BrewerFan

I think it's really just an issue of a bad OL and a young/inexperienced QB. I'd also guess this is pretty common. Breaking all this down is helpful, but my concern with Love at this point, we have played 1 defense that I think is a good defense(Det) and even that is hardly elite and so I think we should weigh that vs what has been a solid start( a really good start before the 3 INT LV game). I think he's shown enough to get another year if the season ended today. I guess if we're really struggling the rest of the year maybe we find ourselves in a position to move up for a Drake Maye, but...that seems unlikely. There are too many other teams that are far, far worse than us. Denver, Chi(Car), AZ, NYG, NE. And we've still got a pretty easy schedule. This Denver game may actually be a big one for draft position(not that I'm rooting for that at this point, just an observation.

I haven't seen any Jones trade rumors. Everytime we speculate about him leaving(FA) or being traded or cut he takes less money to play in GB. I don't think the savings is enough to want to try and trade him. You save minimal money with his cut in base salary this year and next year you save ~5.3 if you cut him or trade him. Again, obviously the cap hit isn't the important number as more of that is already built in, it's the dead cap. What is the value of losing your best offensive player AND a dude who's entering Donald Driver type territory as a loyal and believed player? What do you think we're getting for him at this point? He's 29...the Bills would be one of the teams in most need of a back, maybe Miami, Baltimore. And what is the harm to Love if we do this? It'd better be at least a 3rd and I don't really think that's what we're getting. James Robinson was a good back in 2020 and nothing much sense. Give me Emanuel Wilson over Robinson or Dillon at this point. There must be a problem with his pass pro or something. His running is just better than Taylor or Dillon.

He's not gonna be Jrue, but he is pretty good at playing the passing lanes and he's got quick hands. He's gonna get bullied and he's not capable of defending a Luka or whoever, but I think he'll play better when we need him to. Sorta like how Durant could play D for stretches(not that good) or how Harden...SOMEHOW turned it on again, for stretches in the playoffs. The one thing I don't think is a great idea...particularly in the pre-season, having Dame set picks for Giannis. I get you want to give that look and maybe go to it in games on occasion, but he doesn't need to be out there taking on the Aaron Gordon's running through the picks or Grant Williams(whoever's guarding Giannis). We've seen that...lets put that away for...May, June...I'd like to see the big4 getting through the season missing fewer than 82 games combined. Feels like a good measure.

That is wildly mischaracterizing your comments about Dame. You literally started out with "Not a fan of Dame's game," and then...again, just to reiterate, you described Jrue Holiday almost to a T with what you want Dame to become. Again, not argued...BUT scoring 32 PPG as an efficient scorer is impressive. Yes. Making it all the most impressive he went for 32/7.5 last year with so little talent around him. https://theathletic.com/4908015/2023/09/28/damian-lillard-bucks-offense-changes-expectations-analysis/ Yes, but your inference that he doesn't create for ever...should be disproven that much more given he was still among the best in the league in that regard(top 20) and he played for a team with so few offensive threats. It's much more than that. Read the Athletic's article. It may be enlightening. Even just a 30 foot 3 is...huge to be able to take. If you can hit shots 7 feet behind the line, you're putting ridiculous strain on the defense and that's before you even bring Giannis, Middleton...Brook AND then Pat, Beasley, Marjon, Crowder...whoever. That's 3 guys who've been really good shooters and a 4th who's got a nice looking shot and is a slasher and this is opening up lanes like the 90s Cowboys for him. Yes...I'm sure that'll be something they work on. ADDING some facets to his game or better team defense is an ENTIRELY different thing than saying, "that thing that's made Dame one of the greatest players of all time? No more of that, we want him to turn into John Stockton."

I get that, but as we're not privy to that information and just guessing what the best starting 5 would be...you'd think Essegian would actually be the priority. He could easily be looking at leaving for the NBA after this year with his quick shot and how good of a shooter he is. He was just smothered last year. Kinda reminded me of old school BB(which...I guess is obvious with UW) but the back screens and multiple screens, the off-ball movement just so he could catch and shoot on a tough shot where he was doing that JJ Reddick, leaving the floor before he actually got the ball thing curling around that screen. If he's given any space this year, I expect him to be a 40+% 3 point shooter. And he was a Freshmen. So I could see why you'd want to promise a starting spot, but I think he'd be one of the guys you'd want to ensure doesn't transfer out upon losing his starting spot. Yeah, I get that, but Essegian in particular is such a good shooter and given their struggles last year, he was forced to take so many bad shots(or maybe tough shots would be a better way to put it) because he was clearly the guy they were trying to get it to, you're just putting yourself in a similar situation again. Klesmit can be the guy who comes in and scores. He was an efficient shooter. The Elite 8 team and the team '14-15 team was a little different. They were full of guys with a lot of starting experience. In the year they lost in the Finals, they had I think 5 or 6 Srs on that team who'd gotten a lot of PT. IDK, feels like Klesmit is a better fit coming off the bench and then staggering Storr and Essegian's minutes...but we'll see.

I don't follow Badgers BB like other sports, but it seems to me like Essegian HAS to be one of the 5 best players, right? Storr looks like a big get, a great shooter as well, but ideally you'd go with Chuckie and those. That seems like a nice starting 5 to me and a lot of energy coming off the bench.

Exactly. Ideally, you'll just play with good ball movement. Lopez at the FT line, some ball movement, or one of the three penetrating and kicking it out. But this isn't gonna be John Stockton and Malone(it may be in the efficiency in which they score or work the Pick and Roll, but that's about it). Yeah, and you still haven't accounted for Brook or...Connaughton or whoever else is on the floor. If we're not the #1 offense in the league by a...fairly large margin, it's a problem. Now what happens come playoff time, if that offense is enough to overcome the drop off in defense, we'll see. But the idea you turn Dame into a version of Jrue is like trading in your F150, getting a Bugatti Chiron and then trying to use that to pull your point or...whatever. It kinda makes it pointless. They'll mesh just fine.

Well...first of all, I said nothing about him scoring 30 either way. I said if you wanted a guy to score 20 PPG, DEFEND and facilitate, you had that in Jrue. You got Dame because he's one of the best shooters ever. And sure, it's not the same on a bad team. He's also done it on a good team. He had a .564 Efg% last year. Giannis was .572 Efg%. So despite everyone knowing who was going to take the shot. That was the point behind Jrue's shooting % the 3 years with Giannis vs without him. And no, absolutely do NOT get rid of those long 3's. That is a HUGE part of the reason we got him. 35% from 35 feet last year(significantly better than Steph). That forces the defense to come ALL the way out and guard him past the line and...is literally one of the main things that makes him so effective. The whole point of Dame and Giannis is they're the best(*or close to) at each ends of the offensive spectrum and they compliment each other so well. I can't imagine why you'd trade for a top 75 all time player(still playing at his prime...though toward the end of it) and then ask him to do exactly what the last guy we had did. And if he could do the things Jrue did on top of his offensive game then he'd be...hell, I can't think of who he'd be. I don't think there's ever been a player who could shooter like Dame and defend like Jrue.

Well, it's pre-season. It's really just meant to get their legs back, get some cohesion as a team. But the thing you're looking for? 20, DEFEND(he can't) and work on his passing skills(that he can do)...that's exactly what we just traded away. What's more, the player we traded FOR, Dame averaged .371% from 3(on 10.7 per game) vs Jrue who shot 39.5% on 5.3. Now...the good news, Jrue the 3 years prior to playing for the Bucks shot .338% from 3. So if he went from roughly 34% to 40%, I think Dame can go from 37% to 43%. I don't think that's hard to imagine at all. More importantly, Dame is dangerous off the dribble and he is going to be like Moses and part the seas for Middleton. Defenses will have to focus SO much energy on Giannis and Dame, Middleton can almost be a Kyle Korver type player for the most part with stretches where he's going to take over. We should have realistic expectations. Dame won't be a good defender. Hopefully at time he can be a competent one or disrupt passing lanes, but he's not going to be a good one. He's not a traditional lead guard. He's looking to score. That's the trade off we made. Less perimeter defense for an elite scoring option. This is why Beauchamp and Jackson are so important. One was a pretty decent defender as a rookie and the other I think will come in and be a contributor right out of the gate in Jackson. I know Cheeze said he doesn't think Marjon or Jackson will start. I don't think Jackson will(though I think he could, he fits with the offense)...but I think it makes the most sense to have Beauchamp start. Particularly if he's made the improvements Giannis and company have said he specifically has made. His defense, energy and off-ball movement, constant cutting, he's a good fit with the starters IMO. But Pat also just fits every situation.

I don't think that's true. I think for the year or two leading up to the Hader trade, there were people using Chapman as a comp and there were a LOT more people saying...those people were expecting way too much and that was an outlier. I don't think you turn two years of a reliever(even a really good one) into a 19 year old who while he did undergo TJ, a relatively normal procedure now, but a 19 year old with a FB that hits 100, elite command, a plus slider and then a good change and at least an average 4th pitch. That's a future ace. I also wasn't using the trade simulator, I don't think it's accurate, so...that doesn't seem relevant, beyond the fact that you're likely citing it because it shows a pretty significant disparity in Painter's value and Wiliams(or even Abel).

Correct.

I don't agree. I've been more impressed with him. He's not putting a foot in the ground like...again, a Blake Corum, but he uses that jump cut very effectively and it keeps his shoulders out in front of him, running behind his pads and he's as quick as more 200 LB backs. I just don't love how we run this offense yet. It's an ugly transition and whatever we end up doing transitioning from a more 2 TE type of offense, the old I formation or single back to a more spread, it still starts with a dominant OL and we're still just not there yet. It's still waay too early to make any larger declarations on the direction of the program. We're just in a weird spot and this isn't going to be an immediate turnaround. Even Colorado which got a ton of transfers is 4-3 and lost to a mediocre Stanford team(after being up 29-0).

Allen got absolutely ROCKED on that play...and if he got hit right, I could see that being one of those hits where you're arm goes numb. I don't think Allen's stock is being helped by this season, but through no fault of his own. I would not compare him to Dillon. He's a more decisive runner, he hits the hole harder, he's also so much lighter on his feet. He just doesn't have much room, but there was one 4 yard run behind the LG, two jump cuts, kept his feet under him, his balance, picked up 4-5 when it was blocked for 1-2 maybe. He's a good back. I wouldn't spend a 2nd on him because...I really think Wilson is a good back and he's more of a power back and I'd prefer 2-3 smaller backs. Guys like Irvin from Oregon or Corum from Michgan looked like a great fit. But the only similarity I see between Dillon and Allen is they're big. Allen has much quicker feet and more patience so far as I can tell.

Yeah, a lot of people starting whining because I said I didn't know if Purdy was that good or if SF was just that loaded and that a lot of QBs would be excelling with that OL, RBs, TEs, WRers and play calling. And...I'm not saying I was proven right or that you're right...but I know it's WAY too early to say he's Joe Montana(which has been a very real and common comparison).

Are we suggesting Abel or Painter for Burnes AND Williams or is this just Williams? I suggested Williams because I thought it might push a team over the top on a trade for a pitcher of that caliber, but if you're saying just for Williams, this kinda feels like the Hader proposals all over again. Painter was the top pitching prospect in Baseball before TJ this past year(which...we all know is relatively safe and he's on his way back from). He's kinda like how we hope Misiorowski develops. Triple Digit velo, carries it deep, 65 command, 3 potential plus pitching... and Abel isn't far behind. Those are the exact pitchers I'd be targeting. Just one of them and then a couple lottery tickets for Burnes+Williams, but again, I don't think we get anywhere near that for just Williams. This as well. We traded Hader...who was a better, more dominant reliever for Gasser...who's developed into a fringe top 100 pitcher, and Ruiz who's a nice player, and we got lucky that the As wanted him involved in the Contreras trade(and then Rogers who became redundant and Lamet who was a salary dump), but looking at that package, it doesn't approximate the value of a top ~25 power hitting 3B prospect with a 70 arm. I think if we trade them individually, we should probably prepare ourselves for an underwhelming return for Williams. I'd be happy if the Rangers sent up Lieter for Williams. He pitches in an incredibly hitter friendly league, has big time stuff, was a top 100 prospect and could slide in as a top of the rotation type pitcher...after the "lab," goes to work on him, or Porter. But hey, if we can get any of these packages for Williams and then turn around and give Uribe a Aaron Ashby type contract extension. Make it 6 years 24M and 2 option years(say 10/14 for inflation) and I think we're better off in the short term and better off in the long term. He is a guy who only signed for 85K, so...certainly has ample reason to jump at the potential of 24M guaranteed while the Brewers get their closer through his prime years(and you increase his trade value if you're looking to do something down the road).

This is...incredibly difficult to guess, BUT, Bucks-Giannis hasn't bolted yet, but he's 31 and has already...pretty much said he's signing an extension. 2 more years is this year with Dame and then a 2nd with Dame. If Marjon is really the guy making the huge jump Giannis, Dame and Khris are saying, they'll still be among the favorites for a title, but they'll be walking a real tight line with Lopez, Middleton(PO) potential FAs. This was meant to be the year they were creating cap enough space for another Max deal. Don't think that works with the Dame trade, but, he probably opts out of the final year and signs for another ~3 years. I don't know, but Giannis will be young enough to keep them in it, but in decline. Brewers-One of the most exciting young teams in the league. Similar to the 07-08 Brewers, anticipation building with Chourio hopefully becoming the star(like Prince, Braun) and they'll have other hitters. If they're a ~90 win team vs a true threat will come down to the left shoulder of Ashby, and the development of their pitching. A WC team seems the safest. Really good hitting and a really good BP, it hinges on the pitching. Packers- One of the most talented teams, one of the most physical, the fastest, biggest, strongest...and either like the Bears under Lovie who were a 7 win team, 13 win team, 9 win team. The QB will be the difference. If Love is a top 10 QB, I'll say a consistent 10 win team with regular SB hopes. I think they're building the right way, I think they can evaluate talent(not DCs, but individual talent and then they emphasize RAS, so when they do miss, at least they miss with big and fast). Badgers FB- A more talented team than they've been for years, but probably a 9-10 win team year in and year out due to a tough schedule. Alabama, Washington, Michigan, Ohio State and Oregon. Potential for a top 10 team if they win 3 of those games. They could lose all 5 and still be better than almost every 10 win team they've had. We'll know what it feels like to be really good Florida or Auburn type team, that is extremely talented, but in the middle of the conference. Badgers BB- Top 4 in the B1G. Ranking the biggest X-factors with regard to a Title contender it goes IMO; 1-Jordan Love(I'll assume they fix the OL and they'll have plenty of money to spend by then). 2-Brewers rotation. I think it'll be average, but it could be elite. With their bats, again, that's the difference from a 88 win team to a 100 win team. 3-Marjon and health/depth to see how much pressure they can keep off Giannis/Dame Badgers-That's so much harder to pinpoint. Obviously Mettauer, if he turns out to be a big time QB. But if I'm ranking them on chances to win a title it'd go; 1-Bucks 2-Packers 3-Brewers 4-Badgers BB 5-Badgers FB The last two(three actually) in large part due to built in disadvantages. If I was to include Marquette Basketball in there, I'd probably have them 3rd. But really, we've kinda been in a golden era of spots for Wisconsin the past ~6-8 years. No SBs, but contending. No WS, but an NLCS lost in 7, an NBA Title, an undefeated Badgers FB team that lost by 6 in the B1G Championship game, and going a BIT further back, Wisconsin BB losing to Duke.

Sure...but as I said before, I really think the College game is almost not enough of a challenge for him. I realize that sounds stupid in this context, but he made all the right decisions his Fresh year, most of last year and then he started trying to extend plays and he's passed up that 8 yard slant on 2nd and 4 and tries to get that big play down the field. Edit-think, not thank. Think Rodgers during his struggles. His OL was overmatched, his team was just not as good(Alt(LT), Fischer(RT), Estime(RB), are all exciting and played really well, but it was that defensive front that just dominated the game. And still, Williams was bouncing around. He played undisciplined, he got them out of the game and it snowballed, but the way he can throw from every platform, the way he can throw on the run...he threw a ball for a 4 yard completion that was incredible. Had a big edge in his face on a naket boot, and he throw the ball almost like a submariner and got it under and around him, hit his guy in stride from ~10 yards away. Even though it was a minimal gain, it was an impressive play. But sure, he was bad today. He also came into today with nearly 1000 drop back pass attempts and he'd thrown a total of 10 picks. So I don't know how much weight I'd put in a single game vs a career of excellence(including a Heisman).

I don't know why or if Carolina would do that. Maybe they think a big WRer for their struggling young QB would help him. I was more just curious what the opinions would be on taking a pick 2 years down the road for our most explosive offensive player who has been limited by injury, a limited route tree and if he figures it out, by the time the 2025 draft comes, you'll be paying him whatever a good WRer goes for at that point, or you'll have a freak athlete who's unreliable due to injury and inconsistent hands. I think Watson will figure it out. I think he came from just about the worst school to develop WRers, but that's the risk/reward. Generally a first another year out is equal to a 2nd in this current draft, but when you're as bad as Carolina is, that's...probably not the case.

This reminds of that old, "The same people who say X are the same people saying Y right now," and they're always diametrically opposed view points. 1-I will NOT say the Brewers "ruined his career." He's 27 years old. 2-I AM absolutely baffled why they offered him arbitration and then did not bring him up. And splitting hairs by saying, "well, he was ONLY pretty good when he came back, but he was still as hot as he'd been. We brought Mitchell up at the end of the season to give him a couple ABs. The least we could have done is at least bring him up to give him a couple weeks worth of At Bats. I think that seems wrong. I think what he does next year is immaterial to the argument being made this year. We were sooo desperate for offense and Hiura's crushing RHPing two years ago and then sits after ever productive game and sits vs most RHPing and then this year when our DHs are just atrocious, he is twiddling his thumbs in AAA. I don't care what he does now. The idea that I'd enjoy "blaming the Brewers" is silly and a weird defense.

RUMOR- Panthers have called to check on the availability of Christian Watson Hypothetically, WHAT if you could get the Panthers '25 1st rd pick for Watson? Do you make that deal? Given the absolute disaster that the Panthers appear to be at the moment...it's a huge risk, but they are going nowhere fast. It'd be easy to envision that '25 pick being a top ~5 pick. I love Watson, but as the Packers are in a BIT of a rebuild, that could come in extremely handy. It could also...maybe, possibly give them an out where they would be able to use that pick to trade down even a year later into the Arch Manning draft and have a couple premium picks there. I know this is such an distant concept and a million things could happen(and they're NOT specifically offering anything in particular at this time), I just thought it was worth asking. I'm not trading him for a 2nd, even if it's the 1st 2nd rd pick in this years draft, but a future 1st? I think I might have to take that and trust the rest of the Packers WRers. It also seems like the type of move a really forward thinking team that isn't sure if they've got their QB of the future just might make. I'll assume I'll get a resounding 'No' on this and I understand, but a team that bad, it warrants consideration.

You're crazy😂 Seriously though, I'm pretty high on Maye and have said as much on this thread and I think he goes 1-1 9 years out of 10, but I think Williams is just on another level. The worst case would be Minnesota and Chicago getting Maye and Williams. SUCH a bad year for Chicago and Minnesota to be terrible and have a very good chance at 2 of the top picks.

I don't think we need it to be Giannis and 4 shooters any longer. We have Dame who can break anyone down off the dribble, Giannis who is a menace in the open court OR in iso in the half court and Middleton who's great at catch and shoot, OR at getting to his sport and hitting a contested mid range jumper. That is the guy that everyone uses as a comp. He makes incredibly smart decisions, moves the ball, rebounds and plays great defense. I'm more than happy with him as the starting SG with Dame/Middleton/Giannis/Lopez. And you can just run an actual offense around him. Lets see Dame coming off some picks. That's something he's never done much of because he's always been so ball dominant, but I just think back to Reggie Miller or Ray Allen and they'd run multiple screens for him and that also opens up the backside as you have the pickers who people sleep on(Especially if it's a guy like Dame). Of course, the way people are gassing up Marjon, maybe he really has made that MASSIVE jump and he's the starting 2.

Not even a little crazy to me. That's been the priority...IMO, all year. It was great watching him perform well early on...but just as we should keep in mind the OL is not performing well, we should also consider who we've played or beaten. One team that's got a good front in Det and even that's not great. It has one really exceptional player and just solid depth. But ATL, Nola, Chicago and LV. That's not all that impressive. I'd give Love this year and next and as I've said in my previous post, the top priority has to be the OL, but above all that, a fair and honest evaluation of Love. He looks to me like he's going to be the answer. Couldn't have walked the ball to Watson any better, but it was tight coverage. But then you have the 1st pick where he threw into a triangle of Raiders defenders(probably a pick even if Spillane doesn't get it). And then the one to Watson...that one hurts because I think Love puts that on Watson, but he had to move in the pocket to avoid the pressure and just came back to him too late. But ultimately the only thing that's clear is that we don't have clarity yet on our QB of the future. Being capable of making throws and reliably and consistently making them are not the same.

No, the OL has not been fine, it's been bad. If I was to point to one particular starter who's been bad, without All-22 or anything else, it's Myers. He's the one who just looks lost. Newman of course was even worse, but he's not a starter. Walker hasn't been a turnstyle, but I'd argue when he DOES get beaten, he's beaten worse. Tom will get beaten on a bullrush and get walked back into Love's lap, but he has that Bakhtiari-esque ability to maintain his balance and at least give Love a chance. Walker will get beat inside and he gets beat more cleanly. I still think we've got something in Walker, but the thing you had when Bakhtiari was good, was at least one absolute rock on the OL where you could slide your protection away from him and leave him, even vs elite edge rushers, one on one. When you don't have that and you have to chip more or just help more, you're starting off at a disadvantage. Ideally, you could go and get a LT in Alt in the 1st round and then package your 2nd rd picks and move back into the 1st for a guy like Mims. I know people are more in favor of trading back, but we'll have 10 or 11 more picks this year? I think you go quality over quantity when your issues are so clear at one position of need. That'd allow Tom to settle in at Center and Walker could play RG and you have a more physical, more athletic OL that's more balanced in it's pass pro and it's run blocking. And if there's ever a year to do that, it'd be this year. And obviously those are just the two names of players who are in the top ~10-15 range and then in the ~25 range at the moment, I'm sure that'll change come draft time. Who knows who the Packers will value, but we know they didn't have a 1st round grade on Broderick Jones this year...and he had an outstanding 1st start for the Steelers this week. Also, I'm sure people will point out that Bakh was a 4th rd pick and we find OL in the later rounds. This is true, but not something I'd count on when looking at the future of our OL.

Yes. Both things can be true. Capers was a defensive genius and yet BJ Raji was in coverage for a rather memorable game. I think MLF is a good offensive coach, but I cannot defend him while Joe Barry is their DC. If it's above him, it's a sign the Packers don't fully trust him or having given him the authority to make hiring decisions and if it's his choice, then...what the hell are you doing Matt? But the scheme? Every scheme looks bad when you're losing yardage on early downs and getting behind the sticks. I don't think we should be surprised that there are issues(one play 3 receivers were within ~5-7 yards of each other down the left hash) with young players when...this entire year is about transitioning from one of the oldest teams to the youngest team in the NFL. Youth+terrible OL play and it's virtually impossible to look good as an offensive coach. Then you take out Aaron Jones, you neuter your Play Action game, you have longer developing routes and a 1st year starter(I understand it's his 4th year in the league) and...it's just not going to be good. All of this.