Game Thread (7/16/2022): Brewers (Lauer) at Giants (Cobb) - 6:15 PM CDT

[Pugger]

23 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Can we seriously file a protest with the commissioner's office or something? Like if that's how the ump is going to rationalize the call....

What did the ump say?

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 minutes ago, Pugger said:

What did the ump say?

That Gustave brought his hands up & then stopped. He never moved his hands. He stepped back off the rubber, which is of course allowed.

[brewmann04]

This team needs the break big time. Total mess and David needs to get off his duff to make a move. 

[phnxcrew]

Just saw the balk.  Granted, our hitting sucks but thats the worst call I’ve ever seen.  Counsel may have completely lost the clubhouse on this if he hasn’t lost It already.  Have an energy drink or something dude good lord 

[Pugger]

6 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

That Gustave brought his hands up & then stopped. He never moved his hands. He stepped back off the rubber, which is of course allowed.

Seriously??  OMG.  Do you suppose CC, Sterns or our esteemed owner will file a formal complaint?  It won't change anything but it might prevent another idiotic call from happening in the future.

[phnxcrew]

3 minutes ago, rondoman said:

You're an idiot. That literally never happens.

That doesn’t fly on this site.  Stop it.  No matter the context.  

[Brewcrew82]

1 minute ago, phnxcrew said:

That doesn’t fly on this site.  Stop it.  No matter the context.  

Thanks. Not sure what I did to provoke that kind of response, when you consider that umps have changed their calls after prodding by the manager many times over the history of the sport. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

5 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Thanks. Not sure what I did to provoke that kind of response, when you consider that umps have changed their calls after prodding by the manager many times over the history of the sport. 

Anyone who wants to learn about a real piece of manipulation, do some research on the walkoff grand slam by Don Money (I think '73 or '74) that was taken away after some classic theatre by Billy Martin. Gotta be something about it online I would assume.

Then fast forward to 2022, where standing up for your players is trumped by making sure you don't offend anyone.

[phnxcrew]

3 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Thanks. Not sure what I did to provoke that kind of response, when you consider that umps have changed their calls after prodding by the manager many times over the history of the sport. 

A very poorly trending team does this but I hope the new mods keep things like this under wraps.  The requirement of adult conversation has been why most of us have been here a long time.  

[DuWayne Steurer]

6 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Thanks. Not sure what I did to provoke that kind of response, when you consider that umps have changed their calls after prodding by the manager many times over the history of the sport. 

About the only time you'll ever actually see an overturned decision is when umpires confer as a crew and realize or understand they've misapplied a rule or incorrectly ruled something.  They don't just argue with a manager and go "oh yeah, you're right and I was wrong, that ball was TOTALLY fair, my bad!"  

Umps will defer to the rest of the crew for rules applications and such, but I can't recall an ump ever just changing their mind on a whimsy of an argument. 

The problem with overturning a balk is that it's entirely a judgement call, and convincing an ump that his judgement was wrong is a fools errand.

[Brewcrew82]

Just now, DuWayne Steurer said:

About the only time you'll ever actually see an overturned decision is when umpires confer as a crew and realize or understand they've misapplied a rule or incorrectly ruled something.  They don't just argue with a manager and go "oh yeah, you're right and I was wrong, that ball was TOTALLY fair, my bad!"  

Umps will defer to the rest of the crew for rules applications and such, but I can't recall an ump ever just changing their mind on a whimsy of an argument. 

Yeah, I guess this is one of those gray areas that's hard to prove unless you're actually in the conversations. It was a call that never should have been made in the first place. Especially in a 1-1 game with the bases loaded. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

3 minutes ago, DuWayne Steurer said:

About the only time you'll ever actually see an overturned decision is when umpires confer as a crew and realize or understand they've misapplied a rule or incorrectly ruled something.  They don't just argue with a manager and go "oh yeah, you're right and I was wrong, that ball was TOTALLY fair, my bad!"  

Umps will defer to the rest of the crew for rules applications and such, but I can't recall an ump ever just changing their mind on a whimsy of an argument. 

True. But the larger point (at least to me) is the idea of showing players you have their backs & will fight for them. I think many managers over the years have gone out to scream for just that reason, fully knowing a decision will not be reversed. The sad truth is we don't have that kinda guy in the dugout. At least I think it's sad.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think to call a balk at that point of a game it absolutely needs to be 100% egregious/obvious/blatant. It just......blah.  You don't make that call unless the pitcher doesn't give you any other choice.

[Jim French Stepstool]

25 minutes ago, Pugger said:

Seriously??  OMG.  Do you suppose CC, Sterns or our esteemed owner will file a formal complaint?  It won't change anything but it might prevent another idiotic call from happening in the future.

I know they realize it won't change anything. And yes, I think they should complain.

[Pugger]

The fact that the home plate ump thought our pitcher raised his hands was nuts.  The tape shows the fool needs glasses.  This kind of garbage in that situation can make fans stop watching when calls are this egregious.

[DuWayne Steurer]

3 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

True. But the larger point (at least to me) is the idea of showing players you have their backs & will fight for them. I think many managers over the years have gone out to scream for just that reason, fully knowing a decision will not be reversed. The sad truth is we don't have that kinda guy in the dugout. At least I think it's sad.

I guess (and I said this before) my thought is we don't know what kind of relationship Counsell has with his players.  Maybe (and this is obviously a hypothetical thought) that he's got a strong, tight clubhouse and his guys don't feel like he's the type of personality that going out and acting like Lou Piniella, throwing things and yelling and screaming is who he is, and they know that the type of personality he has just isn't "that guy", but who he is works for them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that yelling and screaming and arguing to argue works for some, and not for others.

For the record, I was all for Craig coming out and at least asking the ump what the actual heck he saw at that point in time to warrant the call. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 minutes ago, DuWayne Steurer said:

I guess (and I said this before) my thought is we don't know what kind of relationship Counsell has with his players.  Maybe (and this is obviously a hypothetical thought) that he's got a strong, tight clubhouse and his guys don't feel like he's the type of personality that going out and acting like Lou Piniella, throwing things and yelling and screaming is who he is, and they know that the type of personality he has just isn't "that guy", but who he is works for them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that yelling and screaming and arguing to argue works for some, and not for others.

For the record, I was all for Craig coming out and at least asking the ump what the actual heck he saw at that point in time to warrant the call. 

I think you're right that he isn't that type of guy. And if he tied to be it would probably grow old in a hurry. In this case, if he did rant I think it would be that much more effective, since it happens so seldom. The "crime has to fit the punishment", and I think this was a great fit left to rot on the side of the road.

I would venture a guess (and hope) that there is a percentage in the clubhouse that would appreciate it. Like you said though, it's a hypothetical thing.

[brewmann04]

Even if the ump didn’t make the call didn’t see this offense scoring any runs to win the game. 

[DuWayne Steurer]

My thing with coming out of the dugout "ass on fire" is this (Long-ish post warning ahead)

Craig's always struck me as a thoughtful dude, who puts a fair amount of thought process into what he does, what he says, and he's not the type of guy to respond to a lot of things emotionally.  He doesn't strike me as a "trust the gut" type guy who bases things on how he feels, but trusts the data and facts that he has at his disposal.  I think those are a good part of the reason he's been a successful manager.  I'm glad we have a manager who chooses to be thoughtful in how he reacts and responds to things.

Counsell seems like (again..... I could be completely wrong here!) the type of dude that understands that 2-3-4 times a night, an umpire gets a close play, or a judgement call wrong, and instead of going and acting like a childish man baby and throwing hats and kicking dirt and screaming at someone, he (usually) reacts in a pretty calm manner.  Do more umpires respect Counsell because of this? I honestly don't know.  I have no idea. If I was an umpire, I'd have more respect for a guy like Counsell that someone like Tony LaRussa or the like.

I'm sure there are those who think that the umps just abuse us because he "lets it go".  I honestly doubt that to be the case. But, none of us know what actually goes on.... unless they have a mic'd up special that comes out sometime soon.  

If I were a betting man, I'm sure Counsell's feeling some pressure based on how the team is performing.  He's not a fiery "RAH RAH RAH!" guy. Just because he doesn't look pissed about a balk call doesn't mean he's not. I think sometimes we all have a habit of drawing too much conclusion from facial expressions for the 2-3 seconds that the camera hangs on a guy, or what we want to think they should be feeling or not feeling. 

[treego14]

7 minutes ago, DuWayne Steurer said:

My thing with coming out of the dugout "ass on fire" is this (Long-ish post warning ahead)

Craig's always struck me as a thoughtful dude, who puts a fair amount of thought process into what he does, what he says, and he's not the type of guy to respond to a lot of things emotionally.  He doesn't strike me as a "trust the gut" type guy who bases things on how he feels, but trusts the data and facts that he has at his disposal.  I think those are a good part of the reason he's been a successful manager.  I'm glad we have a manager who chooses to be thoughtful in how he reacts and responds to things.

Counsell seems like (again..... I could be completely wrong here!) the type of dude that understands that 2-3-4 times a night, an umpire gets a close play, or a judgement call wrong, and instead of going and acting like a childish man baby and throwing hats and kicking dirt and screaming at someone, he (usually) reacts in a pretty calm manner.  Do more umpires respect Counsell because of this? I honestly don't know.  I have no idea. If I was an umpire, I'd have more respect for a guy like Counsell that someone like Tony LaRussa or the like.

I'm sure there are those who think that the umps just abuse us because he "lets it go".  I honestly doubt that to be the case. But, none of us know what actually goes on.... unless they have a mic'd up special that comes out sometime soon.  

If I were a betting man, I'm sure Counsell's feeling some pressure based on how the team is performing.  He's not a fiery "RAH RAH RAH!" guy. Just because he doesn't look pissed about a balk call doesn't mean he's not. I think sometimes we all have a habit of drawing too much conclusion from facial expressions for the 2-3 seconds that the camera hangs on a guy, or what we want to think they should be feeling or not feeling. 

All that said, I have seen Counsell blow his top in the past, AND that he didn't do it here is completely inexplicable!

[Jim French Stepstool]

DuWayne, I think you read him correctly. Like Treego said though, he has blown his top in the past. Given his demeanor, it's a pretty significant thing when he does, due to the rarity. IMO this instance warranted it.

[BruisedCrew]

8 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Couldn't you say the same thing for us and bats though?

Because the Brewers are loaded with average hitters in their lineup, and true impact bats are hard to come by, it’s going to be hard for them to make significant improvements there. 
 

There probably will be third and fourth starting pitchers available and picking up someone like that could significantly prop up the Cardinals rotation. 
 

I also think the Cardinals have more resources to go after a higher end pitcher than the Brewers have to chase a real impact bat. If there were someone like Max Scherzer available this year I could see the Cards making a strong run for him. 
 

My expectation is that the Cardinals will be able to do more to improve themselves at the deadline than the Brewers, whose main hope is for Peralta to come back and be effective and some current hitters to start producing more. We’ll be finding out soon. 

[Pugger]

Did anyone hear what CC had to say about the "balk" in his post game presser?

[BigDaddy1974]

Listening to BA on the broadcast he really avoids making any critical comment about this sham of a balk call. Is anyone willing to call out the umpire who made a sham of a call? It is so irritating when our media people and team personnel refuse to make a point.