BrewerFan

Yes...and then extended him a year. The author is saying you don't want to go into a QBs final year with him NOT under contract further and that's...just silly.

No, you listed veterans who we'd save money on if we traded them(while omitting veterans who could be traded re; money saved in a trade). Everyone was talking about Douglas being on the trade block.

Don't buy that Rodgers played better because of Love. Also don't buy it's possible to know how good Love is with this slop he's playing with. And it's nobody in particular(I heard Walker had a poor game, but missed my first game in ~25 years Sunday).

Who are the "people" that "continue to discount YOUR argument for the importance of a "high-performing,"(not the same as figuring out if a QB is a HOF caliber QB his first year as a starter). Ok...if that's your question, I'd say it's a much better one than "is he a HOF caliber QB." Jalen Hurts just got them to a SB and was play away from winning one(he's not a HOF caliber QB in your mind). Brock Purdy is the QB of arguably the best team in the NFL right now. Jimmy G has been to multiple SBs. You're looking for an answer to a question...which has changed now, that's virtually impossible to answer at this point in a players career. Was Aaron Rodgers a "HOF caliber QB," after his 6-10 season? Finally...as I get ready to leave for the weekend, I'd recommend you read this entire thread and look at All22 if you're going to come to this conclusion one way or another based on the information we have at hand; It's far more than the one picture. Be back on Sunday/Monday.

And yet he's making 51M a year, was the highest paid QB ever when he signed his 250M+ deal. So...if he wins that SB, then he's a likely HOF QB? Is Russell Wilson? Because he was carried to the SB by his defenses. Well, I said nothing about being on a rookie deal and I don't think he's the best QB ever. That makes this nebulous "If he a HOF QB," a year into starting that much more of a moving target. Brady, also carried by his defense in his first couple SBs and they were paying Drew Bledsoe(I think he was the 2nd 100M dollar player in the NFL). So that kinda shoots down two points. I don't think this helps the "College stats" argument. He couldn't start over a string of non-NFL QBs like Cardale Jones, JT Barrett...then after 3 years(which was Love's entire career) he transferred to LSU has Chase, and Jefferson(arguably the top 2 WRers in the NFL right now) as well as Fournette...and he had one year in which he cracks your threshold. If that doesn't prove College States are totally useless in this context, I don't know what would.

If you click on it, it shows a LOT more than just this one play. It shows the Defense in Cover4 and the communication isn't there for the QB and WRer to run a quick out(Love looks like he's ready to throw, but they're just running into coverage). There are others as well. Certainly, some of it is Love's fault, but we thought we were giving him a lot of help and then Jones gets hurt in week 1, Bakh is done after 1, and Watson in and out. Musgrave has taken a couple of BIG shots leading to missed time.

Yes. No question. My only concern is the industry scrutiny on Acuna Jr and the Julio Rodriguez deal may make this worse, but each player is different. But yes, 100%. The only thing I'd do is go 8 years with 2 option years. 8/120, 2 option years at 25M. MVP, GG, HR Champ-type incentives that would increase his future salaries. I think this is almost always the way to go and they should be talking with Contreras right now(just signing a guy doesn't lock you into keeping him). Frelick, Uribe are others I would extend(at grossly different numbers). So I always like this idea. But it's different with a 19-year-old CF prospect who has produced like he has as he's climbed up to AAA before 20.

Is the "we'll see how they do in the big market," not ALWAYS levied at a Milwaukee Star...and when they end up in a big market, they almost always seem to be embraced and have success? I don't see a reasonable argument that Counsell can manage a bad team, but now when the really hard questions and higher expectations come, he'll just crumble. This isn't "Soup pitched well tonight," he's pretty open and upfront when it comes to his team's shortcomings and his own team's shortcomings. Why do we think Boone is fine in that regard, but Counsell will...what, collapse under the pressure? Seems unlikely.

Well...you're not breaking it to me, I'm saying Eli was NOT a HOF caliber QB, he'll get in because he won 2 SBs...but they didn't win 2 SBs because he was a great QB. Big Ben...perhaps, but it still took elite complimentary FB to get him to the SB and give them a chance and then they just kinda limped along the rest of his career. Matt Ryan's career will likely not be a HOF career due to a 28-3 lead lost. Brady for the last 4 SB wins and second half of his career, sure. Hurts I don't think is a HOF caliber QB. As for his College States, he started as a True Freshman, had an ELITE year as a Soph and then it's well documented what happened his 3rd year. Again, Joe Burrow failed in College save for one year. If Love's Soph year would have been his Jr, there wouldn't have been those "questions." Who is the ONE QB that to a fan, GM, coach...WR-Virtually EVERYONE in the NFL would take? Mahomes. Remember how bad the Buccs made Mahomes look in the Super Bowl? So I guess I'll just say I don't know how to quantify HOF caliber QB at this point in a career SAVE for the uber-rare Mahomes-type talents. Look at Jalen Hurts first 7 stats. They were every bit as bad as Love's and he had significantly bigger questions about his passing ability. I'm more concerned with if you can win a SB with this guy. And I've seen enough good things that I think you can-IF you've got the foundation in place. I'm not completely sold in that position, I still need to see more growth, but he also needs more help. That 40-yard backshoulder he threw to Doubs to start the 2nd half vs Denver was as good as ALMOST any throw Aaron Rodgers made. He beat Cover2 by not putting much under it and couldn't have walked it there better and it hit both hands and we couldn't come up with it. So what would Aaron Rodgers and the 6-10 Packers have been HIS first year without a good OL and then Jennings, Driver, established veteran recievers and instead a terrible OL and say Davante in year2, Nelson in yr 2, Driver in yr 2, pretty much every WRer we've had has taken a couple years to develop. And then referencing the Mahomes 31-9 loss in the Super Bowl, how can you reasonably expect Love to have success when you've got an awful OL...and I've been pounding this drum since Rodgers and Billy Turner's PFF grades, but he made them "grade higher," because they had much lower pass rush win/loss rates because he got the ball out so damn fast. Now we're throwing the ball downfield more than anyone with a weak OL. I did think this OL would be much better because we'd have our pass-blocking AP LT back, but we didn't. I just don't know if it's possible to determine if Love is that guy in a season where you've got poor OL play, can't run the ball(this entire offense is predicated off getting big plays off play action and nobody cares about PA when you can't run) and your #1 WRer is in and out of the lineup. Your PB RB is in and out, your TE, that shiny new weapon, he's been in and out. I agreed with moving off Rodgers, it was time, but I remember saying...Love's best years will probably look closer to Rodgers worst. I think it's possible we have unrealistic expectations and it'd be wise to let this play out through next year and try to develop this offense with-the-caveat that Williams is the guy you take irrespective of how you look the rest of the year and Maye is worth considering, but you only take those guys if they come to you, but this strategy of "If they're not HOF caliber, you move on," you end up being the Bears/.Browns. Really good QB play can win your SB and then those QBs become HOF caliber long after people dismissed them. Brees, Warner, Young, there's a lot that comes to mind. Now, I'm just never going to be compelled by the College Stats. It's a totally different game. https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/love-led-nation-in-ints-heres-why-to-not-worry

The Reds can still sign him for 250K without it counting against their pool, correct? So if they go over 250K, does that then get added to the previous years pool and then the penalties applied or would that count against their future pool? I was of the belief that you were just strictly limited to 250K, but I don't know that to be the case.

He had the best record in 1 run games ever...at least at one point this season. It was better than Earl Weaver. I think that's pretty telling. And he was consistently year over year well above the league average in that area. I'd say that argues he's a good manager. There aren't many that can quantify wins and losses. Bobby Cox the Cleveland manager Hargrove or Davey Johnson(but primarily Cox) kinda show the volatility in post-season Baseball IMO.

I'm not happy losing to Marquette...don't get it twisted, but once March comes, I'm pulling for Marquette...after Wisconsin obviously. I just...never got into the whole UW-Marquette thing.

It's just a respite from the real world. I have a little cousin with stage 4 bone cancer(2nd cousin actually, she was 5 when her father and my best friend died from the same type of cancer). I have a 1st cousin on the other side who has had open-heart surgery with 4 young kids(she's fine, it was planned, but it's still a significant issue and scary as hell). I love watching the Brewers, the Bucks, the Packers play well. I care, but...this whole, "he was never really one of us," or how he'd somehow be a dishonest person if he watched someone else manage the Brewers? LOL...that I could not care less about. And even when they lose, I generally feel number for a while and then I just think, "eh, this is gonna suck to hear about on Twitter." But this should all really be a part of your life, not a central focus of it.

I think Caminero can play SS, I just don't think they were planning on him playing there until the whole Franco thing happened. In any event, this is about the Brewers moves, so if it's Caminero, Mead, Williams...they're likely not trading for Adames, right? That feels like it's more the takeaway.

I think this is the best...run down of Jordan Love I've seen so far. I'll just say I flatly disagree with the premise that you have to decide on signing him by the end of this year. I'd rather wait until his final year or when he's due to be a FA than overpay him. But setting that aside...it's a good read; https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/10/25/23931156/jordan-love-green-bay-packers-offense-contract-dilemma

LOL...my apologies!

The Rays have a top 5 prospect and Mead to play SS. I don't think they're trading for a year of Willy. The Rays are likely trading Glasnow, but...I doubt they're in the market for a SS. I also have no clue what's going on with Franco. I haven't paid attention to that story at all, but even assuming he's done, I think they're fine there.

LOL...if he leaves after 9 years, it means he was lying and didn't really want to win a WS in Milwaukee, his words mean nothing and he was never "one of us?" He won't lose any respect from me. He was here for 9 years and if he decides he wants to play in New York(Where you've already got him signing as this is a mere formality) I'll still consider him "one of us," as he's lived here longer than I've been alive and he's...also a grown man who's earned the right to make that decision.

Yeah, winning SBs makes you a HOF caliber QB and Brady has also won 7 of them(and he wasn't HOF caliber the first several few when he needed Bledsoe to come into the AFCCG or was holding the Rams to 17 points, beating the Raiders with the Tuck rule). Brock Purdy would be my response to this general line of thinking. Or Jalen Hurts, but he's probably on his way to becoming a HOF-caliber caliber QB. The point is, a HOF QBs, they end up in the HOF as often because of the time because of team success. You're including 3 Manning runs in there, 2 by Eli who isn't a HOF caliber QB if not for two great defensive lines by his teams and Peyton when he didn't even start most of the year he won his last SB. But yeah, I said if Williams, you draft the QB. I've said as much about Williams since before Love took over. And everyone else knows who and what Caleb Williams is, so it seems unlikely that, A-we're going to pass up the Bears and Panthers in the "race" for Williams(I'd also include the Cards and a couple other teams in that group). And if it comes to trading up, you're most likely trading away massive draft capital, even if you're sitting at #5. The group of QBs that make you a SB caliber team just by virtue of their presence on a team is exceedingly small and we just had one for 15 years, but lost to inferior QBs regularly because...we didn't have that complimentary FB. We didn't have the defense or running games when Rodgers was losing to Wilson's who had a top defense 4 out of 5 years(#2 the other year) or Kaepernick/Jimmy G who had dominant defenses. As for College stats, I couldn't be less interested in what a QB did in College statistically. Josh Allen and Joe Burrow had a combined 1 year meeting your threshold as starting QBs and they're both QBs pretty obviously on their way to HOF careers. How they play, sure, but their stats? Case Keenum would be the greatest QB of all time if College States told you anything and June Jones would be the NFL version of Mike D'Antoni. If Jordan Love had gone to OSU, he probably have completed 70% of his passes and that wouldn't mean anything to me either.

"None other than Vrable!" LOL...that was a build-up but I'm not sure what! It sounds like Jim Garrison talking about the Grassy Knoll. But sure, it's Vrable. I'm not sure if that's a problem, part of the problem, or not. I don't have the first clue if this is WRers and their inexperience or poor coaching. It feels like when you have a good position group, that position coach is really good, when you have a bad one, they're bad. Was Edgar Bennett a great WR coach? I have no idea. I know people wanted Adams cut going into his 3rd year, so...I have no idea how to even begin to quantify how to divide up the blame, coach, players, youth, and natural progression...maybe Love called the play wrong. Maybe a WR broke off a route or is trying to get into an open area in the zone. I have no clue who's at fault here. Maybe you bring back Edgar? Or....I don't know. That's all beyond the purview of a fan IMO.

Sure. Your supporting cast can make you or break you. For an established ELITE QB, they can overcome it to some degree, but not to this degree and we don't have an established QB. As for Fashanu...yeah, it looks like he'll be gone. He could go...I guess as high as 2nd, but I don't think Chicago would take another OT, I think they'd trade the pick for a QB and would be more likely to take an Edge(Latu and or Verse could go). Maye, Harrison, and it's entirely possible a couple QBs go earlier. I wouldn't take him, but McCarthy could go(if for instance the Vikings ended up picking ahead of us...or NE). Pennix, Ewers. Or a couple could go back to school. But as of now, we should be in a position to get at least one of the 2.

I think several people have said they'll root for them and be on the bandwagon come March. We'll root for them. They're still not on top of mind when it comes to Wisconsin teams. Hell, the first person listed off "Wisconsin teams," in the next 2 years, they totally forgot Marquette and it took how many posts until someone pointed it out?

By the way...I don't recall anyone specifically complaining about Gary. IIRC, most of the usual posters were measured(I remember a couple were POSITIVE they could have traded back to 20 or so and still gotten him. But the main thing is I remember how many people were upset the 'Brilliant' Pats took Chase Winovich went in the 3rd round and we got the lesser of the two Michigan pass rushers at #12. Maybe a reminder for some that it's good to step back and now zero in so much on each game and take a look at the larger picture; https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/former-dolphins-patriots-de-chase-winovich-retires

Also keep in mind Barry wasn't his first choice. He was also forced to keep Pettine an additional year and wanted to hire Rizzi, the STs Guru that the Saints ended up paying like an NFL Coach. And also that this was a 6 win team when he took over. So we know that twice he didn't have complete autonomy over his Coordinators and a third he didn't get the Coordinator he wanted. I think these are growing pains made worse by again losing Bakh...Jenkins hasn't been back to normal and their young WRers/TEs look talented, but they're just young. As for him not being a "Sean McVay" hire, McVay was 5-12 last year. The Packers trounced him pretty good in the playoffs. If we had a healthy Bakh...I think MLF has a SB and all the cache, but it's a bit funny the degree of certainty we've got now that MLF ISN'T the guy. No, not a chance on McCarthy. I really doubt we're high enough to pick Maye and it'd be sillly...IMO, to give up on him with this youth and a terrible OL ONE season in. I guess you consider it if you can get Caleb Williams...maybe Maye, but nobody else is worth it. It also helps to really understand the problems, not just "offense sucks-QB sucks-coach sucks." Love has done enough that it's obvious he's capable of being a high-end starter. He's also struggled at times as....I think pretty much everyone expected. If you can't get one of the top 2...and I don't see how it's possible to finish below Chicago and Carolina, so it's really just the one at that point(and if Chicago is 1 and 2, they'd be wise to trade #2 to a team that needs Maye which means giving up future 1sts and less likely to be to GB) again, Other than that, you draft one of the OTs. At least one of the OTs and I'd draft Two in this class. Anyway, an actual breakdown on how 'bad' Love was.

Yeah, we talked about this a lot. I was hoping to see a OT drafted this past year, but understood this wasn't a great class and when Johnson went 6th overall, it became a long shot. I liked Wright...I like him even more now, I think Chicago hit there, but I wasn't sold at the time on a guy who's a RT only(I would guess he could play LT, but he's clearly more suited to RT). Broderick Jones is looking good, but this class is to OT what the '83 class was to QBs. I wouldn't "just" spend a 1st and a 4th on the OL. Ideally, I'd take Alt or Fashanu, both guys who are plug and play type players who could be PB and in Fashanu's case, an AP very early on in his career. And both fit this outside zone scheme perfectly. But you've also got guys like Mims, Fuaga, Latham, Barton(who's more versatile and probably more like a Tom type who can play all 5 spots)...you can go down and list 8 or 9 guys before you get to Jordan Morgan, a guy projected to be a 1st rounder last year before a torn ACL. So either take those 2nds, move back into the 1st around ~20 and get a guy like Mims, a big, monster who's agile and can move to play RT or see who's there in the 2nd. Morgan(and Barton) is the prototypical Packers type OL...the only problem with that, when you're not getting the premier talent, they're usually going to be much better in one aspect of the game and lacking in the other. We've prioritized pass blocking for obvious reasons, but a lot of these guys can do both. An OL next year of Alt/Jenkins/Tom/Myers-Walker-? with Mims or Fuaga at RT should solve your OL issues for the foreseeable future. Now...IF we're actually bad enough to be in position to draft a guy like Maye or Williams...I guess you'd have to but I have trouble envisioning a scenario in which we're bad enough that we end up with a top 3-4 pick and I also think a disproportionate amount of the blame has fallen on Love. I'd also disagree with regard to Walker. I don't think he jumped Tom. We went into the season with Tom having won a starting job, Bakh looked healthy and played well week 1 and Walker spent the whole pre-season preparing to be his backup. Obviously, there was the expectation he'd play some, but I think when Bakhtiari went down, it just made much more sense to keep Tom where he was, Walker at LT rather than ask each to play the other side. I also take your point with regard to Walker...I just think this class is so abnormally loaded with offensive tackle talent, rather than a 'wait and see,' type approach, I'd rather be aggressive. Lets change the identify of this team FINALLY. Even when we've been good, it's been a while since we've been a team that just dominated the LOS. For a while, Sitton, Linsley and Lang could certainly create holes inside with Bulaga and Bakhtiari outside. I hope Walker or Caleb Jones...who I'm a fan of, or Luke Tenuta...a guy the Packers are high on, I hope ONE of them comes on so strong they allow the Packers to be a bit more patient with the other OT(I think we all agree if one of the top guys is there in Rd1 we take him). It's just like a cheat code if you can throw out an OL like Philly has or Dallas has/had, the 49ers have. It takes sooo much pressure off the QB, it takes so much pressure off the RBs, your defense as you're not going 3 and out nearly as often. It opens up your entire playbooks. We can't do a damn thing right now. Any play that's a little slower developing is getting rushed and Love doesn't have the time to look off safeties. And it's not like we haven't seen what Love CAN do when he's playing vs a good secondary with time in the pocket. Chicago, ATL and NO, the later two both with good secondaries, but poor pass rushes, he sat back there for 3-4 seconds and looked calm, and patient and went through his reads and consistently made big throws on 3rd down. A dominant OL DRASTICALLY reduces the type of talent you need at QB. Brock Purdy is a nice player, but I will not be convinced he's a better or more talented player than Jordan Love...but he's certainly playing a much higher level. Beyond that, I don't see many needs on this team other than the OL. A new, more aggressive DC pushes this defense into the top 5, particularly if you have an OL that can run block. OL-Obviously #1 S-I'd let the season play out, but we finally start to have cap room and as good as this draft is in OT, Safety is the best position for Free Agency. Kameren Curl, the top graded under 25 player by PFF is a FA(estimates at 4/60). Budda Baker will be 28 years old, but is a legitimate super star. Antonio Winfield is one of my favorite players. His Dad was such a pain in the arse in Minnesota and he's the same in TB. He's tough, smart, very good in coverage. Kyle Dugger, like Curl, a bigger, more physical player. Jeremy Chinn, an interesting player if you were to bring in Jim Leonhard and want that bigger, physical safety. Jayron Kearse would be a cheap option. And I think Savage has really been good. The biggest issue is safeties just don't have the same value. RB-You definitely need a RB or 2. I think Emanuel Wilson will end up being a really good player. Aaron Jones will likely be back one more year, but a guy like Blake Corum, or the kid from Memphis, Watson. He's very similar to Antonio Gibson. These are 4th/5th round guys. MLBer-Smael Mondon is a guy I love from watching UGA to see Mims and Van Pran. He's stepped in for Quay Walker and you can see it. Not as physical, every bit as athletic, maybe a bit better in coverage. DE-You ALWAYS want DE. If Kris Jenkins would be an ideal pick. Culllen's nephew, he's a 2nd-3rd rd prospect. I'd just argue that when talking about which positions are a bigger priority, fixing this OL could potentially be the difference in the direction this entire franchise goes. If you have a weakness at safety and you have to start Ford and Douglas or whomever, you need your pass rush to be better and your CBs. Love's future, the guy we went all in on and created this chasm with Rodgers over, his future could depend on what we do with the OL this year.