Grey the DC job and at least try to salvage the season.

Serge has looked better as well. Not 2020 Serge, but he's moving well, he's contesting. People were scratching their heads about why we'd pick him up, but he's providing nice depth and allowing them to not have to ask too much out of Lopez. I'd like to see Serge get 5 more MPG and Brook get 5 fewer. Just to keep Brook fresh, but he does look good. A problem for tomorrow, but I am curious what they're going to do with Middleton and Lopez contracts. Middleton has talked about possibly opting out (likely because they couldn't reach an extension...just the benign "I know it's a business talk.") And I wonder if they locked up Portis knowing they'd likely lose Lopez. It's just so much money to keep him. I think this year if you took his salary away, it'd a ~57M savings. But this team does NOT seem worried about pinching pennies...so that's nice. Have to imagine the Greek Freak is helping them generate a lot of revenue and making them a global team.

What I was saying is that I thought you could pick it up and then trade him. He's been worth between 5 and 5.9 WAR the past two years(fWar, bWar respectively). So looking at the 2B market(and an overall thin market at both 2B and 3B) I thougth...he'd likely get a deal worth 2-3 years AAV or ~8M. So one year for 10M should be a good deal for a team in need of a 2B. And you might get back a player who's going to be non-tendered that is worth a flier on. Some 28 year old reliever with big velo who just hasn't hit yet. Maybe the Dodgers if they lose Turner or...IDK who. But as I explained, I'm starting to think that is just too much of a risk. You could end up being stuck with that and while that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, I'd rather retain Brosseau, Jace Peterson and give time to Brice Turang. So primarily put up SOME combination of Urias, Adames, Turang and Peterson with Brosseau kinda playing all over. 1B/2B/3B. SS or DH in a pinch if you're facing a lefty. I also do NOT believe you need 3000 innings. You're talking about way too large of a sample size at this point before determining a players skills are eroding. For a 21 year old, sure. For a diminutive 32 year old? No.

I...I don't know what type of baseball you grew up playing, but we DEFINITELY did not "hide" our our defender at 2B. But fine, lets go with that. It's to the left of SS. Turang is an elite defensive SS. Ergo, it's a BIT of a waste. Also, again, do people remember when we moved TRAVIS SHAW to 2B and he performed well?

I...I don't know what type of baseball you grew up playing, but we DEFINITELY did not "hide" our our defender at 2B. But fine, lets go with that. It's to the left of SS. Turang is an elite defensive SS. Ergo, it's a BIT of a waste. Also, again, do people remember when we moved TRAVIS SHAW to 2B and he performed well?

Deal. Send the papers to the league office, Burnes can write the "thank you to the fans of Milwaukee" goodbye, we could talk about the talent and our financial resources, piss off fans who don't care about prospects and then re-sign Woody and win the '25 WS when Grayson approximates deGrom level of dominance.

Nope. I wouldn't trade Grayson for Burnes if it were the other way around, but it's not. Burnes is a Brewer, a Cy Young winner and 28. Gotta start with their top pitching prospect. I've consistently gone back to the Dodgers because they've got 2-3 pitching prospects who can throw in the upper 90s, plus we should be able to get a corner IFer with some upside. Obviously I'd aim for the moon, but I'd take a really good corner IF prospect, AA or above and then 2-3 power arms(which is why I keep going back to the Dodgers). Vargas, Miller, Pepiot and maybe a guy like Frasso. -Totally ridiculous scenario, but hypothetically, Burnes+Woodruff+Williams for your pick of 8 prospects from the Dodgers or Baltimore farm systems...and maybe Renfroe since Baltimore would need a RFer. Not gonna happen, but...you'd have to do that, right? That haul, but the ROY picks we'd likely get for a few of them(top 3 in ROY voting) and you'd have the #1 farm system running away, a team loaded with young talent and a full 6 year window...but you'd probably win 75 games next year. Not meant to be taken serious, just a random thought that popped into my head.

Yeah, I don't believe there's any chance that trade happens unless ATL is just dumping payroll...in which case, they could probably get an actual prospect back. The trade simulator puts roughly the same value on Taylor as it does on Wiemer. The Braves would probably do one. The Brewers would almost certainly not do the other. I like Taylor, but he seems like Wiemer's floor at this point. ~.220/.280 with some power and solid CF defense? You could get that but with better speed and a better arm from Wiemer(and that's assuming Wiemer is a disappointment).

Yeah, I don't believe there's any chance that trade happens unless ATL is just dumping payroll...in which case, they could probably get an actual prospect back. The trade simulator puts roughly the same value on Taylor as it does on Wiemer. The Braves would probably do one. The Brewers would almost certainly not do the other. I like Taylor, but he seems like Wiemer's floor at this point. ~.220/.280 with some power and solid CF defense? You could get that but with better speed and a better arm from Wiemer(and that's assuming Wiemer is a disappointment).

And...just to be clear, I didn't say they shouldn't pick it up or they should. I said it'd be risky. I argued FOR picking up the option...as opposed to most on the forum, just simply that I didn't think they would.

OAA. 2018 6 2019 3 2020 0 2021 2022 -9 (FWIW, Fangraphs also shows Wong's defense declining each year since 2018). Just as it says in the Athletic's piece.

I agree with most of what you said...but the Packers WRers are not all 4.4 or better. Lazard is clearly not. Watkins looks even slower at this point than Lazard. Doubs has good enough speed, but he's not a 4.4 guy. Amari Rodgers was a 4.52 Watson runs a 4.4 and Toure runs a 4.43 and those are the only two who are legit 4.4 guys. They did offer a 2nd for Claypool, it just wasn't as good as the Bears 2nd. They gave in, gave up their own and...got Claypool. Just like with Mack, the Bears sucking allowed them to get the player they were targeting. Also, Amari played in the ACC, but your point is still taken. He's looked good in very limited snaps. I really like this group as I said, it's just a year away most likely...or at least a Jerry Jeudy or DJ Moore would have been HUGE for them. The good news, Rodgers isn't going to retire on an 9-8 team that loses in the WC round(IMO, maybe he will). And we should see a LOT of big improvements. And the Cap is going to go up a LOT in the next few years, so that should mitigate some of the hand wringing being in "cap hell." Also, if Jim Leonhard doesn't get the UW job, he should be the GBP DC. his pressures are far more exotic and he plays to the strengths of this defense. Finally, I think the talent is still there to go on a run, they just need guys to get healthy, stay healthy and build some continuity.

Rodgers is gonna retire if they trade him(obviously my opinion). If-IF Rodgers comes back, it'll be because he went through this year, the growing pains. I'd object to the idea that Gutey hasn't drafted well. I think he has...mostly. A large part of it is incomplete. I think this class is going to be his best(though Rhyan looks like a bust already). Walker and Wyatt are both freak athletes who make make plays 99% of MLBers and IDL just can't. But they're raw. Walker in particular is going to be a stud in a couple years. Watson has all kinda of issues right now, but I still love his long term...prognosis. Maybe he never stays on the field, maybe this is just a fluke start where he has CMIII type issues with the Hammy, but he is about as electric as it gets in an...insanely small sample size. Mainly I think this team is deep, I think it's talented but you have foundational flaws. -OL Maybe you can win with a shite OL if you've got a young QB like Watson, Mahomes, Herbert, Wilson...not with a 38 year old stationary one. Bakh-GREAT when he plays. Took Von out of the game. Is he playing next week? Was the missed game vs the *** a fluke or new normal? Will he just get stronger or are we at the bone on bone point where that injury shaved 4-5 years off his career? Tom could be a great replacement...but he's just not strong enough yet. Jenkins-The backbone of this line after Bakh went down. Someone we said was a top 10-15 OL. Unlike Bakh, he has not been good since he's been healthy and last week, he wasn't able to play again. It's just like groundhogs day as this is half the problem with this team. It has a trickle down effect. Get them on the same page and healthy and the whole and you can stay ahead of the sticks. Lots of 2nd and 3's, give Rodgers time for his WRers to uncover, fewer penalties. Then the defense isn't on the field for 35 of 50 minutes after the first 10 minutes where they just sit back in coverage and hope a gimpy Gary, Preston and then Clark and whoever is the 2nd DT can get a pass rush. -WR Self explanatory....but still. -Cobb is smart(even looked explosive after the catch). -Watkins looks washed. No burst. -Rodgers can't be the PR, but he should get a shot. -Doubs-He looks promising -Watson-Developmental but maybe he can be a deep threat, gadget guy. Rodgers said him going down fundamentally changed their game plan as he figured in heavily. -Toure I think he MIGHT just be that slippery WRer we need, but he won't be this year. I like the idea of Doubs, Watson, Lazard, Tonyan, Toure and....MAYBE Rodgers moving forward, but they haven't gotten in sync yet. -Joe Barry He's uninspired, if we blitz, you know where it's coming from. Quay Walker from the LB position. You don't overload the side opposite of Gary and then drop to try and create a mis-match, you don't bring Jaire off the slot. I know what defense they're running pre-snap 70% of time,,,so you're not fooling an NFL QB. This is still the best roster I've seen 1-53 in a while, but the holes are too important and big right now. It's like those Charger teams that were always loaded with talent, but were 12-4 on year and 8-8 the next. You need talent at the right spots AND good coordinators. Also...who are we trading Rodgers to at this point? SF? I'd actually do that for Lance, but I doubt they'd do it at this point. At BEST you get 2 years. This actually feels like the team Favre said was the most talented toward the end of his career, the one that as they matured, they ended up winning a SB. But just too many question marks at BIG areas. I

Yes....and no. In that order! I love their defense this year. Carter is a stud on D. Beauchamp is probably their best on ball defender. Giannis is...Giannis. Even Nwora looks respectable(ish) defensively. More importantly, I really like their defensive scheme.